There's no OSAS

[JRKH]

By that standard, you would not have a chance at salvation either, unless you also perform such miracles. It is faith alone that saves, according to the bible; but you seem to disqualify everyone but the apostles and a few early saints with your understanding of what Jesus was saying.

If it were in God’s Will, the mustard seed of faith would allow one to do miracles as Jesus said.

It’s interesting that you feel that the bible is sooooo clear about when it says anything supportive of OSAS, but when the Bible says something else, just as clearly, there seems to be some need for “understanding of what Jesus said”.

Jesus clearly says that real true faith, even a little is capable of great miracles.
“All these things I do, you will do also”, or something similar. (I don’t Have my bible handy and it’s late)

Let’s look at a logical progression:
So Jesus tells us that We are saved by faith, then gives us something concrete to measure our faith by.
Now, if you believe that faith is the only thing that saves, it needs to be the right kind of faith.
Since Jesus tells us what the right kind of faith is, this must be the measure.
If a person is not displaying this kind of faith then how can that person be sure they are saved?

This is a strictly Bible based logic. Assuming you take Jesus at his word.

Peace
James

 

[DCD]

Do Catholics believe that one is justified (saved) by faith alone?

Or, do they believe that one is justified by faith + works?

Your answer will answer your question in your post above.

When one apprehends the Catholic notion that the justified can lose their salvation on the basis of their sin, one grasps that Catholic salvation can be nothing but by works, and not by grace no matter the denials, IMO.

If your salvation can be lost based upon poor performance (mortal sin), then that salvation is ultimately performance, or works based, ISTM.

As Trent states:And, for this cause, life eternal is to be proposed to those working well unto the end, and hoping in God, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Jesus Christ, and as a reward which is according to the promise of God Himself, to be faithfully rendered to their good works and merits. For this is that crown of justice which the Apostle declared was, after his fight and course, laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming. For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified, as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace…Trent gives the nod to God’s grace and to Christ’s sacrifice, and the infusion of His virtue, but, they also conclude that the believer has "truly merited eternal life."

Trent was fighting the Reformation cry of the “solas,” in this instance, justification by “faith alone,” and clearly states the opposite.

Catholics believe we are saved by grace. The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Per the Catechism. That is why we can say we are saved by both faith and works. The protestant in order to appease his conscience leaves that out in the Sunday sermon, the Wednesday night bible study, or the water cooler discussion. Some of this is ignorance sometimes it’s not. The Truth needs no defense, and when it is presented accurately, tends to bring some of the best and brightest Home to Christ’s Church.

God Bless,
DCD

 

[po18guy]

How did the question get around to me being the one worried about salvation?
I belong to the group who is sure of my salvation, which precludes the need for such worry.

OK. So, why ask the following then?

Originally Posted by brkn1 You seem to claim that as the formula for salvation by your use of the example of what Jesus told the rich young man.

Salvation should not even cross your consciousness unless there is doubt.

That question must be an example of what they call projection in the science of psychology. You ascribe to another what you are feeling about yourself. I would be worried too, if I were not sure of my salvation.

It must be blissful, being in that state. You forget the example of Judas. He was called, baptized, believed, travelled, ate, taught, cast out demons and healed with Christ. He was “Saved” by anyone’s definition of saved. But, why did Christ say about him “But, woe unto him by which the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for him if he had never been born”

And why did Christ teach that “He who perseveres to the end will be saved”?

Assurance of salvation puts the Lord your God to the test by, essentially “daring” him not to save you. Do you believe that blaspheming the Holy Spirit will still get you a ticket to Heaven?

OSAS implies that you can go on a rampage of rape, robbery and murder and still get to Heaven. Just be sure to throw out a quick “forgive me” as you move on to the next victim. Not!

I am trying, for the sake of my soul, to persevere.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

You’re avoiding the questions asked; why is that?

Here they are again regarding Acts 16:31:**What is Paul’s response to the jailer’s question?

Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…?

Or, Believe in the Lord Jesus, and be baptized, and you will be saved?**What was Paul’s response?

I’m not sure what you mean. Of course he had to believe. But the very next thing was that he, and even more importantly, his household, were baptized. That means children, maybe even infants.

Also, what do you mean baptism replaced circumcision; in what way? Circumcision only affected the men in the OT, correct? What did baptism replace for the women?

Circumcision was the sign of observance of the old covenant. It was reserved to men. Baptism is the initiation into the New Covenant. It replaced the former sign, but of course applies to all equally Why? That’s a question that will not be answered on this earth. We just accept it at face value.

