Things are out of control

[st_ignatius110]

I think I actually agree with this.

I’m shocked!! hehe…just kidding!

When they entered into marriage, God made the two flesh one. They cannot be seperated. When God has joined two together, they are joined, whether one of them believes it or not. Therefore, I would say that both parties are obligated to fulfill their union as God intended it. Simply because one party has suddenly decided that God needs no place in the union, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It has to be lived out

Agreed.

That being said, if it turns out the fellow didn’t simply suddenly decide, but had always had the idea that God had no place in things, that’s a little different, and perhaps the union never really existed, in which case their is no binding.

I cannot really comment, I would not want to say if a marriage is binding or not. I think many things would have to be considered. Such as the fact that it could have been known before they were married that God had no place in his life, but they were both serious and took there vows seriously. I don’t know this exact situation but I think many things would have to be investigated before a judgement is made…which of course the Church would do.

 

[st_ignatius110]

I also agree that it would be terrible to bring a child into this situation.

I don’t think it is right to make this statement. For example, if this husband were willing to practice NFP and the wife got pregnant anyway, is that not the will of God? Who knows but that being a father might help this man change. We never know how God will use these things. Now, my advice is not to get pregnant…I for sure think NFP should be used until the situation is under control…but if God blesses this couple with a child…that is not terrible.

 

[YinYangMom]

st_ignatius110:

I personally am not to sure about this one! If the husband is abusing her sexually, then I would say I dont think she is obligated. But if he is not, then she should give herself to him. She can begin to show him what true love is and what a true marriage is.

What comes to mind is the Fall…
as Christopher West comments - why did Eve cover herself?
Because she felt the lust in Adam’s look and she instinctively knew to protect her dignity.

For me, that means, marriage is not a ‘free’ card for relations.
Love (and since God is love, God as well) must be present otherwise it’s just lust. And you know what? We women still instinctually sense when the desire of the man is self-centered rather than love-giving.

Yes, while they’re married she can show him what true love is by holding to the standards of the Church and her dignity as a woman of God. There are more ways than giving in to sex to do so.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Say two Catholics get married. 10 years down the road, the wife decides she’s an atheist. Does the husband have the right to withold relations from her? I don’t think the Church would say yes, though I’m not sure.

 

[st_ignatius110]

QUOTE]What comes to mind is the Fall…
as Christopher West comments - why did Eve cover herself?
Because she felt the lust in Adam’s look and she instinctively knew to protect her dignity.

So since Adam was lustful I guess Eve should have withheld relations? (Which, by the way, she did not do since after the fall " he knew her")

For me, that means, marriage is not a ‘free’ card for relations.
Love (and since God is love, God as well) must be present otherwise it’s just lust. And you know what? We women still instinctually sense when the desire of the man is self-centered rather than love-giving.

Yes, while they’re married she can show him what true love is by holding to the standards of the Church and her dignity as a woman of God. There are more ways than giving in to sex to do so

If a person is open to life it is not lust. It cannot be lust. Like I said previously, I don’t know all the particulars in this situation. What I do know is that even an unbeleiver can be lust free in his/her marriage. Even if there is lust involved…he must at least love her or he would not have married her. If she withholds herself out of anger, it will anger him and he will not care to let her be a witness of God’s grace to him. If instead, she is a good Christian woman, and offers up her sufferings to our Lord Jesus Christ, most likely, this man will be saved. He will see what True Love is. And it will be expressed to him by his wife, the one who promised to stand by him forever.

 

[st_ignatius110]

Say two Catholics get married. 10 years down the road, the wife decides she’s an atheist. Does the husband have the right to withold relations from her? I don’t think the Church would say yes, though I’m not sure.

Why should he? You are right, I don’t think the Church would say yes. Their marriage is valid…etc. Just because one does not beleive in God does not mean one should not have sex with your own husband/wife. They are still married by God.

