There's no OSAS

[Fisher]

I copied this from post number 124 which is from you:

I think it is safe to say that you DID Say that a believer has a license to sin without fear of going to hell.

Peace
James

If I cannot do good works to get saved, then how can I do bad works to be unsaved?
You must realize that salvation is completely of God, NOT man in any way. Our faith is merely a key which unlocks God’s saving grace. Salvation is a supernatural act of God in response to our faith. I did not save myself, Jesus saved me. If I did nothing to earn salvation, then how can I do something bad to lose it. Furthermore, the Bible clearly teaches that eternal life is a gift. As a matter of FACT, the Bible even calls our salvation a FREE GIFT.

“For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.” -Romans 5:6

 

[JRKH]

If I cannot do good works to get saved, then how can I do bad works to be unsaved?

If one Praises God today and keeps his commandments and professes Christ as Saviour, and teaches others to do so you believe that person to be forever saved.
If next week this same person fails in their faith to the point that he discards God’s commandments. Curses God and teaches others to curse God you believe that person to still be saved?
Then why does the early Church not teach this?
Why Does James admonish the Brothers to avoid possible condemnation in James 5:9-12?
Why does Peter Tell us that the Devil is always looking for someone to devour in 1 Peter 5:8?
Why Does Jesus Himself tell us in the Parable of the Seeds that some will recieve the word but then die in spirit as among the brambles and rocks?

You must realize that salvation is completely of God, NOT man in any way.

No one is arguing that God saves and that we rely completely on His mercy. But to say that there is no effort required on our part is to sin in pride. To say that we can sin without fear of hell to mislead others into danger.

I would challenge you to show any Catholic Church doctrine that says that man can save himself. That says that we are anything but totally dependant upon God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Our faith is merely a key which unlocks God’s saving grace. Salvation is a supernatural act of God in response to our faith.

It’s interesting that you speak of faith being a Key but then deny that my effort to use that key is a work that in anyway helps to unlock God’s grace. You also say that God responds to our faith but can we have true faith without effort which is works? After all, it is written that, “Faith without works is dead.”

I did not save myself, Jesus saved me.

Alleluia - Praise God.

If I did nothing to earn salvation, then how can I do something bad to lose it.

In fact you did do something to “earn salvation”. You opened yourself up to God - You turned toward God, and used the Key of faith so that He could respond to your faith.
How many times did Jesus say to someone “Your faith has saved you”? Is this not effort on our part? Is this not a work in concert with Salvation?

Furthermore, the Bible clearly teaches that eternal life is a gift. As a matter of FACT, the Bible even calls our salvation a FREE GIFT.

No argument.

I would like to ask you one additional question. I do not intend this to spark different debate, or to derail the thread, so I would ask others to withold comment on this until Fisher can answer and I can respond.
Do you, Fisher, believe Catholics to be “Saved” Christians?

Peace
James

 

[seetiger33]

I wonder how protestants explain this passage:
Mtt 10,22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
To the end…
Almost 5 centuries of contradicting the Scripture is definitely too much.
God bless.

That is exactly the point. The ones that dont stand till the end where never saved to begin with.
The demons themselves know who God is and the power of his son Jesus Christ. They also know the poer Jesus has to change lives. That is why they work overtime to disrupt that.
So you can know Christ from a knowledge standpoint but knowledge alone dont save. Only “by grace through faith”

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

1John005:013 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
005:014** And this is the confidence that we have in him**, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

Amen.

But where does it say in either of those scripture verses that once you are ‘saved’ that you have 100% assurance of salvation?

In 1 John 4:7 it says this:
“[7]Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God.”

Why does John say that he who loves, not “faith’s”, but loves is born of God and knows God?

And in 1 John 4:8 it says this:
“[8] He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.”

John says very explicitly here that if we do not love we do not know God. If we do not know God because of our inability to love then how can we be ‘saved’?

 

[Phil12123]

1) What if the “standing” does not produce the “walk”?

