They hate us, they really hate us

[TimothyH]

This thread is similar to the thread re communion while kneeling/on the tounge started by the original poster at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=567122 just last night.

I’m sure that marthaferretti has a deep love for the Church and traditional forms of worship but it seems as if the effect of these types of posts is to pit Catholics against Catholics.

And this nonsense about hate really needs to stop.

Brother JR’s response in the thread last night is even more relevant now.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7940964&postcount=28

-Tim-

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I got angry and I wanted to scream when I read ‘NO Mass’.

I cannot imagine that anyone use it without association to no Mass.

Every valid Mass is the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and there is just one Christ and one Mass, only several forms and several rites, representing the the same Christ.

Well, TLM and NO are somewhat dated styles.

The preferred is EF and OF. I will be GLAD to put ‘OF’ rather than "NO’ but since Pope Benedict himself mandated what had been called the TLM as now the EF, maybe if we all used EF and OF it would be clearer.

 

[malphono]

Well, TLM and NO are somewhat dated styles.

The preferred is EF and OF. I will be GLAD to put ‘OF’ rather than "NO’ but since Pope Benedict himself mandated what had been called the TLM as now the EF, maybe if we all used EF and OF it would be clearer.

FWLIW, personally I prefer Usus Antiquior and Novus Ordo. Can’t get much clearer than that.

 

[zab]

Even if no Catholic in the world ‘knew’ the TLM had not been abrogated, that wouldn’t have made it abrogated.

And as I said, there were places in the U.S. where it was licitly celebrated, so the idea as was originally stated by one poster that the nun was ‘right’ in her criticism because 'there was no LICIT TLM at the time" is what I’m objecting to.

First, the TLM was always licit.
Second, it was being celebrated (at least by some) even if ‘many’ were not aware.
Third, even if the sister truly thought (however erroneously) that it was ‘abrogated’, her response would still be wrong because the TLM was still licit.

Your right. But you missed the point.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I don’t like seeing an adversarial ‘creep’ but the fact is that there are some who at least harbor a ‘dislike’ for one form or the other, whether you call it EF and OF, TLM and NO, ‘traditional’ or 'liberal/contemporary".

And too often one POV has marginalized the other. That does need to stop, but not necessarily by ‘stopping the conversation.’ Hard as it is, letting the venom ‘out’ so to speak is healthier than attempting to ‘ignore’ that it’s there and trying to force a ‘shut up so that we look like we get along’ attitude (NOT that I am saying you personally are saying anything of the kind!)

Probably we still have several years to go of threads which will inevitably lead to being ‘closed’ due to lack of charity but I have noticed that in many cases voices (on both sides) which started out being ‘defensive’ have, upon being heard in charity, lost much of that defensiveness.

Yes there are still some out there with some venom still but the more they are heard and understood, the greater the chance of ultimate healing.

And this is the case on both ‘sides.’

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Your right. But you missed the point.

Could be. . .but I’m not sure that there weren’t two points, and I got one of them.

 

[Cider]

I got angry and I wanted to scream when I read ‘NO Mass’.

Well it’s the magisterium that named the mass of Paul VI the Novus Ordo, so take it up with them. To assume that everyone that uses the shorthand NO is implying the word no is something only you can control in your mind.

 

[ProVobis]

It should be considered good advice no matter which form of the Latin Rite one prefers.

My preference for the OF would be in Latin (per Vatican II) but I guess that puts me in a very tiny minority.

 

[William_Pitts]

Non est enim mortua Latin

 

[Robert_Burns]

I’ve got my own theory why some Catholics literally hate the traditions of the Church. To other traditional Catholics, do you have any theories for this hatred?

Holy Mass is Holy Mass. To HATE it is to HATE GOD IMO

And BTW to those who do not have an Affinity for the Latin Mass - keep in mind - The Latin in a Latin Mass is Directed by the Priest to GOD not the people.

So , the Latin is not for us , it is Offered to GOD FOR Us by the Priest.

I think that if more Catholics would take the time to learn their Faith in all its forms rather than to rely on preconcieved notions of what some of us THINK it is - many of these issues would become non issues.

 

[Lormar]

I’ve got my own theory why some Catholics literally hate the traditions of the Church. To other traditional Catholics, do you have any theories for this hatred?

Yes, I do.

 

[PaulinVA]

My twist on Sally Field’s words.
…They then made several announcements and asked attendees if we had any announcements we wanted to make.

It took the opportunity to make my announcement and give an explanation about the new chapter of Una Voce, which is a worlwide lay organization founded in 1964 which assists the bishops of the world in promoting the celebration of the TLM. I then went on to explain that the TLM was the Mass the Church celebrated worldwide prior to the NO Mass being promulgated in 1969 by Pope Paul VI.

If I may, I have to ask, as I have before on these threads where you pull the pin and throw a grenade into the Traditional forum, why are you posting about incidents that occurred in the last century?

So, you went to a contemporary gathering of people interested in learning about the Catholic Church in an informal environment. You then, during a request for announcements, beat the drum about the TLM and cast aspersions on the Mass each and every one of these people were either attending or thinking about attending.

What reaction would you expect? I would consider you someone with an agenda trying to hijack my meeting and turn people off from the Church.

