There's no OSAS

[guanophore]

The qualifications called for by Peter, your alleged “first pope,” included that the replacement for Judas must have been “with us from the first,” and he must be “a witness with us of His resurrection.”

Since that first generation of the church, no one meets those qualifications, neither have any performed the signs, wonders, miracles of a “true apostle.”

I think you are confusing enrollment with the 12 with the ministry of the Apostle. Paul does not meet all these criteria, but he was clearly called to be an Apostle (as were others mentioned in the NT). The signs, wonders, and miracles have also persisted.

Furthermore, Christ chose, and trained the inner circle of twelve to become the permanent apostles of the Lamb (Rev 21:14), the “twelve tribes” of the New Israel (Mt 19:28).

As a Catholic, you are required to believe that:
“GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)”

And that:
“GOD, BY AN ETERNAL RESOLVE OF HIS WILL, PREDESTINES CERTAIN MEN, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR FORESEEN SINS, TO ETERNAL REJECTION (De fide).”

(From Ott.)

The first froup can’t lose their salvation (“OSAS”), and the second group can’t lose their condemnation (“OCAC”).

Yes, this is true. But we are also taught that these concepts only apply to a few certain persons, and that most of us do not find ourselves in either category.

 

[guanophore]

It Seems To Me.

If, as you say, unrepentant mortal sin causes one to lose justification/salvation, then that one who “forfeits” the gift was never justified/saved to begin with.

This is so, because God states that everyone He justifies, He also glorifies; therefore, if one fails to be glorified, the reason is not, as you say because of “unrepentant sin,” but it is because God had never chosen that one to be finally glorified, and so, never justified that one in the first place (cf Rom 8:29-30).

The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Therefore, what God has done is not “undone”. A permanent mark has been made on the soul of one who has been justified. However, if one chooses not to walk in the way of the just, then one will not inherit the very great and precious promises that go with that state of grace.

Actually, scripture does not indicate that everyone who is justified is also glorified. Paul is speaking there of those who have already passed on to their heavenly reward. Those persons will persist in there state of grace because their salvation is completed. Those of us on earth who are justified look forward with patient endurace to becoming glorified, but we have not been yet. I would think that you would have no arguement with that.

 

[MementoMori3283]

What I think you mean is you have to work hard not to sin, because in your thinking, if you sin (and especially if it’s mortal sin), you lose your “salvation” and are on your way to hell if you don’t get to the priest in time to confess and get absolution. Since you have no security, least of which “eternal security,” you are “in” a state of “grace” or “out” of it, depending on your sinning and confessing. In one minute, out the next. Back in, back out. So you can be “saved” and lost again and saved again, millions of times before you ever die and face the judgment. Then it is only your hope that the LAST state, at death, is IN and not OUT. And you think that is scriptural and the truth???

And to top it all off, you think your works will keep you IN or lessen your chances of being OUT at death.

a very primitive understanding at best

I hope that someone responds to your first request. I will later for I do not have the time right now.

To your last sentence, what do you think of Jesus’ words when He says, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[sandusky]

I think you are confusing enrollment with the 12 with the ministry of the Apostle. Paul does not meet all these criteria, but he was clearly called to be an Apostle (as were others mentioned in the NT). The signs, wonders, and miracles have also persisted.

Paul does meet the qualifications, and listed the signs, wonders, and miracles that he performed as validation of his true apostleship.

guanophore:

Yes, this is true. But we are also taught that these concepts only apply to a few certain persons, and that most of us do not find ourselves in either category.

In which category do “most of your find yourselves,” as only two categories exist, and as Ott states, there is also no “third final state?”

 

[sandusky]

The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Therefore, what God has done is not “undone”. A permanent mark has been made on the soul of one who has been justified. However, if one chooses not to walk in the way of the just, then one will not inherit the very great and precious promises that go with that state of grace.

Actually, scripture does not indicate that everyone who is justified is also glorified. Paul is speaking there of those who have already passed on to their heavenly reward. Those persons will persist in there state of grace because their salvation is completed. Those of us on earth who are justified look forward with patient endurace to becoming glorified, but we have not been yet. I would think that you would have no arguement with that.

Thanks for your opinion, and unsupported assertions, I suppose.

 

[guanophore]

** Back on page 10, post no. 149, I replied to guanophore** with the following, which I don’t think he/she ever responded to. I invite him/her to do so now, or anyone else who can:

I think that you just did not like my response!

** I am trying to understand your concept of “eternal life” or “everlasting life,” what Scripture says is the free gift** of God. You say you get it at baptism, but your actions thereafter determine if you have it when you die. If your possession of it is so tenuous and temporary, how can it possibly be called “eternal” or “everlasting”?

