"Thine is the Kingdom", etc.?

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Qoeleth

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I have a question, which is primarily grammatical. It concerns the embolism of the Lord’s Prayer- “Thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory, now and forever.”

My question is this: why is the verb “is” used, rather than “are”? The subject of the sentence appears to be “Kingdom, Power and Glory”, thus requiring the plural form of the copula “are”.

I can think of twon explanations, neither of which are satisfactory:
  1. “Thine” is the subject (singular) and “is the Kingdom, Power, and the Glory” is the predicate- yet how can “thine” (either a genetive pronoun or a posessive adjective) function as the predicate; OR,
  2. “The Kingdom, the Power and the Glory” are (is?) not understood as several, but as one, meaning a more appropriate punction might be "the Kingdom (i.e., the Power and the Glory).
Looking forward to someone helping me unravel the parsing of this.
 
I read as if “thine” means “yours” so we would say yours is the kingdom, power and glory forever. The same way we would say “yours is the red one, the blue one and the green one.” It’s singular because the subject is singular. That’s how I see it. 🤷 Is that what you’re asking? 🙂
 
Folks,
That’s not part of the Lord’s Prayer! That is the Doxology and the closest thing in scripture to it is David’s Prayer 1 Chronicles 29:11. Protestants think it is part of the Our Father because of Henry VIII and Queen Elizabeth throwing it in and deleting it a bunch of times.

Paddy
 
Where did you get your information? You better have a whole lot of evidence.

Out of the 3 versions of the gospel I have read, all of them contained that prayer just in slightly different words. It is the prayer we are supposed to say after we pray for anything.

Oh sorry, I thought you meant the whole Our Father! SORRY SORRY. lol.

I have always wondered why some take it out.

I personally say it when I pray. It couldn’t do any harm right? it is all true after all… But then again it is a strange reason to have the Lord deliver us from evil unless just recognizing the fact that God does posses those things. Then again, even demons recognize that he possesses those things.

Food for thought though.
 
Folks, that is the doxology and NOT part of the Lord’s Prayer. Ask any priest.
 
I will. I never bothered to. You have also inspired me to do a little research on my own afterward.
 
If I remember rightly the doxology was first found in the Didache.
 
Skye_Ariel said:
I read as if “thine” means “yours” so we would say yours is the kingdom, power and glory forever. The same way we would say “yours is the red one, the blue one and the green one.” It’s singular because the subject is singular. That’s how I see it. 🤷 Is that what you’re asking? 🙂
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But, we would say “The red one, the blue and the green one ARE yours”. Right? So, if the order of the subject and predicate is inverted, should it not be “Yours are the red one, the blue one and the green one.”?

“The red one, the blue one, and the green one”- that should be treated as a plural subject, therefore requiring the plural verb form?

Or would you look at it differently?
 
superamazingman said:
quia tuum est regnum est potestas et gloria in saecula
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Ah, that elucidates things. The ‘tuum’ agrees with the 'regnum (neuter singular).

And the fact that it is ‘regnum EST potestas et gloria’, not ‘regnum et potestas et gloria’ seems to be the key.

So, would this be a more faithful translation-
"Your is the kingdom (which) is the power and the glory.

Or, is another analysis possible?
 
Which is correct:

“Those shoe are yours, those nail are yours, and those bird are yours.”
“This shoe is yours, this nail is yours, and this bird is yours.”

Verbs have to agree with ALL predicated nouns.

Take the SAT and you’ll get a question: “Yours are the nail, fish, and loaf.” or “Yours is the nail, fish, and loaf.” 99% of American test takers say the first is correct and it is always wrong.
 
ob_patrick said:
Which is correct:

“Those shoe are yours, those nail are yours, and those bird are yours.”
“This shoe is yours, this nail is yours, and this bird is yours.”

Verbs have to agree with ALL nouns.

Take the SAT and you’ll get a question: “Yours are the nail, fish, and loaf.” or “Yours is the nail, fish, and loaf.” 99% of American test takers say the first is correct and it is always wrong.
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In this example, doesn’t “the nail, fish and loaf” form a plural noun phrase, which then requires the plural form of the verb?

Which would you think is correct?:
“Tom and Mary is bored”, or
“Tom and Mary are bored.”
 
“For the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory ARE yours, forever and ever.”
“For Thine IS the Kingdom, and the Power and the Glory, forever and ever.”
Don’t conflate the two.
Please remember the “pre” in predicate is operative. Pre birth is always before birth. Pre-conceived notions have to be conceived a-priori. Otherwise, they are not PRE-dicated on something else IN-dicating how they might be DE-dicated for use in the sentence.
 
ob_patrick said:
Which is correct:

“Those shoe are yours, those nail are yours, and those bird are yours.”
“This shoe is yours, this nail is yours, and this bird is yours.”

Verbs have to agree with ALL nouns.

Take the SAT and you’ll get a question: “Yours are the nail, fish, and loaf.” or “Yours is the nail, fish, and loaf.” 99% of American test takers say the first is correct and it is always wrong.
Click to expand...
I’m afraid neither of the first set of sentences are correct. The first is obviously wrong, and the second is a run-on sentence. You cannot separate complete sentences with commas. In any case, the change in form from one sentence to three sentences invalidates the comparison.

