Things Fall Apart - How Democrats gave up on religious voters

[estesbob]

That’s because abortion is an intrinsic evil whereas capital punishment isn’t. The CCC statement is totally based on the statement of JPII, but not on traditional Catholic doctrine. I am personally opposed to Capital punishment solely because of JPII’s statement, but nothing else, because there is nothing else to base it on. Capital punishment is a matter of prudential judgment, upon which it is permissible to disagree. Abortion is not a matter of prudential judgment.

It couldn’t be more obvious that imprisonment alone does not deter, e.g., murders and rapes by all individuals adjudged guilty of those crimes. It just doesn’t. I can’t help but think JPII’s statement included the thought that modern societies could, if they wished, truly prevent recidivism if they elected to establish and maintain, say, “supermax” prisons. But in the absence of doing that, life imprisonment does not protect others. It manifestly doesn’t.

I am continually surprised that pro-abortion Catholics still make the argument claiming that supporting death penalty is equivalent to supporting abortion. Pope Benedict the XVIcould not have made himself in rejecting ths. But then I guess when trying to defend the indefensible all sorts of mental gymnastics are required

 

[CMatt25]

I am not persuaded by your first assertion… You do know insurers’ rates are about the same or less than Medicare rates, do you not?

I’m just me.

That’s ok there’s a lot of things said by others that I’m not persuaded by either. I’m just me too. But you don’t need to tell me about Medicare. I took care of my mother for years and have older siblings on Medicare right now. Btw I’m familiar with JFK, HHH, Scoop Jackson and Nunn. God bless you and your wife. All the best and peace.

 

[CMatt25]

When he said, “The United States is no longer a Christian nation”, did he mean it is secular, pagan, or a Muslim conquest?

He meant the truth. Which is we are a nation of many faiths and beliefs.

 

[ishii]

Ishii, I believe it is killing to electrocute, lethally inject, or to kill a living, breathing, born with a soul human being by firing squad too. However I know plenty of Catholics who hold to what is considered the more politically conservative view on the death penalty and certainly advocate for greater use of the death penalty than the “very rare, if not practically non-existent” cases as taught in CCC 2267.

Yet for some reason I sure don’t see the Church stressing capital punishment today anywhere near She does abortion. She is so consumed in abortion and gays I am afraid, that She appears to me to look the other way and allow many Catholics to support killing thru an expanded, general use of the death penalty than what our CCC teaches. I don’t see the same cries to rein them in. I don’t see nearly the effort on behalf of the Church to push for outlawing capital punishment except in those “practically non-existent” cases.

You might believe it is strawman for me to say the no choice folk would not be happy until there is no choice whatsoever from the moment of conception. But you yourself admit some would then work to overturn abortion in the states as well. Of course they would. Because even with an overturn of Roe v Wade they would not be happy still until each state outlawed all abortion. We have seen this sort of involvement in states regarding gay marriage. So like you I have no doubt the same efforts would take place on the state level regarding abortion.

CMatt, why do you bring up capital punishment? How many people were killed by the death penalty in 2009? The answer is 52. How many unborn innocent babies were killed in 2009? 1.3 million. 2,400 of them after the sixth month. And yet, you prefer to focus on the issue of capital punishment. Why? I do not understand why you can’t see the evil of abortion for what it is and understand the importance of working to reform our laws on the practice - to save lives. But I must come back to the original question that I notice you didn’t answer: Do you think abortion is evil? I think it all comes down to that question, and I would be interested in your answer.

As for the pro-life people working to make abortion illegal from the moment of conception, isn’t that their “right” in a pluralistic democracy as you often say? I don’t think abortion will be quite that illegal (alas) but I do know that if Roe V Wade is overturned that unborn lives will be saved.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

*Ridgerunner, Reagan said at the outset of the 1984 election: “the Democrats have gone so far left, they’ve left the country.” With the death of Scoop Jackson in 1983, there were fewer and fewer conservative Democrats left. I have never been a Democrat but I always admired the conservative Democrats who remained steadfast in their opposition to communism - including Scoop and Claude Pepper, too. The takeover of the Democrat party by the left is one of the unfortunate political developments of the late 20th century. When speaking of those old Democrats, it is sometimes hard to guage where they stood on social issues because many of those social issues (gay rights, abortion) were not issues yet. At any rate, the Democrat party has never been the same since the days of JFK, Truman, and Scoop.

