Think Before You Breed

[HerCrazierHalf]

I think it would be more accurate to say that there is a trend away from childbearing that takes three forms:

1. Delayed childbearing
2. Fewer children, and
3. No children

While it is true that most people are not going all the way to #3, it is the case that pretty much everyone, Cathoilcs included, are following #1 and #2.

Then the other huge underlying question is whether or not this is something that wasn’t feasible/socially acceptable or do more people have easier access to the means for #1 & #2? Also, isn’t #1 & 2 an exercise in responsibility for the future children? Quite a few of my peers(now 30+) were not ready for children in their 20s and are aiming for “1 and done”. Takes a while to stabilize one’s life, get married, stabilize married life together (finances, career, housing suitable for children, time), then start trying for kids.

My experience is that there is no need to “compel” people to have children. What we are getting now is a very one-sided debate; there is little or no public discussion of the very good reasons why someone would want to have children.

In a way there is. Before children were more the result of the marital embrace, a more passive result of those acts if you will. Now it is an actual choice to “try” or even “allow” children to be the result.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Then the other huge underlying question is whether or not this is something that wasn’t feasible/socially acceptable or do more people have easier access to the means for #1 & #2? Also, isn’t #1 & 2 an exercise in responsibility for the future children? Quite a few of my peers(now 30+) were not ready for children in their 20s and are aiming for “1 and done”. Takes a while to stabilize one’s life, get married, stabilize married life together (finances, career, housing suitable for children, time), then start trying for kids.

This gets to a larger issue but it’s not clear to me that people who wait to have children are better parents than those who marry and have children earlier. I have never seen any statistical evidence for that after removing unwed births. People also delay marriage with the same explanation.

I would challenge the idea that you have to stabilize your life before getting married and having children. Rather, getting married is the first step for many in building a stable life and not getting married simply postpones this. You can see this in exremis in Japan where it is becoming typical for young people to live at home and spend their entire salary on fashion and entertainment.

This is the perpetual adolescence of modern society.

In a way there is. Before children were more the result of the marital embrace, a more passive result of those acts if you will. Now it is an actual choice to “try” or even “allow” children to be the result.

This is the reason that I am disappointed with those who rest on traditinoalism. For most of human history, children just happened. Ideally they happened in marriage. But with the advent of contraceptives, children and sex are no longer inextricably linked.

Raising children is now a choice and almost all the voices are arrayed against that choice.

 

[Xantippe]

I think it would be more accurate to say that there is a trend away from childbearing that takes three forms:

1. Delayed childbearing
2. Fewer children, and
3. No children

While it is true that most people are not going all the way to #3, it is the case that pretty much everyone, Cathoilcs included, are following #1 and #2.

My experience is that there is no need to “compel” people to have children. What we are getting now is a very one-sided debate; there is little or no public discussion of the very good reasons why someone would want to have children.

Nah, if you go to more female-oriented venues online (for instance Dear Wendy), you will find lots and lots of discussions featuring women who want a baby NOW or who are fretting because a relationship isn’t going anywhere and they’re 29 or 31 or whatever and they are off-track for having two kids before 35.

Maybe it’s fairer to say that there aren’t a lot of male-oriented media venues that talk about why men might want children?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Nah, if you go to more female-oriented venues online (for instance Dear Wendy), you will find lots and lots of discussions featuring women who want a baby NOW or who are fretting because a relationship isn’t going anywhere and they’re 29 or 31 or whatever and they are off-track for having two kids before 35.

Maybe it’s fairer to say that there aren’t a lot of male-oriented media venues that talk about why men might want children?

I don’t disagree but these are precisely the women that “Think Before You Breed” is aimed at. These women desire children and they are being told by their betters that they should not.

And you are right that the childbearing issues hinges partly on the marriage and relationship issue.

 

[Xantippe]

This gets to a larger issue but it’s not clear to me that people who wait to have children are better parents than those who marry and have children earlier. I have never seen any statistical evidence for that after removing unwed births. People also delay marriage with the same explanation.