 

[dulcissima]

St Ignatius and Lazerlike, you may not have seen the other threads started by this OP over the last couple of months. In a nutshell, she found out about his porn problem after they were married. She asked him to stop. He refused, saying he did what he wanted before he got married and he will do what he wants now. She has attended some counseling sessions but can’t afford to continue. Evidently he won’t go to counseling. He also won’t pay for her to continue and holds money and the fact that it is HIS house over her head continuously. From the little bit that we know, I think it would be reasonable to question his intentions at the time that he made his vows. Of course, it would be up to the Church to investigate any such claim.

 

[Lazerlike42]

dulcissima:

St Ignatius and Lazerlike, you may not have seen the other threads started by this OP over the last couple of months. In a nutshell, she found out about his porn problem after they were married. She asked him to stop. He refused, saying he did what he wanted before he got married and he will do what he wants now. She has attended some counseling sessions but can’t afford to continue. Evidently he won’t go to counseling. He also won’t pay for her to continue and holds money and the fact that it is HIS house over her head continuously. From the little bit that we know, I think it would be reasonable to question his intentions at the time that he made his vows. Of course, it would be up to the Church to investigate any such claim.

Oh I am very open to the idea that he may not have had the appropriate intentions for a valid marriage. I would encourage the investigation of it.

 

[st_ignatius110]

St Ignatius and Lazerlike, you may not have seen the other threads started by this OP over the last couple of months. In a nutshell, she found out about his porn problem after they were married. She asked him to stop. He refused, saying he did what he wanted before he got married and he will do what he wants now. She has attended some counseling sessions but can’t afford to continue. Evidently he won’t go to counseling. He also won’t pay for her to continue and holds money and the fact that it is HIS house over her head continuously. From the little bit that we know, I think it would be reasonable to question his intentions at the time that he made his vows. Of course, it would be up to the Church to investigate any such claim.

I kind of assumed all of that from this thread, although I had not read another thread. Thank you for making sure I know the details BEFORE I go on…lol.

However, I still hold to what I have said. Particularly because she has already spoke to an orthodox monsignor who has said she does not have grounds for an anullment. Just because her husband has done these things and continues to do so does not mean she can just get an anullment. It does not mean she should withold sex from him.

Please note, my thoughts and prayers are with seminole girl. I do not want in any way whatsoever to seem uncaring. I would hate to be in this situation…it has to be really really difficult and frustrating trying to figure out what to do. All I know is that 5 months is not enough time to “save ones marriage.”

Edit: I would also agree with Lazerlife that if she can, an investigation would not hurt anything.

 

[YinYangMom]

st_ignatius110:

So since Adam was lustful I guess Eve should have withheld relations? (Which, by the way, she did not do since after the fall " he knew her")

We don’t know that he ‘knew her’ whenever he wanted her…
it’s quite possible she maintained her dignity and they united mutually, not one giving in to the other…

If a person is open to life it is not lust. It cannot be lust. Like I said previously, I don’t know all the particulars in this situation. What I do know is that even an unbeleiver can be lust free in his/her marriage. Even if there is lust involved…he must at least love her or he would not have married her. If she withholds herself out of anger, it will anger him and he will not care to let her be a witness of God’s grace to him. If instead, she is a good Christian woman, and offers up her sufferings to our Lord Jesus Christ, most likely, this man will be saved. He will see what True Love is. And it will be expressed to him by his wife, the one who promised to stand by him forever.

She wouldn’t be withholding herself out of anger, it would be out of maintaining her honor and dignity.

People can and do marry out of lust with no love…they just don’t know the difference. It comes up later on in the marriage when the ‘sparks die’ and then they get divorced.

As for offering up sufferings…better to offer up the suffering of not feeling the loving embrace of a loving husband than giving up the ‘suffering’ of having sex with someone who has no respect for her.