Christ’s peace.

 

[jcoldc]

Also women were considered pretty poorly prior to Jesus. They were property slaves, and weren’t thought to have souls. All of a sudden Jesus paid attention to them, all through the NT. It makes sense that where once they weren’t included, now are.

 

[sandusky]

I’m not sure what you mean. Of course he had to believe. But the very next thing was that he, and even more importantly, his household, were baptized. That means children, maybe even infants.

What was Paul’s response to the Philippians jailer’s question concerning what he had to do
to believe?

Baptism is the initiation into the New Covenant.

Where is that stated?

 

[sandusky]

It’s interesting that you feel that the bible is sooooo clear about when it says anything supportive of OSAS, but when the Bible says something else, just as clearly, there seems to be some need for “understanding of what Jesus said”.

Jesus clearly says that real true faith, even a little is capable of great miracles.
“All these things I do, you will do also”, or something similar. (I don’t Have my bible handy and it’s late)

Let’s look at a logical progression:
So Jesus tells us that We are saved by faith, then gives us something concrete to measure our faith by.
Now, if you believe that faith is the only thing that saves, it needs to be the right kind of faith.
Since Jesus tells us what the right kind of faith is, this must be the measure.
If a person is not displaying this kind of faith then how can that person be sure they are saved?

This is a strictly Bible based logic. Assuming you take Jesus at his word.

Peace
James

 

[Phil12123]

Why do you insist on harping on your unanswered questions, when you don’t answer other people’s questions? Are you here to “enlighten” us or to troll and knock some heads?

If you are so saved, and all you have to do to be saved is call Jesus your lord and savior, why is it in the bible that God will be our judge? Please let me know if you need references? What would God need to judge if everyone knew they were going to heaven as assuredly as you do?

And as previously posted, if someone who is saved can be endowed with the title “never saved to begin with” at some point after, then doesn’t it seem that what really determines if they are saved, is the works they do (or don’t do) after? I think it is possible for someone to feel like they HAVE to go around doing good (or more honorably not messing it up by doing something bad) in order to ensure they don’t get slapped with “never saved to begin with”.

Nice “answer”. That sort of “answer” is why I had to re-ask the questions. Try again. Answer me, truthfully and honestly, before you expect me to even bother with your own questions.

 

[DCD]

I anticipated that response, and am still disheartened by it.

IMHO, your statement epitomizes the works/righteousness theological construct—it’s all about what you do.

Scripture strongly encourages the believer to trust in God, and to anticipate his entrance into the Kingdom with great confidence, and joy, and to live his life with that attitude (Rom 8:12-17; 1 Pet 1:3-9 etc.).

Because God encourages the believer to obtain a confident attitude with respect to his salvation, the real sin of presumption, IMHO, lies with those who teach that a confident attitude is sin./QUOTE

Rom 8 is full of if’s. Does Christ’s attonement on the cross fulfill all the requirements of the law? Rom 8:4 says, “in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us.” We are called by God to participate. We have to make the application. How? By obedience Rom 6:15-16. How can we be obedient? By His Grace.

Have you ever heard the phrase, “The Mystical Body of Christ”? The meaning is that Christ lives in all Christians. The practical result of this, for us, is that now on earth the whole of Christ’s life is always being lived; the things that happened to Him on earth are happening to Him now in His members. The things that He did on earth He is doing now through us. What did he come to do on earth? He came to Redeem which he did, and is doing, and continues to do through His members, past, present and future. Salvation in the individual is a past, present and future event. OSAS is a tradition of man and within historical Christianity a relatively new one.

If I had to pick just one verse, and I could pick many to demonstrate the error of OSAS it would be Heb. 5:4-8. This dire warning is for the Christian. Thank God for this warning which should be sufficient for us not to commit the sin of presumption.

Pax,
Peace

 

[brkn1]

If I had to pick just one verse, and I could pick many to demonstrate the error of OSAS it would be Heb. 5:4-8. This dire warning is for the Christian. Thank God for this warning which should be sufficient for us not to commit the sin of presumption.

Pax,
Peace

Please tell me that you typed the wrong verse numbers when you used (Hebrews 5:4-8).

If not, please explain how you chose these verses as supporting your position. Thanks.

PS You must have been referring to Hebrews 6: 4-8

 

[DCD]

Please tell me that you typed the wrong verse numbers when you used (Hebrews 5:4-8).

