Things I learned from feminism I wish I'd learned from Christianity

[chevalier]

OK, Red Pill guys–what is the difference between a wife and a slave?[/qoute]

A wife is her own person.

Still, in terms of Christianity or even secular morality, just like any other person, a wife, or any woman, is not exempt from the same moral rules that everybody is supposed to play.

Also, a wife plays in the same team of two with her husband, which essentially means that she’s no longer able to be single any more than the husband is.

This means, among other things, that she has to include him in the decisions she makes about her life and that absolute individual sovereignty and desire to make a point of making decisions only with herself in mind, serving only her own convenience or interest, guided by only her own preferences, without consultation with anyone else, with no scrutiny or even questions, purposefully excluding any consideration of her husband just so she can remain so perfectly individually sovereign etc. etc. — that’s all misplaced and has nothing to do with Christianity (it’s a form of individual supremacism).

Between supremacism and slavery there is of course a very, very wide spectrum. It’s not either or. Emphatically the lack of a licence for unrestrained individualism or egoism does not constitute slavery. Having to take circumstances into account and being limited in one’s options is not slavery either (otherwise we’d all be slaves).

I’ve never been able to make out the difference in what the roles are supposed to be in you guys’ book.

 

[DarkLight]

Already addressed with a private contract written with the advice of a quality lawyer.

You do realize, at least in the U.S., that’s not possible for child support. It may be possible for alimony, but that can be set aside. Child support, however, is the right of the child and not the parent, and the parent is not legally able to waive it for them.

In any case, if what she needs is for you to support your children and ensure she receives a fair reward for raising them and thus taking herself out of the workforce (thus freeing you from the need to pay others to do so), what would you do?

 

[Xantippe]

I am not going to give a serious answer to a loaded question ever.

Here’s another loaded question.

What is your life plan for women?

As far as I can reconstruct it, looks something like this:

–BE A VIRGIN
–enter into legally unwedded bliss with some guy, have kids, no joint property rights, no Social Security survivorship, no nothing
–live happily ever after

Really, how many people in the US do that successfully who are not mega-rich?

It’s especially hard to see how that combines well with SAHM-ing. The motivation structure there is for women to do the following:

–have own income
–don’t sacrifice career (if boyfriend wants to move for a better-paying job that would hurt girlfriend’s job that’s too darn bad–he can move by himself)
–don’t quit working for any substantial period of time
–have 1-2 kids max (again–can’t hurt that career)
–have own property
–have own savings

In practice, I think it would encourage women to be more career-minded and less family-minded.

Edited to add: Notice how, in practice, that plan is almost impossible to differentiate from the 1970s/1980s feminist plan for women.

 

[DarkLight]

Then chances are you may be looking for some sort of absolutely unlimited and restrained agency for a woman, some sort of absolute individualism, and viewing anything less as slavery.

Or chances are that perhaps the sharing of things in marriage, the whole ‘no longer two but one’, is something you find to be incompatible with individual freedom, irrespective of one’s sex?

And for the record, those lousy lord-and-master reconstructionists, if you really do bump into any, are certainly not mainstream or not representative of Catholic or more broadly Christian men as a whole.

Chevalier, I don’t think the slavery thing was addressed to you. I don’t always see eye to eye with you, but most days you at least make sense as something compatible within Catholic respect for women.

When we’re talking about starshiptrooper or NonTimendum…it really does sound like the role of women is to shut up and do whatever her man says.

 

[Xantippe]

**You do realize, at least in the U.S., that’s not possible for child support. It may be possible for alimony, but that can be set aside. ** Child support, however, is the right of the child and not the parent, and the parent is not legally able to waive it for them.

In any case, if what she needs is for you to support your children and ensure she receives a fair reward for raising them and thus taking herself out of the workforce (thus freeing you from the need to pay others to do so), what would you do?

That’s a very interesting point about child support not being something mothers are even legally allowed to sign away.