 

[SeminoleGirl22]

Drinking (excessively like alcoholic) and gambling… NO. sometimes i would wish though, to give me an easy way out of this nightmare. ill list some of the things he does:

he shaved his head. i mean with no clip on the clippers. he used to have such great hair, and now its GONE. he says “i just felt like it” the no sex thing isnt a problem all that much for me anymore. i am so repulsed by the fact he looks like a skinhead. i asked him to let it grow in…he wont.

hes taken going to the gym to a new extreme. 6 days a week, hired a personal trainer, and is doing “body for life” by Bill Phillips diet. now if i wanted to marry a model, i could have. i dated a guy before him that modeled. but he seems to think that his new physique should be really appealing for me, but id rather him just be home and at least listen to me. ALSO, he is now shaving or waxing his body hair. basically, he is a hairless all over. “it helps my muscles stand out…” is the reply. YUCK YUCK!!! it looks so unnatural. he doesnt care.

he listens to music that i absolutely positively dont approve of. his new favorite band is “Disturbed”. i asked him “just not in the house…, just dont blemish my home with such sin.” what do i come home to while hes working? “Down with the sickness” playing in the DVD stereo. and hes got tickets to some bands concerts that are just as bad.

i told you about the party thing.

-he went to his friends birthday party, who hired a stripper.
-he goes with his friends to a local bar that has “Girl on Girl Friday” to watch college girls kiss each other for free drinks.
-he invites friends over that i dont approve of, and they play xbox and playstation in the basement, violent and just bad video games.
-he is designated driver sometimes, and will go out with some freinds who just want to pick up girls to “hookup”. so he facilitates premarital sex.
-he no longer sleeps in our room. he stays in the basement on the pull out couch and his computer and home entertainment center.
-he now has this new attitude and chip in his shoulder because hes now “hot stuff”, or so he acts, with the “Im down to 10% body fat”. if we do go somewhere, inevitably girls do tend to look at him, and he eats it up. its disgusting. hes just got this cocky smile on his face all the time now.

he is methodist, and still goes to church. when we were engaged and dating, we always comprimised on music we were listenting to, places we went, things we watched. now he tells me that im so “uptight” about everything, and to “relax, were married now”. i knew he was a little rough around the edges back then, but i figured pretty much anyone had their flaws.

and the killer is, i gave him “say what is really on your mind Friday” and asked him some questions, just to hear the truth:

Q:why doest not having sex with me NOT bother you so badly like it does me?
A: because you are terrible in bed. im not missing anything spectacular

Q:why do you not respect my views on MB and sex
A: because they are from the 1940’s and i live in the present

Q: why did you respect my views back then on not having sex before marriage?
A: because i could take care of it myself without having to worry about a self-righteous wife trying to tell me what is and isnt wrong

Q: why wont you listen to me, i mean really listen about the way i feel?
A: i do listen, but i stop listening when you get emotional and crying because its just plain irrational and irritating.

i am so sorry i ever let him speak his mind. as if things werent bad enough about his problem without me knowing now that he thinks i am bad sexually.

 

[Lazerlike42]

YinYangMom:

We don’t know that he ‘knew her’ whenever he wanted her…
it’s quite possible she maintained her dignity and they united mutually, not one giving in to the other…

1Co 7:3 A husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise a wife to her husband.
1Co 7:4 A wife does not have authority over her own body, but her husband does. Equally, a husband does not have authority over his own body, but his wife does.
1Co 7:5 Do not deprive one another–except when you agree, for a time, to devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again; otherwise, Satan may tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

1 Co 7:10 I command the married–not I, but the Lord–a wife is not to leave her husband.
1Co 7:11 But if she does leave, she must remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband–and a husband is not to leave his wife.
1Co 7:12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has an unbelieving wife, and she is willing to live with him, he must not leave her.
1Co 7:13 Also, if any woman has an unbelieving husband, and he is willing to live with her, she must not leave her husband.
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the Christian husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
1Co 7:15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let him leave. A brother or a sister is not bound in such cases. God has called you to peace.
1Co 7:16 For you, wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Or you, husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?
1Co 7:17 However, each one must live his life in the situation the Lord assigned when God called him. This is what I command in all the churches.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Who is the one that isn’t having sex? Is it you or is it your husband?

 

[Lazerlike42]

Maybe I’m wrong here, and if I am, I’m very sorry. Others will chime in on it too after I post this obviously.