When you receive God’s gift of eternal life, you have passed from death to life (John 5:24). Before receiving life, you are dead (spiritually) and cannot “walk.” When you receive life (“standing”), you can walk for the first time, though as a baby Christian it is more like a crawl. But the standing always produces something, a crawl or a walk or a run, something. If there is no “walk” or something that evidences new life, there is likely no standing.

2) Would you classify "walking” as work?

It is the work referred to in Eph. 2:10, but that is not work that gets anyone the Gift (in verses 8 and 9) or helps them keep it or maintain it. It is the product of it.

3) If I throw away a gift do I still have the Gift?

No, of course not.

I am not making my standing, I am maintaining it, by doing “The work of the Father”. Did Jesus tell us to hop on the cart of salvation or did he say take up your cross?

**I can only reiterate what I already said:

…you agree that your standing is a Gift from God, by His mercy and grace, but that you only keep it by your doing things like not willfully sinning, keeping the commandments, obeying Him, confessing Him, and doing His work. So, you are making your standing, a Gift from God, dependent on your walk, as if it is something you must earn or be worthy of keeping or having in the first place. That is wrong and unscriptural. None of us sinners will ever be worthy of His wonderful gift of salvation.

What did you do on December 26th to “maintain” or “keep” all the Christmas gifts you received the previous day? Nothing!!! They were yours for good the day you received them. None of the givers are checking up on you today to see if you’re still “worthy” of having them, with some sort of threat that if you aren’t, you’re going to lose those gifts. Look—they were either gifts or not. Don’t you see how you have changed God’s gift into a non-gift by your way of thinking? You make it, ultimately, a reward, rather than a gift. And I will repeat, that is wrong and unscriptural. Actually, it is also quite simply illogical, which Paul shows in Rom. 4:4-5 and 11:6.**

I would ask though if you believe there are people who “Cry Lord Lord” but are unworthy of entering into heaven?

All sinners who have not received God’s free gift of forgiveness and eternal life are “unworthy” of entering heaven. That includes everyone who is trusting in their own good works to get them in, rather than in Christ’s Work of redemption on their behalf at Calvary. A person can cast of demons and do many wonderful works in Christ’s name and still be told by Him, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoer.” How? By their trusting in those works, rather than His Work. They may even be doing those works out of good motives, like trying to show they are His disciples or trying to “take up their cross” etc. That would make no difference because none of that earns anyone forgiveness, which must be received as a free gift or it is not received at all.

Also, do you see, “walking” and “becoming Christlike” as work or not?

I see them both as the work of God in and through us (Phil 2:13; Heb. 13:20-21).

Thank you for recognizing that there are verses supporting works (actions) as a part of the salvation process.

I never said that, calling it, “the salvation process.” Paul in Eph. 2:8 tells the Ephesian Christians that they “have been saved” past tense. You reject that and make it into a long “process” with no certainty of outcome until after death and judgment. That is because you, in effect, reject being saved as a matter of receiving a gift. You make it a reward not to be received (or if received, not to be kept) until after a life that is deserving of it based on your works.

I absolutely agree that the HS does not send contradictory messages and these things must be reconcilable. In fact they were reconsiled centuries ago by the very earliest Catholic Church teachings.

Can you quote from some of “the very earliest Catholic Church teachings” that agree with scriptures that say salvation is a free gift of God? Show me what they say about how getting to heaven is a matter of receiving a free gift.

The very fact that there are verses opposed to OSAS makes the case for us. If a passive, one time acceptance of a gift were all it took, then why do these verses exist? Why does Jesus constantly exhort his followers to do more; to “take up their cross”?

**Verses that exhort one to live a godly life do not really oppose OSAS, because doing so is not what saves anyone; it simply pleases God, which any child of God should seek to do. Consider your own earthly children. You admonish them and encourage them to obey you and please you, not so that they can become your children; they already are. That is their standing and does not change. However, their behavior does change, daily. But that behavior is not what makes them your children. They were born into your family, something they had nothing to do with. When a person is born into God’s family by receiving Christ (John 1:12-13), he acquires a spiritual status or standing that is eternal since he receives eternal life. His later behavior does not affect that any more than his initial behavior deserved or produced it.