Ishii*

 

[Ridgerunner]

*Ridgerunner, Reagan said at the outset of the 1984 election: “the Democrats have gone so far left, they’ve left the country.” With the death of Scoop Jackson in 1983, there were fewer and fewer conservative Democrats left. I have never been a Democrat but I always admired the conservative Democrats who remained steadfast in their opposition to communism - including Scoop and Claude Pepper, too. The takeover of the Democrat party by the left is one of the unfortunate political developments of the late 20th century. When speaking of those old Democrats, it is sometimes hard to guage where they stood on social issues because many of those social issues (gay rights, abortion) were not issues yet. At any rate, the Democrat party has never been the same since the days of JFK, Truman, and Scoop.

Ishii*

Years ago, when I attended a Catholic university, virtually everyone there was a Democrat. For some years thereafter, one of the enjoyable things about Democrat party meetings and rallies was that it was almost like a school reunion. Slowly, people began to fall out of active participation in the party. Then, the “big change” came in Democrat politics, and abortion on demand became virtually the central feature of the Democrat policy position. It must be admitted that the party also took a sharp turn to the left (at least in ideology if not in act). I could live with the second, but not with the first.

Some years later, I attended a reunion at which a number of my old schoolmates were there. Many had been major party activists in the past. Of them all, only one was still a dedicated Democrat. Some had become Republicans, but most were just outside any party activity like me. Among those who had simply “dropped out”, abortion was the number one reason why they did.

I’ll grant that many Catholics have remained faithful to the Democrat party, notwithstanding its anti-life ideologies, or (shamefully) perhaps because of them. Truly, though, I don’t see how a Catholic can remain in support of the party the way it is now, particularly since it is no less in bed with Big Business interests than is the Republican party (perhaps more so now, if one looks at where big business money went in the 2008 elections), and since its agenda pretty clearly does not focus on benefitting the most needy.

Probably the most persuasive “non-partisan” statement that can be made is that both parties are focused almost exclusively on political goals. The Democrat party wants to create new constituencies by expanding dependency and recruiting new voters among illegal aliens. The Republican party wants to expand its constituency by embracing independents whose primary political interest is fiscal restraint, some of whom are essentially Libertarian, philosophically.

Personally, I am not attracted by the idea of expanding dependency on government, as it is clearly contrary to the Social Encyclicals, and for the reasons stated for the various Popes’ opposition to it. But even if I was persuaded that expanding dependency was somehow good for the body politic, I could not support the Democrat party because of its wedded devotion to abortion on demand. Notwithstanding the seeming influx of Libertarians in support (perhaps only temporary) of the Republican party, I see far more interest in preserving life with the Republican party than with the Democrat party.

 

[CMatt25]

CMatt, why do you bring up capital punishment? How many people were killed by the death penalty in 2009? The answer is 52. How many unborn innocent babies were killed in 2009? 1.3 million. 2,400 of them after the sixth month. And yet, you prefer to focus on the issue of capital punishment. Why? I do not understand why you can’t see the evil of abortion for what it is and understand the importance of working to reform our laws on the practice - to save lives. But I must come back to the original question that I notice you didn’t answer: Do you think abortion is evil? I think it all comes down to that question, and I would be interested in your answer.

As for the pro-life people working to make abortion illegal from the moment of conception, isn’t that their “right” in a pluralistic democracy as you often say? I don’t think abortion will be quite that illegal (alas) but I do know that if Roe V Wade is overturned that unborn lives will be saved.

