Things are not as they seem

[Robert_Sock]

You’re wasting your time - I already said as much to him.

First the the geocentrists, now this guy - boy, they certainly are some loony Catholics on here

When I first started reading these boards I used to think that they were on here just to stealth troll and that they actually didn’t hold such absurd views - I was wrong!

Sounds like you’re in attack mode instead of being rational. Let us see where we can add insults to the argument.

Look at the way we disagree and tell me our innate nature allows for the cooperation necessary for the world to come to where it is today.

Our innate wit is puny in comparison to what is needed for our world to have come to where it is today!

 

[Robert_Sock]

He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
-John 12:25

 

[Robert_Sock]

The Golden Key to Heaven
by Saint Anthony Mary Claret

The death of the just: Death will reach everyone, the good and the bad; but the destiny of each one is quite different. The just man sees himself in this valley of tears as a prisoner, serving a very hard term. He considers himself a slave in this world, suffering an extremely distressing servitude. He regards himself a sailor caught in a horrible storm. And as death means an end of his confinement, an end of his slavery, and is the port of his salvation, he ceases not to cry with David, “Woe is me that my sojourning is prolonged!. . .” (Ps. 119:5). He ceases not to ask with the Apostle, “. . . Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Rom. 7:24)

 

[John21652]

He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
-John 12:25

You have rendered that quote meaningless by taking it out of context and using it to make it seem that mankinds earthly works are also meaningless. That passage is directing us to treasure what God has to offer us and that it is more valuable than what an earthly life has to offer. However, that does not mean humanity on earth does not glofiry God through the use of his God given free will and intellect. If you wish to hate, literally, your own life, then you can not do so without hating everything in it. people included. That, I suggest, is anathema to Jesus Christ and what He taught. As a matter of fact, I’ll throw back at you Corinthians 10:31, which says Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.. As I have written, when man uses his free will and God given talents for the good of himself and others, then Satan has no say in what goes on. Mankind is using his God given talents to do good works and good deeds and by using his God given faculties, he is giving glory to God. He is glorifying God because he, mankind, was made in the image of the Creator.

Now come out from behind your Bible quotes and pessimistic dogma and show to me that you can see the glory of what mankind is capable of. Or else, I might think your thoughts are being influenced by Satan himself, causing you to to deny and denigrate the achievements and the potential of mankind and thereby denigrating the Creator himself. I await your response. As a matter of fact, if you fail to respond with plausible argument, I might have to say “Begone”, just like in Matthew 4:10.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You have rendered that quote meaningless by taking it out of context and using it to make it seem that mankinds earthly works are also meaningless. That passage is directing us to treasure what God has to offer us and that it is more valuable than what an earthly life has to offer. However, that does not mean humanity on earth does not glofiry God through the use of his God given free will and intellect. If you wish to hate, literally, your own life, then you can not do so without hating everything in it. people included. That, I suggest, is anathema to Jesus Christ and what He taught. As a matter of fact, I’ll throw back at you Corinthians 10:31, which says Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.. As I have written, when man uses his free will and God given talents for the good of himself and others, then Satan has no say in what goes on. Mankind is using his God given talents to do good works and good deeds and by using his God given faculties, he is giving glory to God. He is glorifying God because he, mankind, was made in the image of the Creator.

Now come out from behind your Bible quotes and pessimistic dogma and show to me that you can see the glory of what mankind is capable of. Or else, I might think your thoughts are being influenced by Satan himself, causing you to to deny and denigrate the achievements and the potential of mankind and thereby denigrating the Creator himself. I await your response. As a matter of fact, if you fail to respond with plausible argument, I might have to say “Begone”, just like in Matthew 4:10.

The goal is getting into the upper world of creation, God’s Kingdom. See that this lower world of creation is filled with misery and corruption! Love this life if you must, and don’t forget to smell the flowers, but I have my sights set on the everlasting glory of God’s Kingdom!

 

[Robert_Sock]

If we didn’t have death we’d be in our corrupt bodies for all eternity!

 

[John21652]

The goal is getting into the upper world of creation, God’s Kingdom. See that this lower world of creation is filled with misery and corruption! Love this life if you must, and don’t forget to smell the flowers, but I have my sights set on the everlasting glory of God’s Kingdom!