This attitude requires a presumption of something that has not yet occurred. Catholics believe that our inheritance is being kept for us in heaven. Not that we have already attained, but we press on to the high mark that we find in Christ Jesus, laying hold of that which has laid hold of us. God is able to preserve what he has implanted within us to the last day. If you say it is “tenuous and temporary”, then you are insulting the strength of God, and not of man. It is God who keeps us, not we ourselves.

** If you ever HAVE everlasting life, how can it not last forever**? And don’t tell me it can be in hell, because that is not the gift of God, it is the wages of sin. It is not just eternal existence. It is eternal LIFE, not DEATH. And it is ETERNAL and EVERLASTING.

I agree. Those whom he justified, he also glorified. Once we come into our inheritance, we are in posession of it forever. It is only in this life, prior to when we have come into our inheritance, that we still have the capacity to spurn the gift of God.

Catholics don’t consider salvation as an event that happens at a single point in time, for all time, but a state, into which we are baptized, and out of which we are free to move.

 

[guanophore]

I anticipated that response, and am still disheartened by it.

IMHO, your statement epitomizes the works/righteousness theological construct—it’s all about what you do.

Do not be disheartened that you hold CAtholic beliefs. Have you never realized that you will be sharing eternal life with Catholics? Might as well make your peace while you are on the road…

I think you have this perception about staying in grace because you have somehow separated the effect of grace at justification from the effects of grace in sanctification. Catholics believe that the 10th vs of Eph 2 cannot be separated from 8-9. We are not saved just to be “saved” but to glorify the Father, and to produce fruit that befits repentance. The goal of salvation is the perfection of our faith. If you do not beleive that God is at work in you to will and to do His good pleasure, why try to change at all?

If you think it is possible to become the righteousness of God in Christ without God’s grace (as your persistent statements about “works salvation” seem to imply) then why be a Christian at all? Why not be a Pagan, and just behave morally?

Scripture strongly encourages the believer to trust in God, and to anticipate his entrance into the Kingdom with great confidence, and joy, and to live his life with that attitude (Rom 8:12-17; 1 Pet 1:3-9 etc.).

I agree, which is why I say that this “works/righteousness salvation” you have made up does not exist in Catholic soteriology, but only in your head. This is a misperception, and a very entrenched one!

Because God encourages the believer to obtain a confident attitude with respect to his salvation, the real sin of presumption, IMHO, lies with those who teach that a confident attitude is sin.

Having confidence in God’s promises is part of our faith practice. I think the difference is that we have a difference of understanding about what the promises are. Catholics believe that we must hold fast until the end, and the end is not until we pass from this life to the next.

Paul does meet the qualifications, and listed the signs, wonders, and miracles that he performed as validation of his true apostleship.

No, as your own quote from the book of Acts demonstrates, Paul did not follow Jesus from the beginning of His ministry, and did not witness him after the resurrection as did the 12. He was “untimely born”.

Thanks for your opinion, and unsupported assertions, I suppose.

Well, do you believe you have already been glorified, or do you deny that Paul applies this in the past tense?

 

[jcoldc]

This is crazy. I asked some questions very relevant to OSAS way back on page 10, repeated on page 23, and we are now at page 26 or 27 and neither you nor guanophore has specifically addressed them. So, now you want me to answer your question, which I can easily do, but then what? Continue to ignore mine? Did you ask me any questions before page 10 that I did not answer for you? Go back and answer mine and I guarantee I will answer your present question about the judgment seat. Fair enough?

In case you need help finding it on page 23, here it is:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3622017&posted=1#post3622017

Phil, I’m not sure what your problem with me is. I was not a part of this thread back on page 10. Sorry, if I didn’t address concerns that weren’t directed toward me. I feel like you are implying we are “in denial of the truth”.

But if you’re still looking for an answer about “in and out” salvation, that is not exactly correct. We also believe that God knows if repentence is truly in our hearts, and can say a perfect act of contrition. (Truly being sorry for having offended God, not for fear of going to hell.) This isn’t to replace confession. And I believe it isn’t highly publicized, only because people would take it too far and think it was a green light to not have to go to confession. (Why? Because confession can be really hard. But it is important not only for forgiveness but for the guidance from the priest. I also feel that if I can go and admit my sins infront of a priest I will be less likely to do them again. And as another poster once said, if I have a hard time admitting them infront of a priest who is also a sinner, imagine how hard it would be facing God with them? That’s pretty powerful.) Confession is an important sacrament that gives graces to the penitents. Most of us who have gone to confession, feel those graces. Also, confession is required to be in a state of grace for communion, another grace when received.