Ishii

Ishii, apparently you missed my answer. “I believe it is killing to electrocute, lethally inject, or to kill a living, breathing, born with a soul human being by firing squad too.” Yet I fail to see the Church focusing as much on it. Ishii, killing 52 human born beings with a soul is still 52 too many. If you need further explanation, our Catholic Vice President Joe Biden offered a good explanation on pro choice during the 2008 campaign. You can probably find it somewhere. In any case evil is not going to be eradicated, Ishii, until our Lord comes again. So I would prefer if a woman is going to choose abortion based on her personal beliefs, that it be safe, legal but rare. We may never agree on this, Ishii. We may simply have to agree to disagree and move on. And I know you reject my offer of a sign of peace but God bless.

 

[Della]

True you may know nothing whatsoever about the state of my conscience nor my heart. But nevertheless here’s what you said in reply to me. “If we ignore Church teaching we are setting ourselves above Christ and his Church and that’s not the action of a well-formed conscience but of one formed by the opinions of the world.” Then now you add I apparently need to be informed of truth. So if I mistakenly read your words as saying I am setting myself above Christ, then pardon me. As to the rest, we’re merely going in circles. That is why I pray as a Church and a society that after 40 yrs we can move on. God bless you on your walk of faith. Peace.

I can only go by what you yourself write. If you believe that a woman has/should have the right to destroy her child merely for her convenience (which is what it is), then you have my deepest pity for God certainly doesn’t agree with you. If this is the case I truly tremble for you and pray you will come to see how wrong your position is for you will have to answer to God and the “I was only following my conscience” line will not hold water with him when you know the Church’s teaching and choose to ignore it. Again, I say if this is the case. I fervently pray it isn’t for every good reason I can think of.

 

[CMatt25]

I can only go by what you yourself write. If you believe that a woman has/should have the right to destroy her child merely for her convenience (which is what it is), then you have my deepest pity for God certainly doesn’t agree with you. If this is the case I truly tremble for you and pray you will come to see how wrong your position is for you will have to answer to God and the “I was only following my conscience” line will not hold water with him when you know the Church’s teaching and choose to ignore it. Again, I say if this is the case. I fervently pray it isn’t for every good reason I can think of.

I don’t know. I suppose maybe read Ex 21:22 for an idea of how the death of a fetus might not be equal to taking a life in another instance. But in any case I’m glad you seem to know what will and will not “hold water” with God. Thanks and God bless you along your faith journey. Peace.

 

[Suudy]

I don’t know. I suppose maybe read Ex 21:22 for an idea of how the death of a fetus might not be equal to taking a life in another instance.

From Exodus 21:22:
When men have a fight and hurt a pregnant woman, so that she suffers a miscarriage, but no further injury, the guilty one shall be fined as much as the woman’s husband demands of him, and he shall pay in the presence of the judges.
First, this is not about abortion, but about assault. It certainly doesn’t appear to be about the willful intended death of the unborn. Second, it most certainly is a wrong, otherwise there would be no punishment for it. Abortion, as it is now, is legal and subject to no punishment. Finally, nobody is suggesting that any particular death is equal to another. Note from the Catechism the key phrase:
**CCC 2271: **Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law.

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.
​

So, the quote from Exodus is not applicable here since it is not “abortion willed”, that is, it wasn’t intended. Namely, Exodus 21:22 is speaking of manslaughter, not murder.

 

[ishii]

Ishii, apparently you missed my answer. “I believe it is killing to electrocute, lethally inject, or to kill a living, breathing, born with a soul human being by firing squad too.” Yet I fail to see the Church focusing as much on it. Ishii, killing 52 human born beings with a soul is still 52 too many. If you need further explanation, our Catholic Vice President Joe Biden offered a good explanation on pro choice during the 2008 campaign. You can probably find it somewhere. In any case evil is not going to be eradicated, Ishii, until our Lord comes again. So I would prefer if a woman is going to choose abortion based on her personal beliefs, that it be safe, legal but rare. We may never agree on this, Ishii. We may simply have to agree to disagree and move on. And I know you reject my offer of a sign of peace but God bless.