 

[chevalier]

Unfortunately, having grown up in Protestantism like DarkLight (but fortunately not quite as weird a Protestantism), what she says matches my experience. As I’ve mentioned before on CAF, when I was a young woman, I wound up with an idea of dating for the young Christian woman being like being a hockey goalie. The woman is supposed to deflect the pucks, and eventually she gets rewarded with marriage for being so good and pure.

Ain’t much different from European Catholic bourgeois delusions from 100 years ago. My sympathies if you were surrounded by that nonsense; I personally can’t put up with it, it bumps my cynicism and sarcasm levels to the max in a jiffy. Just as inevitably as feminism does, or worse.

This was a very silly idea, but (as I’ve discovered from online reading) not uncommon. Having this view, I did not expect any self-control from men.

Doesn’t strike me as particularly Catholic or even compatible with the kind of Protestants we have in Europe, but in some brands of American Protestantism it wouldn’t really surprise me. Well, welcome home, that is Rome.

As I believe Dark Light has mentioned, the problem with this view is that encourages young women to put up with behavior they should not tolerate and it means that men can engage in bad behavior and it will just be seen as just part of the normal “hockey game.” You wind up with very low expectations for male behavior.

Where I grew up the standard was that you could be forgiven if you rather quickly underwent and demonstrated a change of heart, along with display of a huge deal of redeeming qualities, but normally anything a woman would need to attempt to deflect would get you in real bad trouble in no time.

(Obviously bar the usual nonsense of upper-class men getting away with accosting servants, not that there were any servants still around when I was a lad, but the memory in society was still quite vivid.)

How often have you seen guys on CAF talk about women as being the “gate keepers” of sex? I’ve seen it a lot.

I’m more used to hearing about men being burdened with that responsibility on account of the couple. As in no matter whatever she consents to, you’re still the guilty party, you corrupted her, her consent is presumed vitiated (forced on her) or otherwise invalid etc. Or just the sort of implied guardianship that puts us in a St Joseph sort of position (which is unfair, considering the woman is a peer and not a daughter or student or whatever).

This is definitely an example where feminists do have something to offer women that too many Christians are not offering (even though they should)

I’m afraid I’ll have to grudgingly agree then. As much as I dislike feminism, even from a position of equality (or precisely because of it). Not that my dislike of feminism is news to anyone. Sigh. Apologies if I make it too tedious to bear. I just can’t stand any form of supremacism, be it racism or castism or classism or something sex-based.

-the understanding that men (or women) who do not accept a “no” are dangerous to be around, and that we should run away from them as fast as our feet can carry us.

I agree, though there’s always a but, isn’t there? The ‘but’ in this case is that a man might still look somewhat affected or even actually complain, or attempt to persuade or tempt (yup, men tempt too), even though he will respect the boundary and the decision per se.

(Now, tempters and persuaders are a potential danger in terms of occasion of sin, but that’s something a little different from being a potential rapist.)

My issue with that is that the picture is too extreme, too artificially 0/1 black-and-white, putting all men in the same basket and throwing the baby out with the bathwater while playing up to fears (quite possibly in order to sell a book or something like that). Which is basically the reason for my rather obvious negative sentiment. (As much as I believe in equality and freedom and appreciate safety.)

 

[Xantippe]

Xantippe;14748651:

OK, Red Pill guys–what is the difference between a wife and a slave?[/qoute]

A wife is her own person.

Still, in terms of Christianity or even secular morality, just like any other person, a wife, or any woman, is not exempt from the same moral rules that everybody is supposed to play.

Also, a wife plays in the same team of two with her husband, which essentially means that she’s no longer able to be single any more than the husband is.

This means, among other things, that she has to include him in the decisions she makes about her life and that absolute individual sovereignty and desire to make a point of making decisions only with herself in mind, serving only her own convenience or interest, guided by only her own preferences, without consultation with anyone else, with no scrutiny or even questions, purposefully excluding any consideration of her husband just so she can remain so perfectly individually sovereign etc. etc. — that’s all misplaced and has nothing to do with Christianity (it’s a form of individual supremacism).

