There's no OSAS

[Ronald_E]

Well, something came to mind to me just now. I must go to confession to receive absolution for my sins. I feel nervous about going but when I went a month ago I remember feeling nervous then also and I also remember how good I felt receiving forgiveness for my sins.
Luther would spend 7 hours at times in his confession of sins. He never felt forgiven and therefore believed that confession was unnecessary for salvation. He failed to realize that his unresolved anger with his father was at the source of his suffering, but, in those days they had no understanding of the “flesh”, which is the brain, and how important it was to have a secure attachment to parents in order to have a healthy sense of self. It was all in the bible especially if had read Sirach and saw that a righteous father gives his children roots in the soil. However, that was one of the books removed from the bible.
If anyone does not believe that Jesus instituted the sacrament of confession as God’s tool to be administered by the priest for God for the good of all of us, then there is no way of changing their belief in OSAS.

 

[brkn1]

Well, something came to mind to me just now. I must go to confession to receive absolution for my sins. I feel nervous about going but when I went a month ago I remember feeling nervous then also and I also remember how good I felt receiving forgiveness for my sins.
Luther would spend 7 hours at times in his confession of sins. He never felt forgiven and therefore believed that confession was unnecessary for salvation. He failed to realize that his unresolved anger with his father was at the source of his suffering, but, in those days they had no understanding of the “flesh”, which is the brain, and how important it was to have a secure attachment to parents in order to have a healthy sense of self. It was all in the bible especially if had read Sirach and saw that a righteous father gives his children roots in the soil. However, that was one of the books removed from the bible.
If anyone does not believe that Jesus instituted the sacrament of confession as God’s tool to be administered by the priest for God for the good of all of us, then there is no way of changing their belief in OSAS.

Don’t forget to tell the priest every lacivious little detail, or your sins won’t be adequately confessed and you will still be in your sins, out of the state of grace, in danger of eternal damnation.

 

[sandusky]

Not so fast! It’s actually “lurid fervency”. There’s a difference.

Na; it’s histrionics.

po18guy:

p.s. Refute it then! Your immortal soul is at stake and you decry passion for the Lord? I’m praying if I don’t get back for a while.

I can’t refute your feelings.

 

[Fisher]

**If anyone does not believe that Jesus instituted the sacrament of confession as God’s tool to be administered by the priest for God for the good of all of us, then there is no way of changing their belief in OSAS **

Who Can Forgive Sins?

The Lutheran Minister, The Priest, Or Jesus Christ?

“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”- Mark 7:7

“And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” -Mark 7:9

“Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.” -Mark 7:13

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” -Colossians 2:8

Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection was God’s payment for our sins. Paul declared this in writing to the Ephesians…

“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.” (Ephesians 1:7)

Every minister that loves the Lord Jesus Christ will not draw attention to himself, let alone claim the power to forgive sin. He will declare as Paul did to the Corinthians in 1st Corinthians 2:2 and 1:31…

“For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.” (2:2)

“…He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord (not in himself).” (1:31)

“For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, the man CHRIST JESUS.”

“God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar…”

1st John 2:1, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the righteous:

 

[sandusky]

sorry, i am going to trust the Church Christ established, not you…

I’ll see you this Sunday, then. Do you need directions?

 

[Ronald_E]

Don’t forget to tell the priest every lacivious little detail, or your sins won’t be adequately confessed and you will still be in your sins, out of the state of grace, in danger of eternal damnation.

Only God forgives sins. The priest is God’s instrument. I made a 40 year confession 3 years ago. When my priest asked me if that was everything, I said I did not know and he told me that God knows what is in my heart. He then gave me absolution in English and in his next breath he gave me absolution in Latin and I knew that was from God because when I was last in the Catholic church it was 1965 during the Latin rite. When I told my wife and friends what had occurred they told me that they had never been given absolution in Latin and we are from the same generation.
You do not understand why Our Lord instituted this. He knew that our flesh (brain) cannot comprehend God and therefore, God is not absolutely real and so it would be easy for us to confess to God who is not experienced through the five senses. Consequently, we would not be able to reach the depth of our shame because there would not be the threat of our shame being exposed to the risk of humiliation. Therefore, we cannot really die to ourselves unless we are willing to risk our annihilation. That risk begins to take place in confession.
It is really easy to talk on the internet and say things that we normally would not say face to face. Come face to face and experience the difference. It is the same with confession. You can reject it easily because you have not done it. So your interpretation of scripture is limited by your limited experience. You cannot write about something you haven’t experienced and believe you are correct if you take time to reflect on this.