Peace
**

 

[Phil12123]

A person can cast of demons and do many wonderful works in Christ’s name and still be told by Him, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoer.”

Correction… “cast out demons” etc.

 

[wisdomseeker]

When you receive God’s gift of eternal life, you have passed from death to life (John 5:24). Before receiving life, you are dead (spiritually) and cannot “walk.” When you receive life (“standing”), you can walk for the first time, though as a baby Christian it is more like a crawl. But the standing always produces something, a crawl or a walk or a run, something. If there is no “walk” or something that evidences new life, there is likely no standing.

It is the work referred to in Eph. 2:10, but that is not work that gets anyone the Gift (in verses 8 and 9) or helps them keep it or maintain it. It is the product of it.

No, of course not.

**I can only reiterate what I already said:

…you agree that your standing is a Gift from God, by His mercy and grace, but that you only keep it** by your doing things like not willfully sinning, keeping the commandments, obeying Him, confessing Him, and doing His work. So, you are making your standing, a Gift from God, dependent on your walk, as if it is something you must earn or be worthy of keeping or having in the first place. That is wrong and unscriptural. None of us sinners will ever be worthy of His wonderful gift of salvation.

What did you do on December 26th to “maintain” or “keep” all the Christmas gifts you received the previous day? Nothing!!! They were yours for good the day you received them. None of the givers are checking up on you today to see if you’re still “worthy” of having them, with some sort of threat that if you aren’t, you’re going to lose those gifts. Look—they were either gifts or not. Don’t you see how you have changed God’s gift into a non-gift by your way of thinking? You make it, ultimately, a reward, rather than a gift. And I will repeat, that is wrong and unscriptural. Actually, it is also quite simply illogical, which Paul shows in Rom. 4:4-5 and 11:6.

All sinners who have not received God’s free gift of forgiveness and eternal life are “unworthy” of entering heaven. That includes everyone who is trusting in their own good works to get them in, rather than in Christ’s Work of redemption on their behalf at Calvary. A person can cast of demons and do many wonderful works in Christ’s name and still be told by Him, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoer.” How? By their trusting in those works, rather than His Work. They may even be doing those works out of good motives, like trying to show they are His disciples or trying to “take up their cross” etc. That would make no difference because none of that earns anyone forgiveness, which must be received as a free gift or it is not received at all.

I see them both as the work of God in and through us (Phil 2:13; Heb. 13:20-21).

I never said that, calling it, “the salvation process.” Paul in Eph. 2:8 tells the Ephesian Christians that they “have been saved” past tense. You reject that and make it into a long “process” with no certainty of outcome until after death and judgment. That is because you, in effect, reject being saved as a matter of receiving a gift. You make it a reward not to be received (or if received, not to be kept) until after a life that is deserving of it based on your works.

Can you quote from some of “the very earliest Catholic Church teachings” that agree with scriptures that say salvation is a free gift of God? Show me what they say about how getting to heaven is a matter of receiving a free gift.

Verses that exhort one to live a godly life do not really oppose OSAS, because doing so is not what saves anyone; it simply pleases God, which any child of God should seek to do. Consider your own earthly children. You admonish them and encourage them to obey you and please you, not so that they can become your children; they already are. That is their standing and does not change. However, their behavior does change, daily. But that behavior is not what makes them your children. They were born into your family, something they had nothing to do with. When a person is born into God’s family by receiving Christ (John 1:12-13), he acquires a spiritual status or standing that is eternal since he receives eternal life. His later behavior does not affect that any more than his initial behavior deserved or produced it.

