They Just Don't Get It

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

It seems that many an atheist, agnostic, and other non-Catholics just don’t get the faith. I think the reason is that they come to it from the wrong angle. They want to see the philosophical proofs and empirical evidence - all pointing to a fundamental lack of trust. They want to have documented lists of dogmatic decrees and dos and don’ts; what’s the bare minimum I must do to be Christian is a common question. But:

Christianity, then, is not primarily a series of propositions or rites, but life: a new life to be lived in Christ. The Lord Jesus did not say that He had come to bring us a creed, a doctrine, or a liturgy; He did say that He came to bring us life, abundant life: the new life of the Resurrections, the vibrant life of the Kingdom of God. Our Church does not simply propose a creed and celebrate a liturgy; it affirms a tradition of living a particular way of life (Light for Life, vol. 3, pg. 2)

The Christian’s spiritual life (life in the Spirit) is intimately connected with the Church’s faith and worship. While we may consider them separately, we must know that they are essentially related, simply different aspects of the same reality. “Theology” for the Christian is not an abstract knowledge of the truth, but a knowledge flowing from a living experience of God, not from thought of Him or any logical consequences derived from intellectual analysis. Christianity does not see truth as primarily an intellectual reality deduced rationally, but as something experienced with the “eyes of the Spirit”. Theology that does not flow from and/or lead to a deep union with God is merely speculation and may be dangerous and harmful. (Light for Life, vol. 3, pg. 1)

That is why they just don’t get it. They do not yet know that they must experience faith and God and not just analyze it like some philosophical construct or scientific theorem.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Hello,

It seems that many an atheist, agnostic, and other non-Catholics just don’t get the faith. I think the reason is that they come to it from the wrong angle. They want to see the philosophical proofs and empirical evidence - all pointing to a fundamental lack of trust. They want to have documented lists of dogmatic decrees and dos and don’ts; what’s the bare minimum I must do to be Christian is a common question. But:

That is why they just don’t get it. They do not yet know that they must experience faith and God and not just analyze it like some philosophical construct or scientific theorem.

While that may be true and I may agree with you, it is not a very persuasive argument.

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

Hello,

It seems that many an atheist, agnostic, and other non-Catholics just don’t get the faith. I think the reason is that they come to it from the wrong angle. They want to see the philosophical proofs and empirical evidence - all pointing to a fundamental lack of trust. They want to have documented lists of dogmatic decrees and dos and don’ts; what’s the bare minimum I must do to be Christian is a common question. But:

That is why they just don’t get it. They do not yet know that they must experience faith and God and not just analyze it like some philosophical construct or scientific theorem.

So, you’ve basically managed to say that anyone operating outside the realm of the Catholic church “just doesn’t get it”.

I’d love to tell that to those who survived persecution in the underground churches. “Sorry, but the incredible things that you witnessed and experienced don’t count. In spite of the fact that you literally led a life of constant prayer and reflection in the total absence of any established church, it’s not enough as the catechism.”

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

Actually, I pretty much agree with the quote with regard to what Christianity is. My reason for being outside the Catholic Church isn’t that I’m not pursuing a vibrant life of faith and relationship with God, but that I don’t agree with the exact set of “creed, doctrine, and liturgy” of the Catholic Church…which as you said isn’t really the point anyway

 

[JMJ_coder]

While that may be true and I may agree with you, it is not a very persuasive argument.

It’s not meant to persuade them on anything other than maybe - hey, you may want to rethink how you approach your investigation of the Church.

 

[JMJ_coder]

So, you’ve basically managed to say that anyone operating outside the realm of the Catholic church “just doesn’t get it”.

I’d love to tell that to those who survived persecution in the underground churches. “Sorry, but the incredible things that you witnessed and experienced don’t count. In spite of the fact that you literally led a life of constant prayer and reflection in the total absence of any established church, it’s not enough as the catechism.”

huh?

 

[JMJ_coder]

I don’t agree with the exact set of “creed, doctrine, and liturgy” of the Catholic Church…which as you said isn’t really the point anyway

That’s not what I said. I don’t subscribe to the heresy of relativism. What I quoted stated that proposing philosophical propositions and such are not the primary purpose of the Church, not that they don’t matter or are unimportant.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

That’s not what I said. I don’t subscribe to the heresy of relativism. What I quoted stated that proposing philosophical propositions and such are not the primary purpose of the Church, not that they don’t matter or are unimportant.

Yes, yes, but it underlines the faulty premise here. You observe all these posts about proofs and discussions of doctrine and dogma and assume that proofs and doctrine is all non-Catholics consider or care about. If you want to see what non-Catholics think about experiencing faith and God, an internet debate forum isn’t the place to find it (you’ll note that here the posts from Catholics are dominated with intellectual issues, doctrine, etc., because that just happens to be the forum’s main focus). Try coming to my church on Sunday, or following our members around during the week. Even if you believe that the RCC is the One True Church, you can’t deny that God is working a living faith in the lives of many people outside the Catholic Church.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Even if you believe that the RCC is the One True Church, you can’t deny that God is working a living faith in the lives of many people outside the Catholic Church.

Yes, and calling them to enter the fullness of truth, the Catholic Church.

I will say that there are many non-Catholics who do much more with their relationship with Christ than many Catholics who should have such a stronger relationship with Christ. And that is commendable.

 

[RobHom]

I think some who responded missed the point of your original post. I agree with your point…and the point of the post.