 

[jcoldc]

Wow!

I don’t know if this is how all the NCC threads are, but it makes me sad. No one can come to an agreement/compromise, or even and understanding. What are we trying to acomplish? I don’t believe anyone is going to convert their critics. I don’t even think anyone is going to convert onlookers the way this is going. I don’t think that God wants his Holy Book being verbally thrown around. So I’m tired.

But I will mention some thoughts (other than the Apostles’ Creed):

I believe that we should be peaceful.

I believe we should love our enemies. While I don’t know if anyone here would say another is the enemy, it sometimes seems that way.

I believe in God’s mercy, especially for those who love him and want to be with Him, (even if they don’t agree with me.) I hope those who don’t agree with me, return the favor.

And with regards to this thread…

I believe that salvation is gift from God, much like a child is a gift from God. You have to nurture it. What you put in, is what you get out. And when you fail, and Lord knows we’ll fail , you get another chance. But you can’t be too proud to say, “I’m sorry.” (That can be hard for parents to kids.) I also think kids offer forgiveness much like God, without hesitation.

In the words of my two year old, when I’ve been ranting about something, “Mommy, hug you?” :hug1:

Blessings to all.

 

[johnnydigit]

there is no logical answer to an absurd question.

if i had been presented with OSAS when i was looking for God, i may have never become Christian.

with that said, we must show charity and sympathize because everyone has something they are holding that is not entirely correct. OSAS just happens to be a big one that they are holding for some reason. i learned that when emotions get involved, no matter how intelligent the person is, logic goes completely out the window so you gotta try a different approach. i like parables…

 

[Phil12123]

I think that you just did not like my response!

No, I was unaware that you did respond, if you did. What was your post no., or page it was on, that I may read it, and like it or dislike it?

This attitude requires a presumption of something that has not yet occurred. Catholics believe that our inheritance is being kept for us in heaven. Not that we have already attained, but we press on to the high mark that we find in Christ Jesus, laying hold of that which has laid hold of us.

Sorry, but I am confused. You get something at baptism, which has already occurred, past tense. No presumption there. You got it; you have it. But what you do thereafter could result in losing it, right? Your “inheritance” that you don’t get till you get to heaven, is that the “gift” of eternal life that you think God gives you but only after you have endured to the end of your life and still have whatever you got at baptism?

God is able to preserve what he has implanted within us to the last day. If you say it is “tenuous and temporary”, then you are insulting the strength of God, and not of man. It is God who keeps us, not we ourselves.

And what is it that He “has implanted within us” that He can preserve to the last day? Eternal life? Or just the potential of having eternal life as a future inheritance in heaven but not now here on earth? How am I insulting the strength of God when it is you who overrules that strength by saying man has to “endure to the end” or he doesn’t have it preserved? Apparently man has more strength to “spurn the gift” than God has to keep man from falling and doing that. I only say that it would be “tenuous and temporary” because that is the effect of the RCC teaching that it dies or ceases to exist whenever a mortal sin is committed and confession is not yet made to a priest. It would be that RCC teaching that insults the strength of God, would it not?

 

[brkn1]

So, God has removed our free will? What’s the purpose of satan, since he already has his souls, according to you? Undoubtedly, some are chosen, but whom? It is arrogance that presumes to know what the Almighty God alone knows. To deny that satan has power over your soul only confirms that you are not always saved. That is the evil one’s greatest deception.

Christ’s peace.

God gave us a free will, but somehow that free will can not be used as something that works to bring about our salvation, or we could later boast that we made the “right choice” when we “chose” to work out our salvation. The bible is clear about that in Romans.

Satan loses his power over a person’s soul once that person becomes a child of God; born from above into the Beloved through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Satan can still mess up a saved person’s effectiveness in living an increasingly sanctified life for God as he matures in God’s Grace. But Satan has forever lost the battle to bring that soul with him into the lake of fire.

(1 John 5:12-13, 18, 20) "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

1. “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”
2. “And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”

If you have been given “an understanding” that you may KNOW Him that is true, you are in Christ, Who is the true God and ETERNAL LIFE.