I think that one thing that could really help is to try to figure out what things you really should give him a hard time about and what you shouldn’t. In other words, looking at that list, I saw two categories of things: those things that he was absolutely doing wrong and you should without a doubt have a problem with, and those things which he might have a right to in some sense of the word.

For instance… if he wants to shave his head, or waz his chest, or whatever… I know it may be something you find gross, but if he really wants to do that I don’t think it’s something you ought to be voicing to him all the time. True, he should respect you and your opinions. If you liked his hair, you should absolutely be able to voice that opinion, and he should respect it. However, his opinion matters too. If he wants to have his head shaved, you have to respect him too in that way. It can’t be an absolute. Any time you expect something one particular way and he another, there is respect to be had on each side. If you insist that he not shave his head, you’re not respecting him any more than he is when he tells you he insists that he does shave it.

Same thing with his friends that you don’t approve of. I think there needs to be some sort of respect there. Just because you don’t approve, that doesn’t mean that matter of factly he should just stop having them over altogether. That’s not respect either.

The reason that I bring this up is because, for one thing, as the fellow on EWTN’s program “Carpenter Shop” says, it takes two people to disagree. He said that it is virtually impossible for a marriage to have problems that are caused by exclusively one party. It can happen, and this may be one such case, but it is not common.

Where I am going with this is that if you layed off on worrying about the hair, or some of those things, he might respond better to the more important things. It may seem to him that you are just nagging about everything. I am not saying you are by any means. What I am saying is that he may not show any respect to you at all because he feels like nothing will be good enough because you want to control his entire life or something. Again, I am not saying that’s what you want. What I mean is that when you say something about the hair, it may come across to him as, “gosh I can’t even have my own hair the way I want it without her saying something?” If you let him have some of these other things that don’t matter or that he even has a right to, then it may be a lot easier for him to compromise or to work through the problems on the important issues.

I can speak from experience that when I feel like a person wants every aspect of my life their way, I tend to (unfortunately and I work on it) shut them out of having any say on anything, even what they ought to. However, when people only try to have a say on those issues that really are mutual issues, I am usually very open to working on them.

All that being said, the things about the bars and the girl on girl stuff and the showing himself off to other women and the mean answers he gave you and the money stuff, well those are clearly wrongs on his part. So yes you need to deal with those things. If you do find that you need to let him have some room on some other things, remember that it will take him some time to realize this and to begin to open up on other things, if that is even going to happen.

I’ll keep praying for you, and you keep praying for you too!

 

[JimG]

I just find it difficult to believe that, if the situation is as the OP describes it, any true marriage ever existed. I also find it hard to believe that he showed no signs of this behavior prior to the marriage. Given the description, it may be that both parties lacked the due discretion needed to validly consent to marriage. But that’s not my decision to make. She needs to discuss it with someone more knowledgeable.

 

[Lazerlike42]

JimG:

I just find it difficult to believe that, if the situation is as the OP describes it, any true marriage ever existed. I also find it hard to believe that he showed no signs of this behavior prior to the marriage. Given the description, it may be that both parties lacked the due discretion needed to validly consent to marriage. But that’s not my decision to make. She needs to discuss it with someone more knowledgeable.

I would agree. Especially given what was in the last post. She seemed to say that the fellow basically pretended (lied) to her throughout the courtship that he cared what she has to say, all the while intending that after marriage he would be able to do whatever because she’d have no choice but to accept it. Similarly, he seemed to view the courtship as one big lie/game, as if he had to care about her and respect her beforehand because that’s part of the dating game, while planning after marriage to cease caring or respecting because they would be married and not needing to play the “game” anymore. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that he did not have the right mindset to enter into a valid marriage.

 

[st_ignatius110]

Yep, I agree with Lazer. The exterior things such as shaving etc…I agree, I don’t like that. I don’t mind the bald head so much…mu husband has a bald head…but regardless…those are external things that should not make or break a marriage.