Peace

i dont think nobody in here is saying that salvation is not a gift from God alone. you are confused on this matter. now i ask you can you condenm catholics for doing good?

here is an example for you: Lazarus and the rich man. the rich man went to hell, why? if salvation is a free gift to all than why this gift did not reach the rich man?

if it is a free gift, in the way you believe, than why in the judgement day Jesus mentions works that we did and to those with faith alone were cast out?

you see there is much more than you can ever understand.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by Fisher forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
1John005:013 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
005:014** And this is the confidence that we have in him**, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

Those verses do not stand alone to prove a point. They point back to “These Things have I written” which is everything in that particular book prior to verse 5:13. So read the entire book of 1 John.

 

[Phil12123]

I think that being in a state of grace has nothing to do with “luck”. On the contrary, one must work hard at remaining in a state of grace.

**We must have different definitions of “grace” because what you say is self-contradictory— “work hard” to remain in a state of “grace”???

Paul taught the truth when he said:**

"But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."

**Grace and works are mutually exclusive. If you have one, you don’t have the other. No one can “work hard” to maintain grace.

What I think you mean is you have to work hard not to sin, because in your thinking, if you sin (and especially if it’s mortal sin), you lose your “salvation” and are on your way to hell if you don’t get to the priest in time to confess and get absolution. Since you have no security, least of which “eternal security,” you are “in” a state of “grace” or “out” of it, depending on your sinning and confessing. In one minute, out the next. Back in, back out. So you can be “saved” and lost again and saved again, millions of times before you ever die and face the judgment. Then it is only your hope that the LAST state, at death, is IN and not OUT. And you think that is scriptural and the truth???

And to top it all off, you think your works will keep you IN or lessen your chances of being OUT at death. NOT!!!**

There is no distinction between Christ and His church, so depending on Jesus means depending on His Church. This does not mean that it is not Jesus that saves. The Church is the normative means by which He has chosen to save us.

No, depending on, or trusting in, Jesus, is exactly that and no more. Look at the example of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26-40). The normative means by which God chooses to save us is clearly seen— the preaching of the Gospel to an open and receptive heart, which results in a believer in Christ going on his way rejoicing after God removed Philip from the scene. No “church” here except one member of His Body, a deacon (Acts 6:5), who certainly did not exhort the eunuch to depend on him! It is the Gospel that saves us, not the church. God may use a member of His church to present that Gospel, but it is not the church or any member that does the saving, normative or otherwise.

I think one place where Protestants and Catholics get into trouble discussing this is semantics. Protestants call the process “sanctification”, where Catholics are talking about the same process, but will refer to it as justification or salvation.

You may be correct, but to many Protestants “salvation” is not a process, though there are past, present, and future aspects of it. We have been saved; we are being saved; and we shall be saved. On the other hand, “sanctification” is certainly a process whereby we grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord and are being conformed to His image, day by day. But even sanctification has completed, present, and future aspects. Notice Heb. 10:

** 10. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
13. from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
14. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.**

That sure sounds like OSAS to me-– "He has perfected forever…"

There are many seals spoken of in scripture. I will say that one is sealed in the HS at baptism, and that the mark of this seal is irrevocable. If one falls away from grace after this, then his last state is worse than his first.

**Paul tells the Ephesian Christians that they “were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory” (Eph. 1:13-14). But he also says, they are “sealed for the day of redemption” (4:30). The preposition rendered “for” is eis, meaning “to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.)” according to Strong’s Lexicon. So, the seal lasts until, to, and into the day of redemption, i.e., when He comes back for us. There is no thought in either use of seal by Paul of anyone “falling from grace after this” as you say. They are sealed until the day of redemption. That is OSAS pure and simple.
**

 

[Phil12123]

i dont think nobody in here is saying that salvation is not a gift from God alone. you are confused on this matter. now i ask you can you condenm catholics for doing good?

Do YOU believe “salvation is…a gift from God alone”? Do YOU presently possess that gift? Do YOU have eternal life right now, as a present possession? Or do you think you won’t have it until you do good works and die “in a state of grace”? If you have it right now, are you assured you will have it when you die? Or do you have to DO something more to get it, keep it, or maintain it?

here is an example for you: Lazarus and the rich man. the rich man went to hell, why? if salvation is a free gift to all than why this gift did not reach the rich man?