The Holy Spirit would not have used just the adjective “eternal”, if “possibly” needed to preceed that word “eternal”. God is not the author of confusion.

 

[Phil12123]

Phil, I’m not sure what your problem with me is. I was not a part of this thread back on page 10. Sorry, if I didn’t address concerns that weren’t directed toward me. I feel like you are implying we are “in denial of the truth”.

No, I do not have a problem with you except the answer you gave initially (which I wasn’t seeking from you, but from guanophore). But I appreciate your attempt at an answer, so I will try to answer your question about the judgment. I have other thoughts about confession, which you brought up, but that can wait till later.

But if you’re still looking for an answer about “in and out” salvation, that is not exactly correct.

**My original point was that if you reject OSAS then you will end up believing in SALMOTBTJ, or Saved And Lost Millions Of Times Before The Judgment, because you will commit mortal sin, lose your salvation, get it back, sin again, lose it again, etc. millions of times before you ever get to the judgment. So, all I can figure is that you don’t believe you can have “eternal life” here and now on this earth before you die. You speak of “sanctifying grace” or “being in a state of grace” but you don’t say anything about having eternal life, possibly because the latter has that troubling word “eternal” and if that life is eternal and you actually have it now, you may have to believe in OSAS.

You can comment on the above, or not, as you see fit. I assume you will correct me if you think I have made any false conclusions.

Now, you asked about the judgment and why would God need to judge us if we are already saved and sure of it. My answer to that is this. The judgment does not determine anyone’s eternal destiny and that is true of both the saved and the lost. Here’s why:

We all start out as sinners under sentence of death. Sinners have already been condemned according to John 3:18 which says, “Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” And John 3:36 says, “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” So, when nonbelievers face the judgment they are already condemned, not having believed in Christ, the only remedy for their sins, in this life before they ever get to the judgment. They don’t appear at a judgment where God decides if they go to hell; they decided that in their lifetime by not embracing the Savior. Their judgment is of their works, to determine the degree of punishment for all their sins, none of which have been forgiven. Recall Christ’s words, “It shall be more tolerable for Sodom in the day of judgment than for you…” (Matt. 11:24), and His condemnation of the Pharisees when He said, “…you shall receive the greater damnation” (Matt. 23:14). So it is evident that there are degrees of punishment for the lost.

For the saved, those believing, John 3:18 says they are not condemned. All their sins have been judged at the Cross when Jesus bore all their sins and they have believed in that Work of redemption, accepting it personally and individually for themselves. They have received God’s free gift of eternal life in this lifetime before ever getting to the judgment. So, what occurs at the judgment? Their works are judged, as to what sort they are, resulting in rewards or no rewards depending on the eternal value of those works (illustrated by “gold, silver, precious stones” vs. “wood, hay, stubble”) (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

So, saving faith gets you INTO heaven, works gets you rewards IN heaven. Someone asked about Matt. 25, which seems to teach that works got some into heaven and others, who lacked works, ended up in hell. When you compare that passage with Matt. 7, where those with arguably very good works (“many wonderful works in your name”) are rejected by the Judge, there has to be more involved than works or no works. Works can be an indication of the condition of one’s heart; not always, but the Judge knows the heart and is not swayed by “good” works performed by someone whose heart is not right with Him. Evidently, those in Matt. 7 did not have hearts right with Him in spite of their good works. Those in Matt. 25, who did unto the least of His brethren, had hearts right with Him and did those things not even realizing they were doing them as unto Him. We know from other Scriptures how a person gets his heart right with God, and it is not to simply and solely do good deeds; it is to repent and believe the Gospel of grace. Without that, no one’s heart is right with God and no amount of works makes any difference. Therefore it should be evident that those who entered the kingdom in Matt. 25 had hearts right with God, not by doing those things mentioned per se but by being right with God. Then out of that right condition, they served Him by serving others.

 

[ufamtobie]

Hi there Brkn1

YOU STATED: “It does not say that I have to confess the church or pope before men either. That is nowhere to be found in Scripture”.

Brkn1, you are totaly WRONG it does say in Scripture read below:

(John CH.20 verse 21) As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.’ After saying this he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit. For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained.