**You still are not answering the question. Do you think abortion is evil? A simple yes or no will do. Another question, since evil won’t be eradicated until our LOrd comes again, should we give up on having laws against murder, theft, rape etc. since those evils won’t be completely eradicated? That is what you’re implying. You want abortion to be rare? How rare, and why? What do you think would be an acceptable number of abortions CMatt? I truly hope that you can give me a direct answer to these questions. Or, that even if not answering them, you can reflect on all the verbal gymnastics you have to engage in to defend the morally bankrupt position of pro-choice and consider a change of heart.

Ishii**

 

[CMatt25]

You still are not answering the question.

I’ve answered the question more than once but here it is again: “I believe it is killing to electrocute, lethally inject, or to kill a living, breathing, born with a soul human being by firing squad too.” In short the death penalty I believe is killing too.

I am just able to separate however what I believe with what I believe the political law of the land should be in a secular democracy of plural beliefs on the abortion issue. Hope that helps.

 

[Della]

I’ve answered the question more than once but here it is again: “I believe it is killing to electrocute, lethally inject, or to kill a living, breathing, born with a soul human being by firing squad too.” In short the death penalty I believe is killing too.

Yes, it is killing, but it’s not murder nor does the Church teach that the death penalty is intrinsically evil as it does abortion. They are not equally wrong just as killing in war is not intrinsically evil, either.

I am just able to separate however what I believe with what I believe the political law of the land should be in a secular democracy of plural beliefs on the abortion issue. Hope that helps.

It is impossible for a Catholic to divorce himself from practicing his Catholic faith no matter how pluralistic the society in which he lives may be. If you vote for pro-abortion candidates when a pro-life candidate is a viable, electable option, then you are obligated to vote pro-life. Other issues can be solved in a variety of ways, but once the life of an unborn child is taken it can never be restored. That is the reality we are talking about here.

 

[CMatt25]

Yes, it is killing, but it’s not murder nor does the Church teach that the death penalty is intrinsically evil as it does abortion. They are not equally wrong just as killing in war is not intrinsically evil, either.

It is impossible for a Catholic to divorce himself from practicing his Catholic faith no matter how pluralistic the society in which he lives may be. If you vote for pro-abortion candidates when a pro-life candidate is a viable, electable option, then you are obligated to vote pro-life. Other issues can be solved in a variety of ways, but once the life of an unborn child is taken it can never be restored. That is the reality we are talking about here.

I know what you are talking about. I also know words in CCC regarding whether the death penalty today is absolutely necessary, include it stating cases are “very rare, if not practically non-existent.” I also know there are words in CCC similar to what a bishop has told me about the Sacrament of Baptism and how it incorporates one into the Church, and what a Pontifical Council wrote about a permanent bond which is not lost by any act. But I do not speak for the Catholic Church on this forum.

 

[ishii]

I’ve answered the question more than once but here it is again: “I believe it is killing to electrocute, lethally inject, or to kill a living, breathing, born with a soul human being by firing squad too.” In short the death penalty I believe is killing too.

I am just able to separate however what I believe with what I believe the political law of the land should be in a secular democracy of plural beliefs on the abortion issue. Hope that helps.

Why, when asked if abortion is evil or not, you anwer: “capital punishment is evil” The question is, " Is abortion evil or not?" Simple answer: “yes its evil” or “no its not evil”. btw, what is a "born with a soul human being" ? Is there such a thing as a not born with a soul human being? Don’t all human beings have souls? The abortion issue is very simple: either you believe its evil, or you don’t, and then you act accordingly. I truly wish you’d give me an answer to the straightforward question I’ve asked you.

Also, earlier, I said in answer to one of your posts, “there is no peace as long as there are thousands of babies being aborted every year.” I was wrong for not accepting your wishes of “peace” and want to commend you for your civility in these discussions.

Ishii

 

[estesbob]

Yes, it is killing, but it’s not murder nor does the Church teach that the death penalty is intrinsically evil as it does abortion. They are not equally wrong just as killing in war is not intrinsically evil, either.