Between supremacism and slavery there is of course a very, very wide spectrum. It’s not either or. Emphatically the lack of a licence for unrestrained individualism or egoism does not constitute slavery. Having to take circumstances into account and being limited in one’s options is not slavery either (otherwise we’d all be slaves).

Then chances are you may be looking for some sort of absolutely unlimited and restrained agency for a woman, some sort of absolute individualism, and viewing anything less as slavery.

Or chances are that perhaps the sharing of things in marriage, the whole ‘no longer two but one’, is something you find to be incompatible with individual freedom, irrespective of one’s sex?

And for the record, those lousy lord-and-master reconstructionists, if you really do bump into any, are certainly not mainstream or not representative of Catholic or more broadly Christian men as a whole.

I’m not talking about orthodox Catholic theology, but specifically about “Christian” Red Pill marriage ideology, which I am quite familiar with.

In that ideology, a wife is functionally impossible to distinguish from a slave. She should have no rights, she’s allowed to have no needs, and she must do exactly what she’s told. And “Christian” Red Pill guys are pretty weird about kids, too.

Unsurprisingly, “Christian” Red Pill guys tend not to be happily married. Either they are single, divorced, or married and “unhaaaaaappy” (to use their term).

The basic problem with the “Christian” Red Pill is the refusal to accept that both men and women have needs, and both men and women need to be able to have boundaries. Again, using Red Pill terminology, I put that down to “solipsism.”

 

[chevalier]

Yes, judging by the description it does sound like a bunch of supremacist and solipistic ideas. Well, anyway, forget about that now, it’s certainly not representative of Catholic men, thankfully. (Although you will find some such ideas among the most radical of reconstructionist Catholic traditionalists who are more influenced by Protestantism than they care to think. Though that may have more to do with loving to run a strict military camp than any religion in particular.)

 

[Lea101]

One thing I find quite worrying about the red pill-esque men is they sincerely do not think they are being misogynistic. And whatever comments they get, they brush it off and act like those women are just crazy radical feminists/“blue pilled” losers who don’t know anything. When you ask them about what they sincerely believe about women, they freak out and deflect/change the subject/suddenly act like you don’t deserve to know the answer/(insert any other action besides answering the question honestly).

It amazes me how similar they are to radfems, their sworn enemies.

 

[chevalier]

.it really does sound like the role of women is to shut up and do whatever her man says.

Oh no, we can’t have that. That would be too boring.

It amazes me how similar they are to radfems, their sworn enemies.

Let’s lock them in the same pen.

And sell tickets.

 

[Lea101]

Yes, judging by the description it does sound like a bunch of supremacist and solipistic ideas. Well, anyway, forget about that now, it’s certainly not representative of Catholic men, thankfully. (Although you will find some such ideas among the most radical of reconstructionist Catholic traditionalists who are more influenced by Protestantism than they care to think. Though that may have more to do with loving to run a strict military camp than any religion in particular.)

I’m so thankful that while flawed (like all of us), most Catholic men are more decent than other denominations I’ve come across. I honestly hope they are celebrated instead of being lumped with a group of hostile men wanting to join the oppression Olympics.

Reading this thread is such a weird experience because we tend to view America as a cesspool of immorality and liberalism here, but from my experience, Asian men (usually with traditional and rather sexist views) still treat women “more equally” than such men we are discussing about.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m so thankful that while flawed (like all of us), most Catholic men are more decent than other denominations I’ve come across. I honestly hope they are celebrated instead of being lumped with a group of hostile men wanting to join the oppression Olympics.

Reading this thread is such a weird experience because we tend to view America as a cesspool of immorality and liberalism here, but from my experience,** Asian men (usually with traditional and rather sexist views) still treat women “more equally” than such men we are discussing about.**

I suspect the issue is that your real life Asian men have to deal with things as they are and work together with their wives to make a life together for their families.