Brkn1, The Lord gave his Apostles the gift not only to heal people but also to forgive them their sins. Now does that stop with the Apostles, Peter, John, James, etc…

The answer to the above is that it has not stoped! the "Forgiveness of sins continues today through the Roman Catholic Church the Pope and the Priest come from the line of the Apostles, whom have the blessings Jesus to forgive your sins and mine.

This should show you that the Catholic Church is the True Church of Christ, cause as you know no Protestant minister forgives sins at their church cause they did not recieve the Lords breath of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins, reasons are the Protestant Ministers are not from the line of the Apostles.

Now why would are Lord tell his Apostles who are only men to forgive sins? Jesus wants us to go to the priest in confessional and confess our sins. plain and simple.

Brkn1, Open your eyes, let pride go away from your heart and believe.

Ufamtobie

I see the usual ignoring of the chapter context in this quote.
Jesus was speaking to the apostles and you might have noticed that Jesus said: “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say to tou, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.” Matt 10:23

That does not apply to us, but you would seem to say that it does by pulling verses out of context.

Why not go down to verse 32 “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.”
It does not say that I have to confess the church or pope before men either. That is nowhere to be found in Scripture.
I confess the Lord Jesus Christ alone as my Redeemer and this I can honestly do, since I know that I have been saved eternally by the gift of God through the Holy Spirit, Who sealed me as an permanently adopted born again child of God. There is no such thing as being unborn physically and the same thing applies to never being unborn spiritually. A child of God is forever a child of God.
I can thank my Lord and my God for that gift of eternal salvation, but you can not honestly do so, since you are not sure in your faith that God has given you that gift, which makes your faith incomplete and therefore possibly of no value towards saving you. You can’t trust or have complete faith in God because you see your life as a form of roulette, where you need to work at being “lucky in the state of grace” at death. You also have to depend on the church for salvation, which means it is not only Jesus that saves you. You believe that you can earn or merit the “gift of salvation”, which the bible clearly tells you can NEVER be earned or deserved, since it would no longer be a gift.
Go ahead and laugh at what I have just said here. I don’t fear you, or believe that you or your church can “destroy both soul and body in hell”. Jesus alone is my Judge and Redeemer, and I will put my trust in Him alone for my salvation. Peter is not biblically described at being at Heaven’s gate either. Jesus is the door or gate, and a person can spiritually enter now as a child of Heaven. A born again child of God is only a pilgrim and he becomes a grateful and willing servant of the Lord on this earth, until the Lord receives him finally in Heaven. OSAS makes sense to me.

 

[brkn1]

Hi there Brkn1

YOU STATED: “It does not say that I have to confess the church or pope before men either. That is nowhere to be found in Scripture”.

Brkn1, you are totaly WRONG it does say in Scripture read below:

(John CH.20 verse 21) As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.’ After saying this he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit. For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained.

Brkn1, The Lord gave his Apostles the gift not only to heal people but also to forgive them their sins. Now does that stop with the Apostles, Peter, John, James, etc…

The answer to the above is that it has not stoped! the "Forgiveness of sins continues today through the Roman Catholic Church the Pope and the Priest come from the line of the Apostles, whom have the blessings Jesus to forgive your sins and mine.

This should show you that the Catholic Church is the True Church of Christ, cause as you know no Protestant minister forgives sins at their church cause they did not recieve the Lords breath of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins, reasons are the Protestant Ministers are not from the line of the Apostles.
Now why would are Lord tell his Apostles who are only men to forgive sins? Jesus wants us to go to the priest in confessional and confess our sins. plain and simple.

Brkn1, Open your eyes, let pride go away from your heart and believe.
Ufamtobie

Does Jesus breathe on the Pope, Bishops, and priests?
I should like to see that happen!!!

Jesus prepared His Apostles to preach, not to be judges that go out forgiving and condemning whosoever they meet.
It must be the preaching, or not preaching, of the gospel of Jesus that is what causes the forgiving or retaining of sins. The Bible is clear about the effects of first hearing the gospel and then receiving it; which then causes the Blood of Jesus to remit the recipients sin.

Where are all the examples of the Apostles acts of forgiving and retaining sins in the Bible?
A book by the name of Acts should have plenty of them.

I found one example of “loosing and binding”:
(Acts 15:28,29) “For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay no greater burden than these necessary things;”

“That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.”

You don’t need a lawyer or Magisterium to figure those rules out. They make perfect sense too! Plus they are in the Bible !