Correct . The Pope himself made it crystal clear that there is no equivalency whatsoever between supporting the death penalty and supporting abortion. In fact he emphatically stated that Catholics could support the death penalty even though he himself does not.

It is impossible for a Catholic to divorce himself from practicing his Catholic faith no matter how pluralistic the society in which he lives may be. If you vote for pro-abortion candidates when a pro-life candidate is a viable, electable option, then you are obligated to vote pro-life. Other issues can be solved in a variety of ways, but once the life of an unborn child is taken it can never be restored. That is the reality we are talking about here.

Many Catholics seem to think that being able to divorce their faith from their politics is an admirable trait. It is not The truth of the matter is this is not a Partyl issue. We must oppose abortion regardless of the political party of the one promoting it and regardless of how great we may think the pro-abortion candidate is on the other issues. All rights flow from the right to life. Supporting abortion while claiming to be a champion of those children lucky enough to escape from the womb should not garner one the Catholic vote.

Hopefully this thread is not again going to get sucked down the rabbit hole of a semantics argument about who really is a Catholic. We are not discussing what label one chooses to hang on themselves-you can tell what people are by their actions much more than you can by their words. We are discussing the church teaching on abortion and whether a Catholic is obligated to follow that teaching.

 

[CMatt25]

Why, when asked if abortion is evil or not, you anwer: “capital punishment is evil” The question is, " Is abortion evil or not?" Simple answer: “yes its evil” or “no its not evil”. btw, what is a "born with a soul human being" ? Is there such a thing as a not born with a soul human being? Don’t all human beings have souls? The abortion issue is very simple: either you believe its evil, or you don’t, and then you act accordingly. I truly wish you’d give me an answer to the straightforward question I’ve asked you.

Also, earlier, I said in answer to one of your posts, “there is no peace as long as there are thousands of babies being aborted every year.” I was wrong for not accepting your wishes of “peace” and want to commend you for your civility in these discussions.

Ishii

Ishii, because I believe capital punishment is killing “too”. But just because I personally believe something about either does not make it the law of a democratic land, nor am I certain it necessarily should be.

Thank you so much for your commending words regarding my civility. You have been as well. I certainly know neither of us desire to spit on the other nor on anyone. And I always wish you peace and God’s blessing on your journey, Ishii. As I know you do to me as well.

 

[CMatt25]

Correct . The Pope himself made it crystal clear that there is no equivalency whatsoever between supporting the death penalty and supporting abortion. In fact he emphatically stated that Catholics could support the death penalty even though he himself does not.

Many Catholics seem to think that being able to divorce their faith from their politics is an admirable trait. It is not The truth of the matter is this is not a Partyl issue. We must oppose abortion regardless of the political party of the one promoting it and regardless of how great we may think the pro-abortion candidate is on the other issues. All rights flow from the right to life. Supporting abortion while claiming to be a champion of those children lucky enough to escape from the womb should not garner one the Catholic vote.

Hopefully this thread is not again going to get sucked down the rabbit hole of a semantics argument about who really is a Catholic. We are not discussing what label one chooses to hang on themselves-you can tell what people are by their actions much more than you can by their words. We are discussing the church teaching on abortion and whether a Catholic is obligated to follow that teaching.

I thought this thread was about Democrats and voters which to me encompasses more than abortion. But nevertheless, here is the double standard as it appears to me.

Catholics who vote for candidates who are pro choice because they support them on many other life issues are criticized, seemingly deemed not welcomed or in some circles are even deemed not Catholic. Yet I personally know many politically conservative Catholic Republicans who would deem themselves among the faithful to the Catechism, yet support capital punishment in far more cases than the “very rare, if not practically non-existent” ones spoken of in the Catechism. And yet they seem to me not to have even an eyebrow raised at them by the Church.