Part of the reason that the Red Pill wish-list for women is so extreme is that their world is (like the Matrix) almost entirely imaginary. There are very, very few Red Pill men who even claim to be living their ideal life of adoring female servitude.

 

[pensmama87]

I’m so thankful that while flawed (like all of us), most Catholic men are more decent than other denominations I’ve come across. I honestly hope they are celebrated instead of being lumped with a group of hostile men wanting to join the oppression Olympics.

Reading this thread is such a weird experience because we tend to view America as a cesspool of immorality and liberalism here, but from my experience, Asian men (usually with traditional and rather sexist views) still treat women “more equally” than such men we are discussing about.

As an American woman, I would say most of the men I have known are decent human beings, and treat me as a human being. We may not have the same life experiences, but there’s an understanding that we’re not out to “get” each other.

My husband and I had a discussion recently where I explained to him all the measures I’d been taught as a teen and young adult to lessen the likelihood I would be targeted as a rape victim. He was flabbergasted. I don’t live in constant fear or suspect every man I meet, but it’s like checking all your mirrors when you’re driving - you’re on alert. He’s almost never on alert, unless he’s with our kids walking down a busy road or in a bad neighborhood with cash in his pocket.

 

[Lea101]

As an American woman, I would say most of the men I have known are decent human beings, and treat me as a human being. We may not have the same life experiences, but there’s an understanding that we’re not out to “get” each other.

My husband and I had a discussion recently where I explained to him all the measures I’d been taught as a teen and young adult to lessen the likelihood I would be targeted as a rape victim. He was flabbergasted. I don’t live in constant fear or suspect every man I meet, but it’s like checking all your mirrors when you’re driving - you’re on alert. He’s almost never on alert, unless he’s with our kids walking down a busy road or in a bad neighborhood with cash in his pocket.

It’s funny how people create this weird perception of the opposite sex. Most men aren’t oppressors and most women aren’t gold diggers. Doesn’t hurt to be on the look out but it’s annoying when people insist they know the nature of men/women.

I was just having this conversation with my older brother. I was talking about how I take a different route when I see men loitering ahead of me (at night) or how I stand by the elevator buttons if a man gets in after I do…he was also shocked

Cute thing is that he told me he feels really awkward when a women in front of him walks quickly when she senses his presence. He says he wants to tell her that he just happened to be walking to the same place and that he isn’t some creep, despite of what signals his facial hair might give

 

[DarkLight]

As an American woman, I would say most of the men I have known are decent human beings, and treat me as a human being. We may not have the same life experiences, but there’s an understanding that we’re not out to “get” each other.

My husband and I had a discussion recently where I explained to him all the measures I’d been taught as a teen and young adult to lessen the likelihood I would be targeted as a rape victim. He was flabbergasted. I don’t live in constant fear or suspect every man I meet, but it’s like checking all your mirrors when you’re driving - you’re on alert. He’s almost never on alert, unless he’s with our kids walking down a busy road or in a bad neighborhood with cash in his pocket.

Right. The majority of men I meet are decent. Even the majority of indecent men I meet aren’t rapists. Man problems are lack of thought rather than ill intent, as well.

 

[NonTimendum]

No offense, but it seems that both starshiptrooper and NonTimendum think pretty darn close to that way based on their own posts.

Really, saying one’s mom and sister-in-law are the only decent woman you’ve met? Or that you would automatically listen to a man over a woman because a woman’s probably taking credit for something a man did?

You’ve definitely learned the feminist art of strawmanning. I never said the only decent women I have met were those two, just that the risks involved with associating with women other than them are largely not worth it, and thus decent or not, I tend to avoid women with whom I am not required to associate.

You’re the one who demanded respect and attention irrespective of any actual talent or achievement. And yes, chances are that a woman got a lot more help and a lit less open challenge than a man. Feminists like to pretend that’s the other way around, but we all know it’s true.