 

[ufamtobie]

Dear Brkn1,

Jesus, left his Apostles the Grace to forgive sins, the Apostles left the Grace that Jesus Gave them to thier successors to forgive sins so on and so forthfor us all. Yes the Pope and all Priest have the Grace of Jesus to forgive sins in his name.

(John CH.20 verse 21) As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.’ After saying this he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit. For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained.

BRKN1, you are not arguing with me, you are arguing and fighting with the verse above John ch20 verse21 which clearly states that an Apostle and their successors have the right to for give sins.

I too found an example of **loosing and binding **about St. Peter.
(Matthew ch.16 verse 19) I will give you the KEYS of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you BIND on earth shall be considered bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be considered loosed in heaven.

Stop your presecution.

Umfamtobie

Does Jesus breathe on the Pope, Bishops, and priests?
I should like to see that happen!!!

Jesus prepared His Apostles to preach, not to be judges that go out forgiving and condemning whosoever they meet.
It must be the preaching, or not preaching, of the gospel of Jesus that is what causes the forgiving or retaining of sins. The Bible is clear about the effects of first hearing the gospel and then receiving it; which then causes the Blood of Jesus to remit the recipients sin.

Where are all the examples of the Apostles acts of forgiving and retaining sins in the Bible?
A book by the name of Acts should have plenty of them.

I found one example of “loosing and binding”:
(Acts 15:28,29) “For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay no greater burden than these necessary things;”

“That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.”

You don’t need a lawyer or Magisterium to figure those rules out. They make perfect sense too! Plus they are in the Bible !

 

[JRKH]

Wow!

I don’t know if this is how all the NCC threads are, but it makes me sad. No one can come to an agreement/compromise, or even and understanding. What are we trying to acomplish? I don’t believe anyone is going to convert their critics. I don’t even think anyone is going to convert onlookers the way this is going. I don’t think that God wants his Holy Book being verbally thrown around. So I’m tired.

But I will mention some thoughts (other than the Apostles’ Creed):

I believe that we should be peaceful.

I believe we should love our enemies. While I don’t know if anyone here would say another is the enemy, it sometimes seems that way.

I believe in God’s mercy, especially for those who love him and want to be with Him, (even if they don’t agree with me.) I hope those who don’t agree with me, return the favor.

And with regards to this thread…

I believe that salvation is gift from God, much like a child is a gift from God. You have to nurture it. What you put in, is what you get out. And when you fail, and Lord knows we’ll fail , you get another chance. But you can’t be too proud to say, “I’m sorry.” (That can be hard for parents to kids.) I also think kids offer forgiveness much like God, without hesitation.

In the words of my two year old, when I’ve been ranting about something, “Mommy, hug you?” :hug1:

Blessings to all.

Thanks for this.
You are right, there can’t really be a compromise on this - but it is because we are discussing different things, and at different levels. OSAS - works - doctrinal issues - personal understandings - semantics etc.

If one person from each side were discussing these points they would be able to better define and understand each other’s position. That is just not possible here.

What has happened though is a lively exchange with very little snitting at each other. Each side has been given things to consider and hopefully seeds have been planted that may bear fruit later on.

I rarely stick with these kinds of threads because they tend to degenerate into chaos, but this one has continued to be Christian, and Loving even though several of us have, I’m sure, thrown our hands up in the air and declared at our computer screens - IDIOT (or some other emotional release).

I for one would like to thank all the participants for their patience with each other, and with me. May God Bless us all and make us fitting witnesses in the world.

Peace
James

 

[Ronald_E]

I need some feedback. Did I appear harsh in the message I sent? I hope not because that was not my intent. If I appear harsh please accept my apologies.
Ron

 

[JRKH]

Does Jesus breathe on the Pope, Bishops, and priests?
I should like to see that happen!!!

Yes He does.
His breath on them can be seen just as clearly as the Holy spirit coming to rest in your heart.

Jesus prepared His Apostles to preach, not to be judges that go out forgiving and condemning whosoever they meet.
It must be the preaching, or not preaching, of the gospel of Jesus that is what causes the forgiving or retaining of sins. The Bible is clear about the effects of first hearing the gospel and then receiving it; which then causes the Blood of Jesus to remit the recipients sin.