The key to WHY the rich man ended up in hell is found in one word in one verse— Luke 16:30. Can you find the word? Do you know what it means? Have you done it yourself?

if it is a free gift, in the way you believe, than why in the judgement day Jesus mentions works that we did and to those with faith alone were cast out?

What passage are you referring to?

 

[Phil12123]

here is an example for you: Lazarus and the rich man. the rich man went to hell, why? if salvation is a free gift to all than why this gift did not reach the rich man?

**Salvation is indeed a free gift that is available now to all who choose to receive it by repentance and faith in Jesus. The sad thing is either (1) people don’t know about it, or (2) people reject it (like the Muslims who reject the crucifixion and vicarious atonement of Christ), or (3) people think it is too simple to just believe in Christ so they add their own works to the mix and end up trying by their own efforts to please God in order to get forgiveness, when in fact all they needed to do was make Jesus their Savior and Lord since HE died for all their sins, paying for them in full. Instead of receiving His free Gift of salvation, they try to do things to deserve or merit it, which is a statement that they are not trusting in the Work of Christ but in their own works to get them to heaven. It is this last group who will be those who thought they were doing the right thing and end up saying, Lord, Lord, did we not do this and that, etc.? And He will say to them, Depart from me, you evildoers.

The rich man in the account, of course, lived before Jesus went to the cross, so he may only have known the OT law and not the grace of God available to all in this church age. In any event, we can safely say he did not do what he hoped his brothers would do if someone came back from the dead to warn them about hell.**

 

[VociMike]

That is exactly the point. The ones that dont stand till the end where never saved to begin with.

Therefore, one cannot know if one is saved until the end. But that’s not what OSAS teaches!

Time to trot out my favorite atheist. Is this guy saved, assuming he dies unrepentant? Clearly at one time in his life he was convinced he was saved, and others around him were convinced he was saved. So, is it likely that he is saved?

 

[JRKH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRKH 1) What if the “standing” does not produce the “walk”?

When you receive God’s gift of eternal life, you have passed from death to life (John 5:24). Before receiving life, you are dead (spiritually) and cannot “walk.” When you receive life (“standing”), you can walk for the first time, though as a baby Christian it is more like a crawl. But the standing always produces something, a crawl or a walk or a run, something. If there is no “walk” or something that evidences new life, there is likely no standing.

Now we are reaching some accord. So by your own statements above, fatih must produce a “walk”, or at least some kind of movement which involves doing the work of the Lord. So as it is written in James 2: 14-25 and in particular verse 24 “You must percieve that a person is justified by his works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE”.
I would suggest to you to reread all of James Chapter Two, bearing in mind that he is writing to the Bretheren; to those who are converted and not to those needing conversion. He is writing to strengthen them in their faith so that they do not fall away and face condemnation. His admonishes and cautions are to those who are already converted and have professed Jesus as Lord.

Quote:
2) Would you classify "walking” as work?

It is the work referred to in Eph. 2:10, but that is not work that gets anyone the Gift (in verses 8 and 9) or helps them keep it or maintain it. It is the product of it.

James says differently. He says that faith without works is dead. Therefore works help to maintain faith just as breathing maintains life.

Quote:
3) If I throw away a gift do I still have the Gift?

No, of course not.

Then if I throw away the gift of life that I am given I will be judged accordingly and condemned.

Quote:
I am not making my standing, I am maintaining it, by doing “The work of the Father”. Did Jesus tell us to hop on the cart of salvation or did he say take up your cross?

I can only reiterate what I already said:

…you agree that your standing is a Gift from God, by His mercy and grace, but that you only keep it by your doing things like not willfully sinning, keeping the commandments, obeying Him, confessing Him, and doing His work. So, you are making your standing, a Gift from God, dependent on your walk, as if it is something you must earn or be worthy of keeping or having in the first place. That is wrong and unscriptural. None of us sinners will ever be worthy of His wonderful gift of salvation.