If not, please explain how you chose these verses as supporting your position. Thanks.

PS You must have been referring to Hebrews 6: 4-8

Thank you so much. This is why nobody should pay attention to me. Yes you are correct. Heb. 6:4-8. The painkillers must be taking effect.

Pax,
DCD

 

[sandusky]

DCD:

Rom 8 is full of if’s. Does Christ’s attonement on the cross fulfill all the requirements of the law? Rom 8:4 says, “in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us.” We are called by God to participate. We have to make the application. How? By obedience Rom 6:15-16. How can we be obedient? By His Grace.

Have you ever heard the phrase, “The Mystical Body of Christ”? The meaning is that Christ lives in all Christians. The practical result of this, for us, is that now on earth the whole of Christ’s life is always being lived; the things that happened to Him on earth are happening to Him now in His members. The things that He did on earth He is doing now through us. What did he come to do on earth? He came to Redeem which he did, and is doing, and continues to do through His members, past, present and future. Salvation in the individual is a past, present and future event. OSAS is a tradition of man and within historical Christianity a relatively new one.

If I had to pick just one verse, and I could pick many to demonstrate the error of OSAS it would be Heb. 5:4-8. This dire warning is for the Christian. Thank God for this warning which should be sufficient for us not to commit the sin of presumption.

ISTM that the point of your post is that “OSAS” is not biblical; there are different types of “OSAS,” and I would agree with you that some types of “OSAS” are not biblical; however, “OSAS” or “perseverance of the elect,” if you will, is clearly taught in Scripture, and it is also an essential component of RC teaching on predestination;De fide therefore, Heb 6:4ff, does not mean that the elect can lose their salvation; it must be that your misunderstanding of biblical “OSAS” has led you to a faulty understanding of Heb 6.

Again, according to Rom 8:30, everyone God justifies, He also glorifies. I know that stands in stark contrast to what you’ve been taught (that through mortal sin one can lose justification, even fully, and finally), but that’s not true.

 

[DCD]

ISTM that the point of your post is that “OSAS” is not biblical; there are different types of “OSAS,” and I would agree with you that some types of “OSAS” are not biblical; however, “OSAS” or “perseverance of the elect,” if you will, is clearly taught in Scripture, and it is also an essential component of De fide RC teaching on predestination; therefore, Heb 6:4ff, does not mean that the elect can lose their salvation; it must be that your misunderstanding of biblical “OSAS” has led you to a faulty understanding of Heb 6.

Again, according to Rom 8:30, everyone God justifies, He also glorifies. I know that stands in stark contrast to what you’ve been taught (that through mortal sin one can lose justification, even fully, and finally), but that’s not true.

What is ISTM? It would be through unrepented mortal sin that you forfeit the gift.

Pax,
DCD

 

[guanophore]

I saved this part of your post, because it seems to define the mindset of many as they relate to God.

I completely agree with the idea of our getting to heaven depending soley on God’s mercy.

But then you go and say that you want “to do all that you can to be worthy” of that very mercy soley provided by God.

The fact is that there is nothing you could ever do to be “worthy” of the least bit of mercy God freely provides you by His Grace.

I agree with you

It would be far better to simply praise, thank, obey, and worship our Mercifully Gracious God Who is the only One Worthy and Good.

Two questions. 1) Who is to decide what is “far better”? I mean, why is your idea of what is “better” of more value than what we have received from the Apostles? 2) Why must the two be separated? If we are abiding in Christ, we are bearing good fruit. One does not bear fruit by human effort. Fruit appears on trees that are properly rooted, fed, and watered. They do not “choose” to grow fruit. It is a natural occurance due to the nature of the tree, is it not?

The motivation to be worthy of God’s Mercy should not come out of the idea that we can ever deserve that Mercy in any way of ourselves; but that motivation should come out of our response in awe and gratitude and love for a God that would provide such a great Mercy on such miserable and undeserving beings as we were without Him.

This is very Catholic of you to say!

Our just reward after corporeal death should be eternal damnation, if it were not for the Mercy and Grace of Our Awesome God and Redeemer, Who provided a Way for us to be justified by Him alone, which saves us from what we truly would have deserved even now, without His Mercy, Grace, and Patient Love for us.

Yes. Catholics don’t see a separation between the grace that justifies us, and the grace that is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure.

Merit: reward or punishment earned or deserved.
: to be worthy of or entitled or liable to
: EARN

The real reason you must reject OSAS is because it makes a person unable to EARN some part of their salvation by works.