 

[AdamP88]

It’s funny how people create this weird perception of the opposite sex. Most men aren’t oppressors and most women aren’t gold diggers. Doesn’t hurt to be on the look out but it’s annoying when people insist they know the nature of men/women.

I was just having this conversation with my older brother. I was talking about how I take a different route when I see men loitering ahead of me (at night) or how I stand by the elevator buttons if a man gets in after I do…he was also shocked

Cute thing is that he told me he feels really awkward when a women in front of him walks quickly when she senses his presence. He says he wants to tell her that he just happened to be walking to the same place and that he isn’t some creep, despite of what signals his facial hair might give

Yeah. I agree. I would say for the majority of Catholics (and people in general) this whole Red-Pill, feminism discussion is irrelevant. Not that many women are really invested in the feminist movement and not that many men are into Red-Pill philosophy. Most people just try to get along in life treating the opposite sex normally without reference to some ideology. In marriage it makes little sense to do everything according to some philosophy anyway,

 

[DarkLight]

You’ve definitely learned the feminist art of strawmanning. I never said the only decent women I have met were those two, just that the risks involved with associating with women other than them are largely not worth it, and thus decent or not, I tend to avoid women with whom I am not required to associate.

Honestly, I’ve learned one thing from feminism above all other things. Around women: keep your head down, smile and nod, never say anything they can take as a challenge, and stay as far away from all of them as you can unless you absolutely have to be around them. My mom and my sister-in-law are the only exceptions to that rule.

If there are two people telling me something, one is a man and the other is a woman, I’ll probably listen to the man. Why? Because chances are he earned it. Chances are the woman was given it, but wants me to pretend she earned it, and is perfectly willing to form a coalition of men to force me to play along. When I disagree with a man, it’s just me and him. When I disagree with a woman, it’s me and her and every man and woman within earshot.

Right.

You’re the one who demanded respect and attention irrespective of any actual talent or achievement. And yes, chances are that a woman got a lot more help and a lit less open challenge than a man. Feminists like to pretend that’s the other way around, but we all know it’s true.

Every man, woman, and child deserves basic respect based on their human dignity. They also deserve the respect of being given a chance, not automatically assumed to be trash based on their race, sex, or anything else.

The average man who’s yelling about how he wants to touch my body on the street - do you think he’s got any concern about my talent or achievement? Or does he just see a woman with big breasts under her blouse and skirt and decide he can disrespect her?

 

[NonTimendum]

Interestingly, rates of sexual assault are WAY down in the US.

Statistics… I wonder if they include the 80% of illegals who are raped coming across the border.

Anyway, feminism is older than the 1980s and isn’t it the feminists who are crying “rape culture” lately?

Any theory about the US that assumes everything is getting more and more terrible and feminism is the reason needs to explain those facts.

Feminism is A reason, those are not facts, and you and I have wildly different definitions of what constitutes “terrible” so there’s really no common ground here for us to find. We will never agree.

 

[NonTimendum]

Every man, woman, and child deserves basic respect based on their human dignity. They also deserve the respect of being given a chance, not automatically assumed to be trash based on their race, sex, or anything else.

Did I say they were trash?

The average man who’s yelling about how he wants to touch my body on the street - do you think he’s got any concern about my talent or achievement? Or does he just see a woman with big breasts under her blouse and skirt and decide he can disrespect her?

I don’t think you get yelled at in the street as often as you claim, if ever. I think you’d like to be yelled at in the street because it 1) makes you feel attractive and 2) gives you a nice fat victim card to play whenever an argument gets tough. Funny how all this catcalling is happening but I’ve never seen it, no one I know (except for women) has ever done or seen it, but it is constantly happening, I’m assured. Funny how its always brought up when a woman is arguing with a man and needs an emotional appeal to rally the troops in her defense. I mean what can I say? If I argue any more than I’m a heartless jerk. If I doubt your story than I’m suddenly as bad or worse than the very men who allegedly did it.

Very convenient. Fortunately for women, few men will ever challenge them on it. Easier to just eat that danged apple.