And I can only reiterate what I said. Read James. Chapter Two.

What did you do on December 26th to “maintain” or “keep” all the Christmas gifts you received the previous day? Nothing!!! They were yours for good the day you received them. None of the givers are checking up on you today to see if you’re still “worthy” of having them, with some sort of threat that if you aren’t, you’re going to lose those gifts. Look—they were either gifts or not. Don’t you see how you have changed God’s gift into a non-gift by your way of thinking? You make it, ultimately, a reward, rather than a gift. And I will repeat, that is wrong and unscriptural. Actually, it is also quite simply illogical, which Paul shows in Rom. 4:4-5 and 11:6.

Your comparison is flawed. The Gift if Eternal life is a Gift of Inheritance. It is not a “Christmas Present”. The gifts that would be comparable to “Christmas gifts” would be the graces we receive from our loving Father. A child can receive many gifts from a parent and still lose their inheritance through willful misconduct.

Quote:
I would ask though if you believe there are people who “Cry Lord Lord” but are unworthy of entering into heaven?

All sinners who have not received God’s free gift of forgiveness and eternal life are “unworthy” of entering heaven. That includes everyone who is trusting in their own good works to get them in, rather than in Christ’s Work of redemption on their behalf at Calvary. A person can cast of demons and do many wonderful works in Christ’s name and still be told by Him, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoer.” How? By their trusting in those works, rather than His Work. They may even be doing those works out of good motives, like trying to show they are His disciples or trying to “take up their cross” etc. That would make no difference because none of that earns anyone forgiveness, which must be received as a free gift or it is not received at all.

How about those persons who cry out ‘Lord Lord”, profess belief, but do no works. Do they gain heaven even though they refuse to go and work in the Father’s vinyard?

(continued)

 

[JRKH]

Quote:
Also, do you see, “walking” and “becoming Christlike” as work or not?

I see them both as the work of God in and through us (Phil 2:13; Heb. 13:20-21).

Ahhh – So they are works. - Thank you.

Quote:
Thank you for recognizing that there are verses supporting works (actions) as a part of the salvation process.

I never said that, calling it, “the salvation process.” Paul in Eph. 2:8 tells the Ephesian Christians that they “have been saved” past tense. You reject that and make it into a long “process” with no certainty of outcome until after death and judgment. That is because you, in effect, reject being saved as a matter of receiving a gift. You make it a reward not to be received (or if received, not to be kept) until after a life that is deserving of it based on your works.

Well I apologize if I mis-understood you. I will drop the word process then. So verses remain that support works as a part of salvation.
Yes, Paul says that they “have been Saved”, just as I have been saved through my faith in Jesus. However, unless I am careful to guard my salvation, to please the Father, to walk in His ways, to become perfected in Christ, to obey His commandments, to Love my neighbor, in short to do all that the Father requires of us, - I risk falling away and losing my salvation through my own willful disobedience.

Quote:
I absolutely agree that the HS does not send contradictory messages and these things must be reconcilable. In fact they were reconsiled centuries ago by the very earliest Catholic Church teachings.

Can you quote from some of “the very earliest Catholic Church teachings” that agree with scriptures that say salvation is a free gift of God? Show me what they say about how getting to heaven is a matter of receiving a free gift.

I have never said that the early Church taught anything other than salvation is a gift from God. What I am saying is that the Early Church recognized both parts of scripture. The part that acknowledges salvation as a free gift, AND the parts, amply quoted here, that admonishes us to live in Christ, do works for the building and glorification of God.
That, if we are to share in the inheritance we must do the work of the Father. This has always been the teaching of the Church.

Quote:
The very fact that there are verses opposed to OSAS makes the case for us. If a passive, one time acceptance of a gift were all it took, then why do these verses exist? Why does Jesus constantly exhort his followers to do more; to “take up their cross”?