Actually, no. The main reason is that this is “another gospel” (different than what we received from the Apostles). However, a person could believe they could earn salvation without the notion of eternal security. This is basically pelagianism.

A person already saved can not earn that free gift of salvation anymore.

A person already saved has a very different motivation to do the resulting works of true faith, which are only possible after having received the free gift of eternal salvation.

Well, they could not “earn” it in the first place! I thought we agreed on that?

I am not so sure it is appropriate to judge the motivation of others, but I do agree with you that motivation to do good that springs from gratitude (as opposed to the fear of hell) is much superior. However, there still must be a way to fit the notion of “reward” into soteriology.

“Look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for, but may win a full reward.” 2 John 8

There are many passages like this one that indicate that there are rewards, and that they can be lost or won depending on the actions of the believer.

" Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ. 25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality." Col 3:23-25

It cannot be avoided that, in many places, we are enjoined to “work heartily” because there will be a reward. Any work separated from the grace by which we are saved will be of no eternal value. This is why Catholics do not separate this work from the grace that enables us to do it.

 

[brkn1]

Thank you so much. This is why nobody should pay attention to me. Yes you are correct. Heb. 6:4-8. The painkillers must be taking effect.

Pax,
DCD

The verses in Hebrews 6:4-8 might not be the best ones to use to argue against OSAS.

Even if it were interpreted incorrectly, it goes against the idea that the RCC presents about the salvation “process”.

Heb. 6:4…“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.”
This verse could not fit into the RCC position, since they do not believe that there is a “once enlightened” position in the “process” of being saved. This partaking of the grace of the Holy Spirit is supposed to be a “gradual process”, not a single “once enlightening”.
This verse speaks of a position of being enlightened now before death, which then means from the later verses, that the enlightened position had better not be lost (falling away by sin etc.), or there is then NO way “to renew them again unto repentance;”.
That would mean the Pope could not even pardon you, since there is NO way to renew.

The correct interpretation of (Hebrews 6:4) has to be speaking of those people, such as Judas, who tasted of the heavenly gift, as the Holy Spirit got very close and personal, as He tried to woo that person towards eternal salvation by the free gift of faith in Jesus Christ, and that person then knowingly (from actual experience) and deliberately refused to “eat” (accept) that obvious offer of eternal salvation; then it is over with no second chances. That sort of rejection of the Holy Spirit’s immediate and obvious offer will result in a hardened heart that can never respond again to grace.

These verses support the idea of a “before death” obtaining of the Holy Spirit’s gift of eternal life, or it could not be considered as refused before death obviously. Even interpreted incorrectly, the “before death” rejection applies, which contradicts the RCC position.

 

[guanophore]

The reason or motivation why a OSAS person does those works of faith are not the same as those who consider such works as being a part of “trying to at least partly make themselves worthy” of the already free gift of salvation.
Doing good works of faith out of gratitude and love for our Saviour is not at all the same as doing those works as part of qualifying ourselves to “maybe be saved in the end”.

I think that Jesus is very clear in His precious promises that He will give eternal life to those who remain in him. How is it you make this into a “maybe”?

I am also curious what you think of this passage:

Acts 13:46-47
“It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.”

Christ clearly stated that we are to do all that is commanded to us, and to have an attitude of humility about it:

Luke 17:10
10 So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’"

I agree with you that Roman Catholics do seem to have a pre-occupation with “duty”.

What made the Apostles “worthy” to suffer?

Acts 5:41
1 Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name."

Why should the performance of deeds in any way be separated from the repentance that resulted in the infusion of grace that makes them posssible?

Acts 26:20-21
“that they should repent and turn to God and perform deeds worthy of their repentance.”

How is living a life “worthy of the calling” a disdain of the grace that seals us in that calling?

Eph 4:1
4:1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called…"

Those not certain of being saved, can only be thankful for the opportunity of maybe getting saved by grace in the end. The joy of having a present eternal salvation can not exist, since they are never sure of that possession in this life. Death still holds a possible “sting” to the uncertain and they can not honestly say, “O death, where is thy sting?” in this life, as Paul did.

I think not. Presumption upon God is basically the same as expecting “wages” from him. It is a way of supposing that God “owes” us eternal salvation because we made a profession of faith. In either case, a person does not have any need for “hope” if one is sure. That would make admonishment to press on in hope ridiculuous.

Catholics trust that our inheritance is kept for us:

1 Peter 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

But only partly revealed in this life.