The goal is to live a good life and to give glory to God. Not to slight God’s creation, which includes mankind. I, for one, do love this life and indeed I smell the flowers. After all, they are part of God’s wondrous creation. It is a clue, perhaps, of what the power of God truly is. What about you, do you hate flowers too?

However, while I am here I will attempt to earn my spot in heaven by using my free will and my intellect for ‘the good’, according to the Natural Law as given by God and written on the hearts of men. How about you? Do you think you will earn a place in Paradise by hating God’s creation? Do you think you will see heaven by denigrating what God has given mankind and made him capable of? You dare state that God’s creation is filled with misery and corruption. You slight the very God you say you believe in. :dts:

Now stop sidestepping and address the points I made in my original response. Or is your mind and soul so corrupted that you lack the courage? C’mon, step up and be counted, else it’s Matthew 4:10 to you.

 

[donsnow]

Aw Don, c’mon man, please make a stand. Gee whiz, even a humble knife, first invented thousands of years ago can be used for evil purposes. It has served mankind well in many different ways, whether skinning hard won game, cutting up food, cutting ropes, shaping wood and in a thousand other ways. However, down through history many thousands of people have been killed and wounded by knife wielding humans. Does that make a knife an instrument of the devil? Absolutely no way! The use of a knife to cause harm is a misuse of the free will of the person so using the knife. The knife is neither moral, nor immoral; it is not and cannot ever be a moral agent. That role, with the ability to choose between good and bad use of a knife, is man’s lot.

So too is the use to which any other technology is put. It is minds free will and his intellect that must decide upon the correct use of whatever technology he has available. That is the way it has been since the dawn of time. A simple tool such as a club can be used to supply food, keep people safe, or used as a weapon to terrorise others. It is man’s choice.

The same argument applies to machine guns, Don. They can be in storage to deter would be enemies, or they can be weapons of aggression. Again, mankind has moral choices to make regarding their use. No doubt, having a superior machine gun to thine enemy might be a very good way of deterring that enemy and so keeping the peace, himself and you, safe. If one owns a superior machine gun, then thank God the superior intellect behind its development is one of your own moral society!!

The argument that because any technology, even a knife or a club, might be used as a weapon, or for some evil purpose, is no reason to blame Satan for its existence. A motor car, even a horse, can be used as a weapon of terror, inflicting harm onto others. neither, I submit, are Satan’s work. To suggest otherwise is to insult the very God that gave mankind free will and an intellect “in his image”. The blame for misuse of technology, no matter how simple or sophisticated, is the direct result of the misuse of free will. Nothing more and nothing less. Blame man and man.

Gee, John21652,

You should know me better than that, by now.

I accept your first two paragraphs as written, as reflecting the truth.

However, I disagree with your handling of the machine gun. That is solely a weapon and an evil weapon at that. An evil intent, designed the machine gun, imho

Your fourth paragraph seems to excuse Satan’s work in human affairs. There is no excuse, as we have been given by our Creator power to resist Satan. You are correct that it is our base natures which commit evil. I am correct that Satan excites those base natures to tempt us. When we forget to love God and to love each other, Satan has won.

I think its just that simple.

God loves you,
Don

 

[John21652]

Gee, John21652,

You should know me better than that, by now.

I do Don, but you were being too diplomatic in not making a stand!

I accept your first two paragraphs as written, as reflecting the truth.

Very reassuring. Thank you.

However, I disagree with your handling of the machine gun. That is solely a weapon and an evil weapon at that. An evil intent, designed the machine gun, imho

Well Don, here I’d impress upon you the need for some research. Let’s begin with the man who invented the Gatling Gun. Dr. Richard Gordon Gatling. A most fascinating man and a marvellous inventor. Now, all you have to do is begin with Wikipedia and there you find what prompted Gatling to set about making a gun that can fire very rapidly. He himself said -

It occurred to me that if I could invent a machine – a gun – which could by its rapidity of fire, enable one man to do as much battle duty as a hundred, that it would, to a large extent supersede the necessity of large armies, and consequently, exposure to battle and disease [would] be greatly diminished.