Jesus prepared His apostles to Spread the good news of the kingdom and to build His Church. A Church which Jesus knew would be around for many generations after the Apostles were called home.
Now why would Jesus give authority to the apostles to act in His name, if that authority was not to pass to their successors? Why would Jesus give Peter the Keys only to have them drop to the ground after Peter died? Jesus DID set them up as judges, which the quoted verse clearly shows. Bind - Loose, Forgive - Not Forgive. It don’t get no clearer than that.
The problem for protestants is that these things demonstrate clear evidence of priestly succession and church authority. An enethama to the first protestants. So all sorts of phantom “interpretations” are provided, or the verses are ignored completely.
It continues to amaze me that people who want to use only the Bible, wind up only using parts of it.

Where are all the examples of the Apostles acts of forgiving and retaining sins in the Bible?
A book by the name of Acts should have plenty of them.

It sure must be a comfort to you to be able to point this out - but let me ask you this:
If you sat down and read the book of acts, PLUS all of the Epistles, how long would it take. If you studied through the book of acts, how many days or hours can you account for? Now remember that “Acts” covers quite a period of time. So from reading this thin slice of information from a period of many years, you are able to discern everything that the apostles were teaching and doing for the 30-50 years of thier personal ministry? Amazing.

You don’t need a lawyer or Magisterium to figure those rules out. They make perfect sense too! Plus they are in the Bible !

You know what else they didn’t need to figure those rules out? The Bible!!

And you know that if they had followed your line of thinking, to find it in scripture, they would have sided with the Jewish argument and required circumcision etc. for all gentile Christians. Why, 'cause that’s what the Scripture says.
So, you see, the Church, exersizing Her authority from the earliest times did what was right and good, in spite of “what was written”, and you think it’s fine because it happened to be written down after the fact. Yet there are hundreds, or thousands of hours of oral teaching and discussion that have never been recorded, but are understood through traditions and the writings of the Early Church Fathers which are ignored by protestants because they support catholicism.

Peace
James

 

[guanophore]

ONCE CHOSEN ALWAYS CHOSEN

I agree with this, but we can clearly see that God chose Israel, and that many of them did not choose Him in return, and perished in the wilderness.

The Jews are God’s chosen, but if they remain faithless, they will also be cut off.

Acts 13:45-47
46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,

‘I have set you to be a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.’"

Why did they judge themselves “unworthy of eternal life”? We know that none of us are “worthy” in sense that we can “merit” it. So, they rejected the free gift, which we are all free to do.

Luke 7:30
30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves

God desires that all be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. However, many of God’s chosen people rejected the purpose of God for themselves, just as they do today. Does this nullify the choice of God? By no means. He stands calling all day, knocking at the door. The chosen are those who answer his call.

So Catholics don’t believe that < Belief is a prerequisite to baptism>.

Technically no. Faith is required for baptism. The faith of the parents an Godparents is required for infant baptism. Catholics have received from the Apostles that baptism replaces cirucumcision as the entrance into the New Covenant.

Let us go to Scripture to see if that holds up:

(Acts 8:36-37) "…water: and the eunuch said, See here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptised?

And Philip said, If thou believest with ALL thy heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Something must have got lost in the RCC Latin translation.

No. Adults must make a profession of faith, as must the adults bringing a child, or a disabled person.

In case you are wondering, the story has a very happy ending:

The eunuch “went on his way rejoicing.” forevermore as a forever saved, once and for all eternity saved with the beloved in Christ. Amen!!!

Well, you may have added a few words and concepts to the biblical passage here.

I added a little to the story, but Catholic translations seem to do the same , so I’m in good company. <company

Well, we are in the company of the Apostolic Succession, whereas, you are in the company of those who rejected the authority appointed by Christ. Each to his own!

 

[guanophore]

Don’t forget to tell the priest every lacivious little detail, or your sins won’t be adequately confessed and you will still be in your sins, out of the state of grace, in danger of eternal damnation.

Where did you get these ideas?

Although the priest is not interested in your, or anyone elses’ “lacivious details” of sins, have you ever considered what it would be like to kneel at the feet of Jesus, and tell them?

Perhaps if more of us did, we would not get involved in them!

Who Can Forgive Sins?

The Lutheran Minister, The Priest, Or Jesus Christ?

Do you really believe that Jesus did not give men the power on earth to forgive sins? Why do you think evil in your heart?