So as I see it if the Church has given clearance to believe in capital punishment beyond “very rare if not practically non existent” cases as it seems to me from my personal experience with Catholics many do, I would just think those words of in “very rare if not practically non existent” cases should either then be removed from CCC. Or if the Pope and Church gives license to believe in capital punishmnent only in those practically non existent cases, then She (the Church) be just as strong against those who differ on that. But as it stands now it appears to me those who are pro choice are criticized far greater. While those who support the state killing peple in more than “very rare if not practically non-existent” cases, have not an eye batted towards them. And that’s just appears to be a double standard to me. Tha’s all.

 

[Suudy]

While those who support the state killing peple in more than “very rare if not practically non-existent” cases, have not an eye batted towards them. And that’s just appears to be a double standard to me. Tha’s all.

You don’t seem to understand the difference. Abortion is intrinsically evil, capital punishment is not. There is no, zero, zilch, nada valid reason for abortion. There isn’t even a sometimes it is ok, not matter how crazy a scenario. It isn’t to be “very rare if not practically non-existent.” It is to never occur.

Capital punishment is not in itself intrinsically evil. There do exist (though not today) cases where capital punishment can be permissible. Note that killing itself is not the issue. It is the killing of innocent people that is the problem. Killing those convicted of capital crimes don’t come close to the killing of innocent children in the womb.

It isn’t a double standard because the standard isn’t the same. We are talking about the intentional murder of innocent people versus killing of convicted criminals. The standard–innocence versus guilt–is different.

Also, the reason you probably don’t see an “eye batted” toward those who support capital punishment is for two reasons: 1) it isn’t intrinsically evil, and 2) it occurs significantly less often than abortion. If we put 3,700 people per day to death for crimes I guarantee there would be an uproar. If we put 37 people per day to death for crimes there would be an uproar. Also, if 3,700 people per day were murdered, there’d be a clamor so loud to take care of the crime. Why then is there such silence with regard to the murder of 3,700 children every day?

 

[CMatt25]

You don’t seem to understand the difference. Abortion is intrinsically evil, capital punishment is not. There is no, zero, zilch, nada valid reason for abortion. There isn’t even a sometimes it is ok, not matter how crazy a scenario. It isn’t to be “very rare if not practically non-existent.” It is to never occur.

Capital punishment is not in itself intrinsically evil. There do exist (though not today) cases where capital punishment can be permissible. Note that killing itself is not the issue. It is the killing of innocent people that is the problem. Killing those convicted of capital crimes don’t come close to the killing of innocent children in the womb.

It isn’t a double standard because the standard isn’t the same. We are talking about the intentional murder of innocent people versus killing of convicted criminals. The standard–innocence versus guilt–is different.

Also, the reason you probably don’t see an “eye batted” toward those who support capital punishment is for two reasons: 1) it isn’t intrinsically evil, and 2) it occurs significantly less often than abortion. If we put 3,700 people per day to death for crimes I guarantee there would be an uproar. If we put 37 people per day to death for crimes there would be an uproar. Also, if 3,700 people per day were murdered, there’d be a clamor so loud to take care of the crime. Why then is there such silence with regard to the murder of 3,700 children every day?

Oh I understand Suudy the Church makes the standards different, the focus on numbers and all the rest. I merely was questioning whether those standards perfectly reflect fairness across the spectrum.

A. Catholics who might dissent on choice or perhaps something else are clamped down on and even sometimes might feel they are being pushed away from the Church.

B. CCC states regarding capital punishment there are only “very rare if not non existent” cases for it to be implememted today.

C. Yet those who are stronger pro death penalty than the CCC seem to me to be embraced much more freely.

But again I understand obviously if the Church is going to define one thing “intrinsically evil” with as you put it “no, zero, zilch, nada valid reason” and where “there isn’t even a sometimes it is ok, not matter how crazy a scenario” for it, “never to occur” standard. Make exceptions for guilt vs innocent. And look at a lesser number of born human beings having their lives taken by the state as perhaps less troubling than the number of fetuses aborted, then those are Her standards. Again I merely was questioning the perfection of those standards is all. And hopefully I pray in a charitable, respectful manner with civility as our friend Ishii commended me for. God bless you Suddy. Peace.