He had noticed that during the Civil War, more men were dying from disease than from bullet wounds. The war was a fact. Nothing could alter that. However, his intent was to shorten it and to save lives. There’s nothing diabolical about that intent, Don!

In fact, the same intent can be argued for the continued development of even greater weapons of destruction. The United States lead the field, did it not? Yet, apart from the nuclear bombing of two Japanese cities, which most agree actually shortened WW II and saved lives, the fact that the United States had those weapons in its arsenal undoubtedly saved the world a whole lot of grief. Like I said in my response, Don, “…*thank God the superior intellect behind its development is one of your own moral society!!” *.

Your fourth paragraph seems to excuse Satan’s work in human affairs. There is no excuse, as we have been given by our Creator power to resist Satan. You are correct that it is our base natures which commit evil. I am correct that Satan excites those base natures to tempt us. When we forget to love God and to love each other, Satan has won.

No Don, I am not excusing Satan’s work at all. In fact, I will go so far as to say you misread what I wrote. What I was pointing out was the fact that even machines as simple as a car, or even a horse, can be used as weapons if those who own and operate them have evil intent. The same with the possession and use of a knife. The existence of a car, the existence of a horse, or the existence of a knife is not Satan’s work. Cars are a result of mankind’s God given creative talents. So too is a knife. A horse is one of God’s creations. Mankind has used his God given intelligence to harness the existence of a horse for much good in the world. Still, if there is evil intent, a horse can be a weapon! Satan’s work consists of corrupting the free will of human beings and causing them to misuse technology, or anything else that falls to hand, with evil intent. The fact is, evil intent is a very real aspect of humanities existence. God has given us the power to freely reject evil. Most do, some do not.

I think its just that simple.

So do I.

I’m still waiting for our OP to address my responses to his assertions that technology and machines exist as the result of diabolical influences.

It seems he has “begone”.

 

[Robert_Sock]

NATURAL IMPULSE
THE good impulse (yetser tov) and the evil impulse (yetser ra) are pictured in Jewish literature as wrestling in perpetual conflict within the heart of man. Satan is usually identified with the yetser ha-ra, the evil impulse. In the book of Job, Satan’s function is described as that of testing the sincerity of men’s characters. In Talmudic literature, Satan’s function is to strengthen man’s moral sense by leading him into temptation. It has been said that every man living shall assuredly meet with an hour of temptation, a certain critical hour, which shall more especially try his mettle.

According to a midrashic statement (Genesis Rabbah 9:9), the existence of the yetser ha-ra in the heart of man and the struggle to overcome it lends high value to the good that emerges from the inner battle. The two conflicting impulses, the good and bad tendencies, are said to be implanted in man as a consequence of his having been formed from the dust and endowed with a soul (Genesis 2:7).

According to rabbinic thinking, the evil impulse is to be found in man at birth; the good impulse begins to develop when he is thirteen years old. The teachings of the Torah are referred to as the antidote to the yetser ha-ra. Similarly, Ben Sira (21:11) states: “The man who keeps the Law controls his natural tendency.”

In commenting on the two yods in the word " ", (Genesis 2:7), the rabbis declare that God created both the yetser tov and the yetser ra (Berakhoth 61a). The command to love God “with all your heart” they interpret to mean “with both your impulses” (Berakhoth Ma), since both human elements can be employed in the service of God. “Were it not for the yetser ha-ra, no man would build a home or get married or follow an occupation” (Genesis Rabbah 9:9). The phrase “very good” (Genesis 1:31) is therefore explained, as alluding to the yetser ha-ra, frequently used in the sense of the productive urge.

Taken from the Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts

Genesis 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

 

[Robert_Sock]

John,
The above is my conception of Satan from a Jewish perspective. Note that I never alluded to the term “diabolical” but this is a term you assumed.

I’m still waiting for an honest response from you on how many people you know who can develop an efficient means of manufacturing boxes of toothpicks. This means designing and building a machine that can produce toothpicks at the rate necessary for mass production.

 

[donsnow]

I do Don, but you were being too diplomatic in not making a stand!