Matt 9:4-8
“Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” - he then said to the paralytic - “Rise, take up your bed and go home.” 7 And he rose and went home. 8 When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men."

What prevents you from glorifying God?

  "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."- Mark 7:7

Matt 28:17-20
18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. "

Do you not believe that Jesus is God?

John 20:23
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Do you think this is a commandment of men?

“And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” -Mark 7:9

James 5:16
16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.

Do you think this commandment is “of men”? Why do you think it is included in the inspired-inerrant Word of God?

“Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.” -Mark 7:13

It seems to me that you have nullified these verses by your rejection of confession.

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” -Colossians 2:8

Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection was God’s payment for our sins. Paul declared this in writing to the Ephesians…

“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.” (Ephesians 1:7)

Of course!

Every minister that loves the Lord Jesus Christ will not draw attention to himself, let alone claim the power to forgive sin.

How does listening to someones confession “draw attention to himself”? It does not sound to me like you have ever experienced the sacrament.

It is wise to claim all that God has given, and since he gave power on earth to forgive sins to men, why would anyone spurn such a gift?

“For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, the man CHRIST JESUS.”

Indeed! and such a generous God that He has allowed men to participate in His ministry of reconciling the world to Himself.

1st John 2:1, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the righteous:

Are you not familiar with the concept of acting in the person of Christ? Do you imagine that confession is somehow separated from the advocacy of Christ?

Somewhere you got some anti-Catholic falsehoods. However, what does any of this have to do with OSAS?

 

[guanophore]

I am confused. You get something at baptism, which has already occurred, past tense. No presumption there. You got it; you have it. But what you do thereafter could result in losing it, right?

No. What happens in baptism is permanent, and cannot be “undone”. We are sealed by the promised HS.

Your “inheritance” that you don’t get till you get to heaven, is that the “gift” of eternal life that you think God gives you but only after you have endured to the end of your life and still have whatever you got at baptism?

The gift of eternal life comes from the cross. We enter into it through baptism. We “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” while we are here on earth. After we pass from this life, our faith is perfected, and we inherit the very great and precious promises in which we have placed our trust.

And what is it that He “has implanted within us” that He can preserve to the last day? Eternal life?

Eph 4:30-31
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Titus 3:3-8
4 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

We enter into that Life, are sealed by the HS, regenerated and renewed by the HS. If we remain in him, our justification, started at Baptism, will be completed, and we will take posession of our inheritance, being kept for us inheaven.

Or just the potential of having eternal life as a future inheritance in heaven but not now here on earth?

Eternal Life, in Christ, has broken through into the timeline of this earth. We can enter it now, and remain in it until the end of time. The complete fullness is present at the moment of baptism.

How am I insulting the strength of God when it is you who overrules that strength by saying man has to “endure to the end” or he doesn’t have it preserved?

Because you keep saying that it is “man” who endures. This is not scriptural, and not Apostolic teaching, and denies the promises of God.

1 Peter 1:3-6
By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

It is God’s power that guards our inheritance, it is He who preserves us in fatih for the salvation which is to come. Man is not capable of such a deed!

Apparently man has more strength to “spurn the gift” than God has to keep man from falling and doing that.

No, God’s power is sufficient:

“Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing…” Jude 24

But He does not “keep from falling” those who are resolved to do so. God created us in His own likeness and image. That means that we have free choice. We can follow His commandments, and remain in eternal life, or we can spurn His commandments, an reject eternal life. If we walk with Him, He will preserve us, and present us without blemish. If we refuse, we will be cut off, and thrown into the fire.

Our names, placed in the book of life at Baptism, will be blotted out.

Rev 3:4-6
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

I only say that it would be “tenuous and temporary” because that is the effect of the RCC teaching that it dies or ceases to exist whenever a mortal sin is committed and confession is not yet made to a priest. It would be that RCC teaching that insults the strength of God, would it not?

No, God is faithful and just, and if we confess our sins, He forgives them. Sin separates us from God. It separates the sealed, just as it separated them before they were sealed. Why would we need someone to keep us from falling unless it were possible to fall? The sealing does not cease to exist, but the connection with the inheritance preserved in heaven is broken by sin. To restore the sealed to the imperishable inheritance, confession must occur. Unrepentant sin causes men to be cast into the fire of hell.