Verses that exhort one to live a godly life do not really oppose OSAS, because doing so is not what saves anyone; it simply pleases God, which any child of God should seek to do. Consider your own earthly children. You admonish them and encourage them to obey you and please you, not so that they can become your children; they already are. That is their standing and does not change. However, their behavior does change, daily. But that behavior is not what makes them your children. They were born into your family, something they had nothing to do with. When a person is born into God’s family by receiving Christ (John 1:12-13), he acquires a spiritual status or standing that is eternal since he receives eternal life. His later behavior does not affect that any more than his initial behavior deserved or produced it.

Let’s take a look at your analogy here. Yes we are born into God’s family. As such we have eternal life. However that doesn’t guarantee where we will spend that eternity. If we are obedient Children who do our Father’s will, work to be perfected in Christ, build up the God’s Kingdom and obey His commandments we will be judged fit to share in His inheritance.
On the other hand, if we are disobedient children, who accept the Father’s gifts but give nothing back, who constantly ignore His commandments, who wander far from His grace and refuse to work in His vinyard, who do nothing to build up and glorify His kingdom, we will be judged unfit to share in His inheritance.
Have we Lost Eternal Life, of course not, but you can bet that the address you spend it at will be changed.

Peace
James

 

[jcoldc]

Phil (et. al.),

Do you believe God loves us all more than we can know love? More than parents can love their children? (If no, then please correct me.)

Let me ask of this analogy that I think of regarding your argument. If you make your two children breakfast (I’m hoping you have children, if not go with the flow for a moment.) One comes downstairs with bed head. He may or may not say thanks. He may or may not say anything. He may or may not complain that you burned the pancakes. But you love him and were glad to give him breakfast. Your other child comes down and says, “Dad, I made my bed. Is it OK to eat breakfast?” Would you say, “How dare you think that you had to earn your breakfast? How dare you make your bed and have a clean room. Did you not know that I would give you breakfast anyway? And as a punishment…Go to your room. I don’t want to see you again.”

Many of us here don’t agree with you, but even if you are “partially” right, wouldn’t you tell your second son to eat his breakfast? Wouldn’t you at best say, “Hey son, you don’t have to make your bed to eat breakfast. Come sit down and enjoy it.”

Why the condemnation? Why judge us going to hell? Isn’t that God’s job? Aren’t you going against the bible by doing this?

 

[JRKH]

Phil (et. al.),

Do you believe God loves us all more than we can know love? More than parents can love their children? (If no, then please correct me.)

Let me ask of this analogy that I think of regarding your argument. If you make your two children breakfast (I’m hoping you have children, if not go with the flow for a moment.) One comes downstairs with bed head. He may or may not say thanks. He may or may not say anything. He may or may not complain that you burned the pancakes. But you love him and were glad to give him breakfast. Your other child comes down and says, “Dad, I made my bed. Is it OK to eat breakfast?” Would you say, “How dare you think that you had to earn your breakfast? How dare you make your bed and have a clean room. Did you not know that I would give you breakfast anyway? And as a punishment…Go to your room. I don’t want to see you again.”

Many of us here don’t agree with you, but even if you are “partially” right, wouldn’t you tell your second son to eat his breakfast? Wouldn’t you at best say, “Hey son, you don’t have to make your bed to eat breakfast. Come sit down and enjoy it.”

Why the condemnation? Why judge us going to hell? Isn’t that God’s job? Aren’t you going against the bible by doing this?

I really like this!!

Peace
James

 

[wisdomseeker]

Salvation is indeed a free gift that is available now to all who choose to receive it by repentance and faith in Jesus. The sad thing is either (1) people don’t know about it, or (2) people reject it (like the Muslims who reject the crucifixion and vicarious atonement of Christ), or (3) people think it is too simple to just believe in Christ so they add their own works to the mix and end up trying by their own efforts to please God in order to get forgiveness, when in fact all they needed to do was make Jesus their Savior and Lord since HE died for all their sins, paying for them in full. Instead of receiving His free Gift of salvation, they try to do things to deserve or merit it, which is a statement that they are not trusting in the Work of Christ but in their own works to get them to heaven. It is this last group who will be those who thought they were doing the right thing and end up saying, Lord, Lord, did we not do this and that, etc.? And He will say to them, Depart from me, you evildoers.