If that is the exact question on the SAT, I would have to disagree with their answer.

Purdue would agree with me: owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/599/01/
(see #1, “When the subject of a sentence is composed of two or more nouns or pronouns connected by and, use a plural verb.”

So would Towson: towson.edu/ows/moduleSVAGR.htm
(search for “camper” and read down to, “Although each part of the compound subject is singular (ranger and camper), taken together (joined by and), each one becomes a part of a plural structure and, therefore, must take a plural verb (see) to agree in the sentence.”)

Also the University of Wisconsin: writing.wisc.edu/Handbook/SubjectVerb.html#and
(“Subjects joined by “and” take plural verbs.”)

Those are just the first things that showed up googling subject-verb agreement. The SAT committee is not infallible. But I’d have to see some proof of that exact question being on the test, and that answer being judged correct. The subject of the sentence is the subject of the sentence, regardless of whether it is at the beginning or the end of the sentence. In this case, the word “thine” is describing a condition of the compound subject. It is a predicate adjective if I recall correctly. It is not being equated with the compound subject (partly because a noun can’t be equal to an adjective!) and does not have a number itself. The only possible subject for this sentence is a noun or pronoun, and the only noun in the sentence is the compound noun. Compound noun subjects, as we have seen, take a plural verb.

In any case, the modern Catholic translation is, “The kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours…” isn’t it?

My guess to the OP’s question woud be that they were viewing “kingdom, power, and glory” as a single thing that we need multiple words for because we are human and finite. That doesn’t seem to be upheld by the Latin; however, the rules of grammar for Latin are different than those for English, so a translator may have to choose between fidelity to the original and grammatical correctness in the target language. In addition, that translation may well have been made when the rules of grammar in English were less fixed.

–Jen
 
Jen, you’ll need to refresh your memory on predicated nouns.

Yours is: Kingdom (singular), Power (singular), Glory (singular).

Kingdom, Power, and Glory are PREdicated nouns. “Yours is” is omitted as understood by duplication to avoid comma splices. Also notice the comma there: “Power, and the…” Bob and Mary does not have a comma to indicate plural subject.

Kingdom, Power, and Glory (grouped and no longer PREdicated by the verb) ARE yours…

Predication is ADVANCE indication. Move the verb after and they are no longer predicate nouns.

I didn’t write the rules, I just obey them.

Paddy
 
ob_patrick said:
“For the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory ARE yours, forever and ever.”
“For Thine IS the Kingdom, and the Power and the Glory, forever and ever.”
Don’t conflate the two.
Please remember the “pre” in predicate is operative. Pre birth is always before birth. Pre-conceived notions have to be conceived a-priori. Otherwise, they are not PRE-dicated on something else IN-dicating how they might be DE-dicated for use in the sentence.
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Well, which do you take as the subject and which as the predicate, out of “thine” and “KPG”? I don’t think word order may be used to determine this alone. It seems to me that “thine” CANNOT be the predicate regardless of the word order, given that the predicate needs to be in the nominative (or, in English, subject, case).

BUT, perhaps there is a way around this. Could “thine” possibly be a substantive (with an understood but unstated noun implied), thus making it possible to stand as the subject, thus:
“Thine (stuff) is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory”
 
Done teaching grammar, but interesting point on questioning…

“Yours IS the” such and such CORRECT
“Yours ARE the” such and such WRONG (may “sound” right, but it is not)
Such and such “ARE yours.” CORRECT
Such and such “IS yours.” WRONG

I told you the correct answer. If you don’t believe me, ask an English Teacher. In the same light, “Hopefully” is not standard written English. “It is hoped”… IS! Why? Don’t ask me. I didn’t write the rules. If questioning what “sounds” right, ask a competent authority.

Segueway Question: How many Catholics question what the rules are because it doesn’t “sound” right to them? How many ask a priest instead of a friend?

Paddy
 
Qoeleth said:
I have a question, which is primarily grammatical. It concerns the embolism of the Lord’s Prayer- “Thine is the Kingdom…”
Looking forward to someone helping me unravel the parsing of this.
Click to expand...
Embolism - what protestant website called it an “embolism?!?” A plug? A filler? Something to fill a void?

It’s a Doxology. Look it up. (That and a good grammar book)
 
Qoeleth said:
I can think of two explanations:
  1. “The Kingdom, the Power and the Glory” are (is?) not understood as several, but as one, meaning a more appropriate punction might be "the Kingdom (i.e., the Power and the Glory).
Click to expand...
#2 is correct. It is a poetic expression in which the compound subject (Kingdom, Power, and Glory) is represented as a singular collective.

It works in Greek (q.v. Iliad 16.844-5), is thus singular in the Greek text of Mt 6:13, and most likely crossed over into English from Greek, hence “Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it” (Kipling, ‘If’).
 
ob_patrick said:
Embolism - what protestant website called it an “embolism?!?” A plug? A filler? Something to fill a void?
Click to expand...
“4. In the liturgies of various rites: a prayer occurring after (with partial repetition of) the Lord’s Prayer, and before the Communion” (OED, “embolism”)
 
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