How has confrontation been working for you? Do you find you are successful bringing people over to your way of thinking?

 

[At_Trent]

I’ve got my own theory why some Catholics literally hate the traditions of the Church. To other traditional Catholics, do you have any theories for this hatred?

I think what many want is an easier Catholicism.

-why kneel to receive when standing helps save time ?
-why confess frequently when the Church says a couple of times a year is fine ?
-why can’t we use contraception ? We can’t afford more than one child.
-why Latin Mass ? missals are too much trouble
-why can’t girls be altar servers ? they will get their feelings hurt if we tell them no
-what’s wrong with EMHC’s ? it gets us out of Mass faster
-why bother with Thursday Holy Days ? It’s inconvenient

us, us, us - that’s what it’s all about isn’t it ?

"A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken him?”
Pope Pius XII

 

[FaustinaClare]

It seems no matter where you go someone is going to not like something about the Mass.

Here people complain about being persecuted b/c they are traditional and like the TLM or the EF and how people aren’t tolerant of the past, etc.

Other places I’ve been told that to go to the OF or the NO mass is a sacrilege and you are only truly receiving Christ in the TLM

It goes both ways and I, for one, am sick of it. I am a convert and I enjoy both forms of the Mass. I tend to lean towards the traditional but I don’t understand why there has to be this constant nit picking and criticizing!

 

[At_Trent]

If I may, I have to ask, as I have before on these threads where you pull the pin and throw a grenade into the Traditional forum, why are you posting about incidents that occurred in the last century?

So, you went to a contemporary gathering of people interested in learning about the Catholic Church in an informal environment. You then, during a request for announcements, beat the drum about the TLM and cast aspersions on the Mass each and every one of these people were either attending or thinking about attending.

What reaction would you expect? I would consider you someone with an agenda trying to hijack my meeting and turn people off from the Church.

How has confrontation been working for you? Do you find you are successful bringing people over to your way of thinking?

Better to keep the Summorum Pontificum under wraps huh ?

 

[rben20]

To the OP…why even post about the hostility towards the TLM of a nun when you have hostility right here on a traditional forum ironically enough. “Worshiping worship” is a terrible line and shame on you who acknowledge such a venomous post. I have seriously lost all interest in the traditional forum as it has become a place of snipers who shoot down anything traditional as in pre-vatican II or should I say vipers? I know it’s the internet but show some class people…class.

 

[TrueLight]

And as a convert from Baptist/non-denomenationalism, maybe my perspective on this ought to at least be worth considering: a TLM would be very unwelcoming to me and any others not fluent in Latin (pretty much everyone on Earth in other words!), and, not being able to participate or understand anything in the mass would probably have meant I would not have become Catholic…there is nothing magical about Latin people.

I am not writing to invalidate your experience. I’m sure it is valid for you.

However, I was mostly raised in an evangelical/fundamentalist Baptist church, which was anti-Catholic by the way, and my first mass was a TLM. Even though I didn’t understand the Latin, I understood the reverence and that was enough to humble me and show me a glimpse into heaven.

 

[PaulinVA]

Better to keep the Summorum Pontificum under wraps huh ?

Summorum Pontificum was released in 2007, wasn’t it? It wasn’t in play 10-12 years ago.

I am not anti-tradition. I remember altar rails and wish they would be brought back, because kneeling at the railing and receiving on the tongue is how I was taught to receive. I am deeply saddened by what I observe in my parish and other parishes. There are also some things that give me hope. I am praying for revival. I hope that the new translation of the Roman Missal will start that revival.

I am simply looking at the situation as it played out.

 

[archangel04]

Perfect example of what the OP is talking about. I see you running around the TC forum posting the exact same sentiment in numerous threads.

I agree! As I’ve mentioned before you have people who are comming in to the EF. New generations without the bitterness of some in the old, but you just can’t escape the few people who just dislike anything that may be traditional.

What I’ve notice more is harsh word comming from those who just dislike even the mentioning of Latin towards me. They ask me, “do you know Latin”? I respond with “no, but I also didn’t know English/Spanish when my mom would bring me to mass as an infant, nor did I know how to pray until I could speak”. “That mass is for old people, you need to stick to the mass that is relevant to your age”, and I’ve been told other stuff as well. Amazingly I’ve yet to meet anyone in person who openly dislikes or disagrees with the OF. So my question is why the hostility? Especially to the younger generations who are swithing over to more traditional practices?

 

[zab]

I agree! As I’ve mentioned before you have people who are comming in to the EF. New generations without the bitterness of some in the old, but you just can’t escape the few people who just dislike anything that may be traditional.

What I’ve notice more is harsh word comming from those who just dislike even the mentioning of Latin towards me. They ask me, “do you know Latin”? I respond with “no, but I also didn’t know English/Spanish when my mom would bring me to mass as an infant, nor did I know how to pray until I could speak”. “That mass is for old people, you need to stick to the mass that is relevant to your age”, and I’ve been told other stuff as well. Amazingly I’ve yet to meet anyone in person who openly dislikes or disagrees with the OF. So my question is why the hostility? Especially to the younger generations who are swithing over to more traditional practices?

Does “on my own” mean that you do whatever you want? I’m just trying to understand what you mean.