Actually, I am one Catholic who believes in a form of “eternal security” - just not the usual idea of it…
I thought you said we in the RCC are never “sure”??
neither do i… I trust the Holy Church that Christ Himself established - not ones created by men (M. Luther, Calvin, James Wright
… )Catholics don’t follow human traditions either… they follow divine traditions, traditions God wants us to follow… Jesus only condemned man-made, not ALL tradition…
True… and that is probably why Jesus said (St. Matthew 7:23) that even those who do mighty deeds in his name will be rejected… why he said that many will not make it, that they will not be “strong enough” (St. Luke 13:24??).
So what Catholic is going to (or has) disputed this?? I’ve never once heard any Catholic argue w/ that… (in all my life…)
The RCC says no such thing. It teaches that only through Christ can one enter Heaven… (although those who don’t know about Christ can get into Heaven through indirectly knowing Christ, meaning by following their consciences… by following truth…). The Church does not teach you have to be Catholic to be saved… (although it definitely helps… Jesus knew what he was doing when He “built His Church” [St. Matthew 16:18…].)
I see no “eternal securirty” in your unusual idea of it.
I think you must be getting frustrated on this thread, brkn1, because it seems like you are making unfounded and slanderous statements. What is your goal in doing that? Now that you have made this assertion, you are obligated to show in the Church Teachings where this is taught.
This may come as a surprise to you, but the Apostolic faith is not so much about having security for ourselves as it is about following Christ. In fact, many times following God tenaciously puts on in many insecure conditions. But our security is with Him, who is seated at the right hand of God, and our citizenship is there. It is not necessary for us to have security now, since we know we will have it eternally. Indeed, for His sake, “we are being killed all day long”!
This is from Post #550 from our professional.When understood in the proper context.
Actually it’s John 10 not 11at amatuers.
Council of Trent
and other sheep those that are justified but not the elect. Those Elect are far and few. We the other sheep are many.that’s the problem that is blind to the OSAS believer. there is no incentive to try to do better. one OSAS person may try, the other not at all. they can keep abusing everyone without any remorse, as long as they remember a scripture verse or two, that will be their excuse when they meet God. there is no need for any degree of repentance of penance - no need to make up for the person you hurt, it’s up to you. for someone comparing religions for beneficial purposes, this notion of salvation just fails miserably.
That’s not eternal security (if there is an if in there, such as: You are eternally secure if you do/don’t do something, then it is not eternal security).
There are incentives for the OSAS believer to ‘do better’:
The Church is correctly denouncing justification by faith alone, which is not scriptural.
weak. temporal punishment is just that, temporary. no one cares about temporary, they care about forever.
Another View of Faith and Works in James 2The Church is correctly denouncing justification by faith alone, which is not scriptural.
James 2
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
There is countless other Scripture that disproves justification by faith alone. The same is true of OSAS.
Peace,
Ryan
Loss of eternal rewards is not temporary. Also, remember Moses was Saved in the end, so his ‘permanent’ punishment was not eternally permanent (he even ends up in the Promised Land…read the story of the Transfiguration again, he is standing with Jesus on the mountain). Also, the thief who is given life imprisonment (or even the death penalty) has not received an eternal punishment, you just agreed that it motivates not to to wrong. Both Moses’ and that hypothetical thief’s punishments are temporal in nature. And, obviously, the kid who loses the use of video games or something is suffering a temporal punishment.
Interesting article. I disagree with alot of it but I like finding out about other faith traditions. I’d love to discuss it, but it would be better suited in a different thread. If you ever start one about this article send me a private message.
I did find this explanation helpful, but it does present a few Scriptural problems:The whole sheep thing is rhetorical.
We can take a look at a real shepherd and real sheep and examine the what reality is.
The sheep know the voice of the shepherd. That is true. But the ability to hear the voice is relative. If the Sheep becomes deaf or is deaf then the sheep cannot hear the voice. Sometimes the Sheep are at play and are so involved in something else, that they don’t hear the voice. Some sheep even wander off so far that they can’t hear the voice at all.
Some sheep in the flock are picked for breeding to progate the betterment of the species - analogy to this is that the Elect are those God has chosen for vocations (Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers
The Shepherd will anguish over the loss of a sheep. Sometimes it is not prudent to go after the lost sheep immediately because the whole flock may be put in danger. The Shepherd after the flock has been corraled or given over to the care of another Sheperd, may go find the lost sheep. If it is found, it is a great Joy. If not, it is a great sorrow.
Only when you can understand the nature of the shepherd and the nature of the sheep, can you then understand the rhetoric of the shepherd and the sheep in scripture.
Hope this helps?:tiphat:
I understand the RCC position on denouncing faith alone, although I disagree with it.The Church is correctly denouncing justification by faith alone, which is not scriptural.
James 2
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
There is countless other Scripture that disproves justification by faith alone. The same is true of OSAS.
Peace,
Ryan
Yes, the Church teaches that OSAS does apply to some. She also teaches that we are not to presume that we are included in the “some”, so we are to focus on persevering to the end, and not presume upon the grace of God that this perseverance is not necessary.