Very reassuring. Thank you.
Well Don, here I’d impress upon you the need for some research. Let’s begin with the man who invented the Gatling Gun. Dr. Richard Gordon Gatling. A most fascinating man and a marvellous inventor. Now, all you have to do is begin with Wikipedia and there you find what prompted Gatling to set about making a gun that can fire very rapidly. He himself said -
He had noticed that during the Civil War, more men were dying from disease than from bullet wounds. The war was a fact. Nothing could alter that. However, his intent was to shorten it and to save lives. There’s nothing diabolical about that intent, Don!

In fact, the same intent can be argued for the continued development of even greater weapons of destruction. The United States lead the field, did it not? Yet, apart from the nuclear bombing of two Japanese cities, which most agree actually shortened WW II and saved lives, the fact that the United States had those weapons in its arsenal undoubtedly saved the world a whole lot of grief. Like I said in my response, Don, “…*thank God the superior intellect behind its development is one of your own moral society!!” *.

No Don, I am not excusing Satan’s work at all. In fact, I will go so far as to say you misread what I wrote. What I was pointing out was the fact that even machines as simple as a car, or even a horse, can be used as weapons if those who own and operate them have evil intent. The same with the possession and use of a knife. The existence of a car, the existence of a horse, or the existence of a knife is not Satan’s work. Cars are a result of mankind’s God given creative talents. So too is a knife. A horse is one of God’s creations. Mankind has used his God given intelligence to harness the existence of a horse for much good in the world. Still, if there is evil intent, a horse can be a weapon! Satan’s work consists of corrupting the free will of human beings and causing them to misuse technology, or anything else that falls to hand, with evil intent. The fact is, evil intent is a very real aspect of humanities existence. God has given us the power to freely reject evil. Most do, some do not.

So do I.

I’m still waiting for our OP to address my responses to his assertions that technology and machines exist as the result of diabolical influences.

It seems he has “begone”.

Well, John,

Imho, Dr. Gatling invented an evil weapon with which to attempt a good result, because the Commandment is plain and simple: thou shalt not kill. All the rationalizations you brought up I would deem as satanic distractors. The doctor should have kept to the field hospitals and not added more evil to war. Since WWI, thanks to Dr. Gatling, troops passed from being cannon fodder to being machine gun fodder. I know. Part of our Infantry Training Regiment (same as Army’s AIT) was advancing spread out into machine gun emplacements. Less Marines killed, that way. But, when I was in, we did not have the “How many acceptable casualties?” viewpoint of the present Chiefs of Staff. It was, “as many casualties as necessary to take the hill.” So, the military has changed a lot, since I was in.
John, machine guns are evil machines introduced by a misled goodwill.

We did evil to Japan, to end the war. Please, don’t call evil good just because the grace of God can bring a good result from human evil.

In closing this reply to your post, I’m afraid we no longer have a moral society. Imho, that has changed since my day, too.

God loves you,
Don

 

[John21652]

John,
The above is my conception of Satan from a Jewish perspective. Note that I never alluded to the term “diabolical” but this is a term you assumed.

Why someone who passes themselves off as a Catholic needs to refer to a jewish understanding of Satan is beyone me. Maybe you can explain what is wrong with the Christian concept and why you bypass it.

You did indeed allude to “diabolical”.
Here’s the dictionary definition of diabolical -

di·a·bol·i·cal (dhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/imacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif-bhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/obreve.giflhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif-khttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifl) also di·a·bol·ic (-http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifk)*adj.***1. ** Of, concerning, or characteristic of the devil; satanic.
**2. ** Appropriate to a devil, especially in degree of wickedness or cruelty.

[From Middle English deabolik, from Old French diabolique, from Late Latin diabolicus, from Latin diabolus, *devil

; see ** devil**.]
You have been referencing technology and machines as being diabolically influenced, hence my, correct, use of the adjective.

Next, you ask me to answer this, honestly -

I’m still waiting for an honest response from you on how many people you know who can develop an efficient means of manufacturing boxes of toothpicks. This means designing and building a machine that can produce toothpicks at the rate necessary for mass production.

However, in post #34 you wrote this -

How many people do you know who have the innate wit to efficiently manufacture a simple box of toothpicks in a reasonable amount of time? Come on, the answer is NONE!