 

[guanophore]

“Time tested” is quite a claim. I thought you folks were not sure about anyone’s eventual salvation (except Mary) and only God knew the final results of your sacraments. I was told it was something due to your “humility” that you were never sure of the result, but here you now claim a “time tested” good result. Where is all that humility now?

Time tested, verily. Not only do we see this in the NT, but in the early fathers. I don’t want to get too far off topic, but the Catholic understanding of baptism has been consistent from the time that John appeared and began to teach.

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism

1. And concerning baptism, thus baptize ye: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. 2. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. 3. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. 4. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before. (Didache)

Now concerning the knowledge of the saved, we know all those in heaven about which God has revealed to us, these are called “saints”. We can certainly be sure of the results of the sacraments, according to what has been revealed to us also. I think you are conflating a lack of presumption upon God with a lack of confidence in Him.

Ps 12:6
6 The promises of the LORD are promises that are pure,
silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times. "

This passage from Peter addresses many of the issues you have brought up:

"His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. 5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. " 2 Peter 1:3-9

Notice he says that the grace we have been given “may” give us escape. We are not only to just trust in His divine nature, but to partake of it (being made into His image and likeness). This is why we “make every effort” to supplement (add to) our faith with all these virtues. Our efforts will make us effective and fruitful for God.****

 

[DCD]

The verses in Hebrews 6:4-8 might not be the best ones to use to argue against OSAS.

Even if it were interpreted incorrectly, it goes against the idea that the RCC presents about the salvation “process”.

Heb. 6:4…“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.”
This verse could not fit into the RCC position, since they do not believe that there is a “once enlightened” position in the “process” of being saved. This partaking of the grace of the Holy Spirit is supposed to be a “gradual process”, not a single “once enlightening”.
This verse speaks of a position of being enlightened now before death, which then means from the later verses, that the enlightened position had better not be lost (falling away by sin etc.), or there is then NO way “to renew them again unto repentance;”.
That would mean the Pope could not even pardon you, since there is NO way to renew.

The correct interpretation of (Hebrews 6:4) has to be speaking of those people, such as Judas, who tasted of the heavenly gift, as the Holy Spirit got very close and personal, as He tried to woo that person towards eternal salvation by the free gift of faith in Jesus Christ, and that person then knowingly (from actual experience) and deliberately refused to “eat” (accept) that obvious offer of eternal salvation; then it is over with no second chances. That sort of rejection of the Holy Spirit’s immediate and obvious offer will result in a hardened heart that can never respond again to grace.

These verses support the idea of a “before death” obtaining of the Holy Spirit’s gift of eternal life, or it could not be considered as refused before death obviously. Even interpreted incorrectly, the “before death” rejection applies, which contradicts the RCC position.

Well consider this, the “once enlightened” is referring to Baptism. In the early church Baptism was called the Sacrament of Illumination. The following words also agree, “and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.” Baptism:thumbsup: All which signify the interior graces, the miraculous gifts, and power of working miracles, which they who were baptized frequently recieved in those days. They can’t be “renewed again unto penance.” That means no second Baptism. Which is a mortal sin of sacrilege.

So this in no way contradicts the Roman Catholic postion of justification, sanctification, and salvation as a process.

Pax,
DCD

 

[DCD]

Heb.4 is pointing out the effects of Baptism. The total removal of eternal and temporal punishment due to sin cannot be repeated. And you can’t have the temporal effects of sin washed away in Confession. This has nothing to do with the Pope or a priest for that matter not being able to absolve us of our sins in the Sacrament of Penance. What a wonderful gift Our Lord has given us in His Sacraments.

Thanks for giving me the correct verse.
Pax,
DCD

 

[brkn1]

Well consider this, the “once enlightened” is referring to Baptism. In the early church Baptism was called the Sacrament of Illumination. The following words also agree, “and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.” Baptism:thumbsup: All which signify the interior graces, the miraculous gifts, and power of working miracles, which they who were baptized frequently recieved in those days. They can’t be “renewed again unto penance.” That means no second Baptism. Which is a mortal sin of sacrilege.

So this in no way contradicts the Roman Catholic postion of justification, sanctification, and salvation as a process.

Pax,
DCD

If I should allow the RCC interpretation of “once enlightened” to be Baptism, then how is that idea of it being “impossible” to “renew again unto repentance” work?

Without that repentance, there can be no chance of salvation anymore.

Please explain how one falls away from Baptism too, if you could. Thanks.