I had started another thread about the CCC requiring Catholics to go to confession only once a year. (I guess that is for another thread.) But that doesn’t seem to lend itself to a scary “gamble” salvation. But the way I understand it, if someone is repentent and plans on going to confession, God knows the intentions in his/her heart. (But why chance it? And why wait to be reunited with God? Sin is, afterall, turning away from God.) I am not terribly worried about my brakes failing on the side of a mountain, and plummiting to an unforseen, untimely death -if that’s what you are asking.

I tried my best. Of course I’m still a work in progress. So I hope I understood that correctly.

 

[guanophore]

In which category do “most of your find yourselves,” as only two categories exist, and as Ott states, there is also no “third final state?”

The one in which we do not presume to know, one way or the other. I am sure, when we reach “the final state” we will know as we are known. That is the major difference between Apostolic teaching and OSAS. Apostolic teaching does not consider salvation to be a completed action in the past. Some elements of it are, but other elements are ongoing, and some elements (the perfection of our faith) are in the future.

 

[sandusky]

The one in which we do not presume to know, one way or the other.

I see. You are being non-presumptive about which category you’re in.

 

[guanophore]

I see. You are being non-presumptive about which category you’re in.

This is because these categories are not applied to all. Some, God predestines to salvation, and some to perdition. Then there are those who are not either. I won’t claim to understand this business, and frankly, it has no impact on my daily life. To me, what matters is what happens in the here and now. Since I believe that each person is able to jump from the master’s hand, what is of most value to me is that I make sure I do not, and if I can prevent someone else from jumping out, or help them to jump in, so be it. Assurance of eternal security is not relevant to me for any of those things.

 

[jcoldc]

Phil, I’m not sure what your problem with me is. I was not a part of this thread back on page 10. Sorry, if I didn’t address concerns that weren’t directed toward me. I feel like you are implying we are “in denial of the truth”.

But if you’re still looking for an answer about “in and out” salvation, that is not exactly correct. We also believe that God knows if repentence is truly in our hearts, and can say a perfect act of contrition. (Truly being sorry for having offended God, not for fear of going to hell.) This isn’t to replace confession. And I believe it isn’t highly publicized, only because people would take it too far and think it was a green light to not have to go to confession. (Why? Because confession can be really hard. But it is important not only for forgiveness but for the guidance from the priest. I also feel that if I can go and admit my sins infront of a priest I will be less likely to do them again. And as another poster once said, if I have a hard time admitting them infront of a priest who is also a sinner, imagine how hard it would be facing God with them? That’s pretty powerful.) Confession is an important sacrament that gives graces to the penitents. Most of us who have gone to confession, feel those graces. Also, confession is required to be in a state of grace for communion, another grace when received.

I had started another thread about the CCC requiring Catholics to go to confession only once a year. (I guess that is for another thread.) But that doesn’t seem to lend itself to a scary “gamble” salvation. But the way I understand it, if someone is repentent and plans on going to confession, God knows the intentions in his/her heart. (But why chance it? And why wait to be reunited with God? Sin is, afterall, turning away from God.) I am not terribly worried about my brakes failing on the side of a mountain, and plummiting to an unforseen, untimely death -if that’s what you are asking.

I tried my best. Of course I’m still a work in progress. So I hope I understood that correctly.

Did I make sense there? I was in a hurry…

In the CCC 1452 and 1453, it talks about perfect and imperfect contrition. If you have perefect contrition, as discussed above, mortal sin is forgiven as long as you plan to go to confession as soon as possible. (ASAP is not defined.) So that is to say, the unlikely fatal car crash that could strike before you get to confession isn’t necessarily an issue, if you are sorry for turning away from God’s love and plan on confession.

 

[po18guy]

You seem to be having a difficult time giving me a straight answer; I understand.

That’s because I cannot understand what on earth you are asking and why it’s so important. Why not try again.

 

[brkn1]

In a moment? 180 degrees? Was it by Faith or FEAR? You really have to put yourself back in time to Sauls time and view this from a primitive man’s view(Yes, Primitive by our current comparative existence, this veiwing always seem to be abscent when one[protestant) is trying to in their mind, rightly dividing theWord of God)

3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4And he fell to the earth, (FEAR OF THE LIGHT, HE KNEW THE SOURCE WAS DVINE, SO FEAR IS RIGHTLY APPLIED GIVEN THE OT REQUIREMENTS AND VIRTUES OF FEARING GOD)

and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? (PAUL IS BEING CHARGED WITH PERSECUTION FROM A SOURCE TO BE FEARED)

6And he trembling(FEAR, NO DOUBT, PROBABLY THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO BE STRUCK DEAD AT ANY MOMENT LET ALONE BEING BLINDED) and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, **and it shall be told thee what thou must do

If Saul converted 180 degrees right there on the spot, It surely was not by Faith, but by Fear and Divine Intervention. And of a Fear that he might be blinded for life for persecuting followers of God.