Too many people look at the Catholic Church and have preconceived notions or create notions based on insufficient or erroneous information.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

I think some who responded missed the point of your original post. I agree with your point…and the point of the post.

Too many people look at the Catholic Church and have preconceived notions or create notions based on insufficient or erroneous information.

As opposed to Catholics having no preconceived notions or notions based on insufficent/erroneous information when it comes to Protestants?

If you’re saying “if you only saw things my way, you’d agree with me”, of course that’s a statement I’d agree with. It’s basically a tautology.

 

[reen12]

As opposed to Catholics having no preconceived notions or notions based on insufficent/erroneous information when it comes to Protestants?

Was about to reply with a similar observation.

reen12

 

[Mirdath]

That is why they just don’t get it. They do not yet know that they must experience faith and God and not just analyze it like some philosophical construct or scientific theorem.

Have you considered that maybe a lot of us do ‘get it’ but have not had such experiences as you think necessary in order to have faith?

Without revelation, reason and empiricism are all that’s left. So we put religion through the wringer of analysis and, not being too amenable to mere rational inquiry, it comes out much the worse for wear. Yes, reason is the wrong tool for the job, but it’s all some of us have.

Let me but put my fingers through his hands, let me have that experience – is that too much to ask, if you want me to have faith? I am only human. I cannot make God help me, if help it is; that’s up to it. And so far, your God speaks to me just as much as Baal spoke to his priests when Elijah challenged them.

 

[Calliope]

Have you considered that maybe a lot of us do ‘get it’ but have not had such experiences as you think necessary in order to have faith?

I understand what you are saying. Faith is said to be a gift. That was repeated over and over to me growing up, but some don’t “get” the gift. That is, they truly don’t “get” it.

Here, many people seem to always fault a non-Catholic for rejecting the faith, forgetting that maybe they haven’t been given the gift of faith. It’s sort of a “there but for the grace of God go I” situation.

Also, this same statement can be applied to many experiences and faith. Most of these things have a very important experiential level, just studying them from a book or hearing others talk about it isn’t enough, a person needs to do them, to understand them.

I have been puzzled by some of the practices of other faiths, but when I accepted an invitation of a friend to participate with them, suddenly the practice made sense. Only by doing it did I “get” it.

Calliope

 

[KingAlfred]

Hello,

It seems that many an atheist, agnostic, and other non-Catholics just don’t get the faith. I think the reason is that they come to it from the wrong angle. They want to see the philosophical proofs and empirical evidence - all pointing to a fundamental lack of trust. They want to have documented lists of dogmatic decrees and dos and don’ts; what’s the bare minimum I must do to be Christian is a common question.

That is why they just don’t get it. They do not yet know that they must experience faith and God and not just analyze it like some philosophical construct or scientific theorem.

I don’t mind it when their disbelief is limited to intellectual disagreement. I mind it greatly when they act upon this disagreement, and verbally attack our faith, discriminating against its followers. This is the situation I face at work, thanks to a predominance of radical atheists.

 

[Nickkname]

Have you considered that maybe a lot of us do ‘get it’ but have not had such experiences as you think necessary in order to have faith?

Without revelation, reason and empiricism are all that’s left. So we put religion through the wringer of analysis and, not being too amenable to mere rational inquiry, it comes out much the worse for wear. Yes, reason is the wrong tool for the job, but it’s all some of us have.

Let me but put my fingers through his hands, let me have that experience – is that too much to ask, if you want me to have faith? I am only human. I cannot make God help me, if help it is; that’s up to it. And so far, your God speaks to me just as much as Baal spoke to his priests when Elijah challenged them.

There’s also science

If you want God to speak to you, than you must read the Word of God with an open heart.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Have you considered that maybe a lot of us do ‘get it’ but have not had such experiences as you think necessary in order to have faith?

Without revelation, reason and empiricism are all that’s left. So we put religion through the wringer of analysis and, not being too amenable to mere rational inquiry, it comes out much the worse for wear. Yes, reason is the wrong tool for the job, but it’s all some of us have.

Let me but put my fingers through his hands, let me have that experience – is that too much to ask, if you want me to have faith? I am only human. I cannot make God help me, if help it is; that’s up to it. And so far, your God speaks to me just as much as Baal spoke to his priests when Elijah challenged them.

In the Liturgy we experience the divine realities, where we participate in the mystery of salvation.

 

[Mirdath]

There’s also science

Science is rigorous empiricism.

If you want God to speak to you, than you must read the Word of God with an open heart.

Tried it.

JMJ_coder:

In the Liturgy we experience the divine realities, where we participate in the mystery of salvation.

So you say; in the liturgy I see a bunch of people lining up for flatbread and wine over which some words have been said.

When trying to explain color to the blind, do you blame the blind for any difficulty in understanding? That’s what you’re doing here.

 

[JonNC]

As opposed to Catholics having no preconceived notions or notions based on insufficent/erroneous information when it comes to Protestants?

If you’re saying “if you only saw things my way, you’d agree with me”, of course that’s a statement I’d agree with. It’s basically a tautology.

Perhaps if we all took a bit more time to “see things each others’ way” we might be surprised what the Holy Spirit could do with that.

Jon

 

[neweyes]

The thread title definitely comes off as arrogant. Especially when this is a place for people to discuss things who are outside of your Catholic church. Whom are you talking to? Your audience is not a third-person “they.”