I did notice this…

but he seems to think that his new physique should be really appealing for me, but id rather him just be home and at least listen to me.

and then it goes on about how he thinks you are terrible in bed. Why does he care what you think about his looks if he really thinks you are terrible in bed? It sounds like to me he is erally cocky and proud for one…as if you don’t know that already…but could it be he is also mad that you cut him off? I don’t know for sure, I am just wondering. Also, his not wanting to talk with you because you are emotional. Whew, we are emotional creatures, and most men are not and cannot seem to comprehend why we are crying!! I think many times this is not them trying to be hateful but just not understanding, getting frustrated and then letting that frustration turn into anger.

Another questions I have…what exactly does the following statement mean? What views does he not agree with that you are telling him?

Q: why did you respect my views back then on not having sex before marriage?
A: because i could take care of it myself without having to worry about a self-righteous wife trying to tell me what is and isnt wrong

Listen, I am not saying this is easy for you! I can tell by your posts your heart has been broken and stepped on. What I am saying is that it is very possible to save your marriage! Through prayer and the Sacraments anything can be accomplished!

 

[st_ignatius110]

We don’t know that he ‘knew her’ whenever he wanted her…
it’s quite possible she maintained her dignity and they united mutually, not one giving in to the other…

So are you then saying that Adam was lustful sometimes and not others? Also, if Adam and Eve both were open to life lust did not exist. I do think this may be going a little deeper then the text would allow since we don’t know the mindset of Adam since he and Eve were married.

She wouldn’t be withholding herself out of anger, it would be out of maintaining her honor and dignity.

Perhaps. If she did not withhold herself this would probably help help him not to commit the sin of porno and masturbation…now, I don’t know that a 100% for sure…but it could help. That is one of the ways husbands and wives help each other out in a marraige. You do not withhold yourself from your spouse because the danger of lust is ever present.

People can and do marry out of lust with no love…they just don’t know the difference. It comes up later on in the marriage when the ‘sparks die’ and then they get divorced.

Of course I agree with that.

As for offering up sufferings…better to offer up the suffering of not feeling the loving embrace of a loving husband than giving up the ‘suffering’ of having sex with someone who has no respect for her.

Again, perhaps.

 

[st_ignatius110]

Seminole Girl,

If you really need to you may get a second opinion on the anullment. Did you explain to the monsignor all that you just explained to us?

 

[Chris7]

SeminoleGirl22:

for some of you whove read my previous posts, well, things have not gotten better. married 5 months, and my husband refuses to stop looking at pornography.

i finally went to my church again to talk about an anullment, and i ended up meeting with a very old and very orthodox monsignor, who told me that my situation is not course for anullment, and that my primary duty as wife is to ensure my husband gets to heaven, no matter what.

he did say however, “i dont recall anything in the Bible about wives always having to take thier husbands on a mission with them…, do you??” he then gave me the name of an interfaith group of people traveling to africa for 24 days on a mission. so i took care of odds and ends here, and i went so that i could serve others who are in a much worse situation than me, to give my life perspective as he suggested.

i get back about 2 days ago, and while sorting through mail, i find a CITATION from the tallahassee police for “Noise Violation” and something else for about 500$. i read the complaint, and it said the police were called to my house for a noise disturbance and when they arrived, a party was going on—very loud.

so i find out my husband threw a football party for last saturdays FSU game, and invited like 35-40 people, some of which were UNMARRIED couples who he let stay over here in the same room and bed. i cant believe that he would let that kind of thing go on in my own house when he knows my views on that.

he told me that when i start paying the mortgage, then he’ll consider consulting me on who can and cant stay over while im away.

the complaint also cited that the arriving officers found two girls “making out” together while the guys there watched and cheered in front of everyone. i am completely horrified at what went on while i was gone. i am horrified that he would allow that to go on in our house, and actually enjoy watching that filth.

he just wont be reasonable. we still havent had sex in about 4 1/2 months, he wont stop watching porn, and he just does as he pleases all the time. and im supposed to try and get him to heaven? how on earth am i going to do that???

Beam me up Scottie…(from Star-trek)