Note the difference between your two posts. In answer to your first query, I said I could manufacture a simple box of toothpicks in a reasonable amount of time. However, you can’t accept that, so you have come back and added a ryder, which is that someone must now design and build a machine *"…that can produce toothpicks at the rate necessary for mass production". * You have deliberately moved the goal posts because you are not satisfied with my answer.

I also went to great lengths to explain how mankind, particularly in a modern economic system has learnt to specialise. That some people design machines and others build them and yet still others operate them. You, however, now want someone who can do it all. Your basic premise is that no human has the wit to do this. My response is that you are wrong and that despite the specialisation of humans into specific categories of work, we all do have the wit to do as you ask. However, please do allow some little time for training!

In post 34, you also wrote this in response to my suggestions that mankind has the wit and the intelligence, given by God, to create technology -

Much of what you speak about above is a product of Satan and the evil impulse within humans!

If what I write of is a product of Satan, as you state, then it is diabolical and you have alluded to that. However, I contend that anything man makes, builds, produces, harnesses, invents, is all a result of the God given intelligence he possesses. My second point is that how mankind chooses to use those built, produced, harnessed and invented technologies depends entirely on the use of free will. A simple knife can be used for harm, or a tire lever, or even a horse, which as I pointed out is a creation of God. Technology and machines are not the problem, man’s use of his free will can be.

You will recall that I wrote how mankind, using his God given powers of cooperation and goodwill, can transfer knowledge, again using the written word printed on paper for the udecation of others. I mentioned how that’s how you know to use a tire lever on tires and not for banging someone on the head with that simple tool!

Well, just for you, I hereby pass on, using the amazing technology called the Internet, the knowledge of how to make a toothpick making machine. Click the link and read for yourself this wondrous document, called Transfer of Technology Model - Toothpick Manufacturing Unit.

Now you will be able to develop your own wit and use it for the benefit of others!!

Let me know how you get on.

 

[Robert_Sock]

So, does anybody have the innate wit to efficiently mass produce simple boxes of toothpick? Where does this technology come from?

 

[donsnow]

So, does anybody have the innate wit to efficiently mass produce simple boxes of toothpick? Where does this technology come from?

Hi, Robert,

I honestly don’t know where making matches technology comes from. However, it’s my personal experience that I just as often use a twig I pick up from the ground to pick my teeth; as well as any other handy small object, when I’m in the house. I just don’t buy tooth picks that often, and a box lasts me for months on end, when I do. Because of the aforementioned habit of using anything handy.

God loves you,
Don

 

[balt_orioles54]

Compare this last figure to there being more than 6,000,000,000 (six billion) people living in the world today. And to think that all the necessary analysis and planning can be accomplished through government think tanks, without the guidance and influence of God, is absurd!

Very good essay making one also think about how the herd mentality of humans is easily persuaded. Which fits with the evidence from the quiet yet solid population research institute associated with Christendom Univ. in Virginia (in that it is influenced by God, the holy spirit - a Catholic "think tank.). No way the world’s population fits in Texas! overpopulationisamyth.com/overpopulation-the-making-of-a-myth :hey_bud::ballspin:

 

[balt_orioles54]

My contention is that all true science and technology comes from another world. Have a close listen to the following passage of scripture:
Ecclesiastes 1:2 – 11: Vanity of vanities! All is vanity. What advantage does man have in all his work which he does under the sun? . . . That which has been is that which will be, and that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one might say, “See this, it is new”? Already it has existed for ages which were before us. There is no remembrance of earlier things, and also of the later things which will occur; there will be for them no remembrance among those who will come later still.

I’ve read this passage before and thought the same. It is complete genius. The vanity of man/woman thinks everything he/she’s done up to now has never been done. Over the course of even 100,000 years of civilization could have been more advanced than we are now and the utter destruction of the earth could have taken place destroying that civilization from the face of the earth - and rebuilding it led us to where we are now, maybe 500 years behind (in technology) of the last civilization. Maybe the last civilization didn’t consider the “time capsule” saving stuff to show future generations in case another utter earth’s destruction event. This time we have the capsules, but will they stay intact - depending on the trauma of the earth’s destruction, if one should occur again. Genius, this passage.