Paul’s did not become a believer by FIRST BELIEVING, it was thru DIRECT DIVINE INTERVENTION AND THE FEAR OF GOD.

I could imagine, if Paul had his sight restored immediately, he would have run all the way to the city.

Reading scripture should be in the context of those it was happening to and in the context of era in which it was written. Scripture read with a modern mentality will create nothing but further divisions of the flock.

The words that get lost in this interpretation are Paul’s question:
“…, LORD, what will thou have me do?”
No doubt that fear may have been a main ingredient that Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, used to get Paul into the beloved as God’s servant. Paul did exactly what any servant was supposed to at that moment. Paul asked his LORD’s marching orders and obeyed.

Paul was now “a chosen vessel unto” the Lord Jesus Christ.

There can be no better or more permanent position than to be declared a chosen vessel unto the Lord. God does not chose sheep that will ever be lost. Jesus said that He would search out any of His chosen sheep that ever strays and bring them back to the fold.

ONCE CHOSEN ALWAYS CHOSEN

 

[po18guy]

This is because these categories are not applied to all. Some, God predestines to salvation, and some to perdition. Then there are those who are not either. I won’t claim to understand this business, and frankly, it has no impact on my daily life. To me, what matters is what happens in the here and now. Since I believe that each person is able to jump from the master’s hand, what is of most value to me is that I make sure I do not, and if I can prevent someone else from jumping out, or help them to jump in, so be it. Assurance of eternal security is not relevant to me for any of those things.

Amen! Calvin we are not! And, what arrogance supposes to know the mind of an infinite God? If our Lord Jesus Christ does not know the hour of His own return, how on earth is a sinful human supposed to know whom God pre-destines for Heaven or hell?

This is almost insane! Why spread the Gospel at all since, if we can know God’s intent for us, we can also know His intent for others? Let’s just preach to the saved. But wait! They’re going to Heaven anyway, and nothing we say or do changes that. Can’t preach to the condemned for the same reason. This derailed train of thought has lead directly to the perversion of a personal Savior into that of a “personal church”! Is this what the arrogance of Luther has come to?

Lord, have mercy!

 

[po18guy]

ONCE CHOSEN ALWAYS CHOSEN

So, God has removed our free will? What’s the purpose of satan, since he already has his souls, according to you? Undoubtedly, some are chosen, but whom? It is arrogance that presumes to know what the Almighty God alone knows. To deny that satan has power over your soul only confirms that you are not always saved. That is the evil one’s greatest deception.

Christ’s peace.

 

[sandusky]

Amen! Calvin we are not! And, what arrogance supposes to know the mind of an infinite God? If our Lord Jesus Christ does not know the hour of His own return, how on earth is a sinful human supposed to know whom God pre-destines for Heaven or hell?

This is almost insane! Why spread the Gospel at all since, if we can know God’s intent for us, we can also know His intent for others? Let’s just preach to the saved. But wait! They’re going to Heaven anyway, and nothing we say or do changes that. Can’t preach to the condemned for the same reason. This derailed train of thought has lead directly to the perversion of a personal Savior into that of a “personal church”! Is this what the arrogance of Luther has come to?

Lord, have mercy!

I love Catholic histrionics.

 

[distracted]

Belief is a prerequisite to baptism.

Not if you’re Catholic (and a few others)… We baptize babies…

Baptism guarantees nothing (cf Mk 16:16).

Who says? You?

sorry, i am going to trust the Church Christ established, not you…

 

[po18guy]

I love Catholic histrionics.

Not so fast! It’s actually “lurid fervency”. There’s a difference.

p.s. Refute it then! Your immortal soul is at stake and you decry passion for the Lord? I’m praying if I don’t get back for a while.

 

[brkn1]

Not if you’re Catholic (and a few others)… We baptize babies…

Who says? You?

sorry, i am going to trust the Church Christ established, not you…

So Catholics don’t believe that < Belief is a prerequisite to baptism>.

Let us go to Scripture to see if that holds up:

(Acts 8:36-37) "…water: and the eunuch said, See here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptised?

And Philip said, If thou believest with ALL thy heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Something must have got lost in the RCC Latin translation.

In case you are wondering, the story has a very happy ending:

The eunuch “went on his way rejoicing.” forevermore as a forever saved, once and for all eternity saved with the beloved in Christ. Amen!!!

I added a little to the story, but Catholic translations seem to do the same , so I’m in good company. <company