The rich man in the account, of course, lived before Jesus went to the cross, so he may only have known the OT law and not the grace of God available to all in this church age. In any event, we can safely say he did not do what he hoped his brothers would do if someone came back from the dead to warn them about hell.

Only the CC understands the what the Word of God really means. what it says. the Church that Jesus built and promised to be with her until the ends of time. hope you can understand that. your explanations sounds arrogant and misleading. please, you are waisting your time trying to explain those passages to me. we dont read the Bible in the way you do, picking verses here and there and try to fit what you believe. it does not work. but thanks anyway. hope someday you see the light. remember to never condenm or criticize anyone for doing what is right and what is good.

 

[JRKH]

Although I don’t expect it to have any effect on Phil, I decided to do a search of the **Catholic Catechism **using the words **“Salvation and Works” ** There were exactly 7 matches. In other words there are only 7 paragraphs in the Catechism that contain both of these words and none of these speak of “salvation by works”!!

Here is the link to the searchable catachism site . If Phil or anyone else would like to do some searching of “Official Church Teaching” they are certainly welcome.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Here is another interesting search result from the same site for those who would know what the Church teaches is “Necessary for Salvation”

Peace
James

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Salvation is indeed a free gift that is available now to all who choose to receive it by repentance and faith in Jesus. The sad thing is either (1) people don’t know about it, or (2) people reject it (like the Muslims who reject the crucifixion and vicarious atonement of Christ), or (3) people think it is too simple to just believe in Christ so they add their own works to the mix and end up trying by their own efforts to please God in order to get forgiveness, when in fact all they needed to do was make Jesus their Savior and Lord since HE died for all their sins, paying for them in full. Instead of receiving His free Gift of salvation, they try to do things to deserve or merit it, which is a statement that they are not trusting in the Work of Christ but in their own works to get them to heaven. It is this last group who will be those who thought they were doing the right thing and end up saying, Lord, Lord, did we not do this and that, etc.? And He will say to them, Depart from me, you evildoers.

The rich man in the account, of course, lived before Jesus went to the cross, so he may only have known the OT law and not the grace of God available to all in this church age. In any event, we can safely say he did not do what he hoped his brothers would do if someone came back from the dead to warn them about hell.

If what you assert above is true then why does every verse that mentions judgement says that we will be judged by our works?(Matthew 25:31-46 among others)

Why does Paul write in 1 Cor 13:13 that love, not faith, is the greatest tp abide in?

Where or when has the Catholic Church ever taught that we are saved by works?

Here is a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, can you show me where it teaches that we are saved by works?:
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

I’m sure a simple search of the phrase “saved by works” will give you the answer you seek.

Other problems with OSAS:
What about enduring to the end?
~ Matthew 10:22
~ Hebrews 10:35-36
~ Hebrews 12:1

Hope? If you have 100% assurance of salvation why do you need hope?
~ Romans 8:24-25
~ Romans 15:13
~ Romans 5:2

It seems obvious that Paul didn’t have absolute assurance:
~ Philippians 3:10-13
~ 1 Corinthians 9:26-27

Other verses that wouldn’t make sense if Protestant view is true:
~ 2 Corinthians 13:5-6
~ 1 Thessalonians 5:23
~ Philippians 2:12
~ Hebrews 4:1,11
~ Colossians 1:21-23

The “Book of Life”
~ Revelation 20:15
~ Psalms 69:28
~ Revelation 3:1-5

If once one is saved that salvation cannot be removed why would king David ask God to do something that he knew couldn’t be done? Why would David ask God to blot out someone’s name from the book of life if he knew it couldn’t be done?

And finally:
~ Hebrews 10:38
~ Ezekiel 33:12-19
~ Ezekiel 18:21-24
~ 1 Timothy 4:1
~ John 2:11 with John 6:16-22, 66 They-his disciples- believed in Him, then they rejected Him.