**Delayed marriages are statistically sounder marriages.

With regard to parenting, I don’t know if there’s any work on parenting quality by parents of different ages, but I think removing unwed births is kind of a biggie, given that nearly half of all first babies are born to unwed mothers. It’s pretty much impossible to discuss childbearing in the US now without talking about that.

cbsnews.com/news/almost-half-of-first-babies-in-us-born-to-unwed-mothers/**

I would challenge the idea that you have to stabilize your life before getting married and having children. Rather, getting married is the first step for many in building a stable life and not getting married simply postpones this. You can see this in exremis in Japan where it is becoming typical for young people to live at home and spend their entire salary on fashion and entertainment.

This is the perpetual adolescence of modern society.

**But where would those Japanese young people live if they did get married? If they couldn’t possibly afford a home of their own (so they’d have to live with parents in a tiny apartment), or if marriage would mean a wife raising a family essentially alone during the week while her husband’s employer owned him body and soul, it’s easy to see why that isn’t a very attractive model for young people. **

This is the reason that I am disappointed with those who rest on traditinoalism. For most of human history, children just happened. Ideally they happened in marriage. But with the advent of contraceptives, children and sex are no longer inextricably linked.

Raising children is now a choice and almost all the voices are arrayed against that choice.

No, not at all.

At this point, middle class life is almost absurdly child-centered.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

With regard to parenting, I don’t know if there’s any work on parenting quality by parents of different ages, but I think removing unwed births is kind of a biggie, given that nearly half of all first babies are born to unwed mothers. It’s pretty much impossible to discuss childbearing in the US now without talking about that.

I agree that focusing only on childbearing in marriage removes a lot of problem situations but that is, I think appropriate. The ideal progression is: graduate, get married, have children. Having children out of wedlock is inherently problematic and I don’t mean to suggest that we should be so concerned with the fall in fertility that we entertain normalizing unwed childbearing.

But where would those Japanese young people live if they did get married? If they couldn’t possibly afford a home of their own (so they’d have to live with parents in a tiny apartment), or if marriage would mean a wife raising a family essentially alone during the week while her husband’s employer owned him body and soul, it’s easy to see why that isn’t a very attractive model for young people.

Living with the family of the husband or wife is certainly an appropriate choice for many reasons. Japan has some peculiar problems, I’ll grant, but we are seeing much the same elsewhere without that excuse. Young singles earning very comfortable incomes and living a life of leisure in city apartments.

No, not at all. At this point, middle class life is almost absurdly child-centered.

I guess I’ll just have to disagree here. Different people find different balances.

 

[JimG]

Well, here’s a book that clearly shows the downside of falling fertility rates.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Well, here’s a book that clearly shows the downside of falling fertility rates.

This is a good book but it is really a social focus. If everyone doesn’t have children, bad things happen.

But there is a case to be made for having children regardless of what others do or don’t do. Children bring joy and fulfillment, etc.

I have yet to find that book.

 

[Sarcelle]

This is a good book but it is really a social focus. If everyone doesn’t have children, bad things happen.

But there is a case to be made for having children regardless of what others do or don’t do. Children bring joy and fulfillment, etc.

I have yet to find that book.

Everyone should have children or bad things happen?

I don’t think the Church teaches that. If that were the case priests would be required to get married.

 

[JimG]

This is a good book but it is really a social focus. If everyone doesn’t have children, bad things happen.

But there is a case to be made for having children regardless of what others do or don’t do. Children bring joy and fulfillment, etc.

I have yet to find that book.

I see. You are looking for a book that will describe the joys of motherhood and fatherhood and big families. I don’t have a particular book in mind. I think that families themselves are that book. But I did enjoy reading Teresa Bloomindale’s books about her family with ten children, especially “I Should Have Seen It Coming When the Rabbit Died.” But they are out of print. You’ll have to find them at a used book store.

Edit–I found at least one link here.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Everyone should have children or bad things happen?

I don’t think the Church teaches that. If that were the case priests would be required to get married.

Let me rephrase: If nobody has children (if everybody choose not to have children, or, to be precise, if not enough children are had), bad things happen.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

This gets to a larger issue but it’s not clear to me that people who wait to have children are better parents than those who marry and have children earlier. I have never seen any statistical evidence for that after removing unwed births. People also delay marriage with the same explanation.

I would challenge the idea that you have to stabilize your life before getting married and having children. Rather, getting married is the first step for many in building a stable life and not getting married simply postpones this. You can see this in exremis in Japan where it is becoming typical for young people to live at home and spend their entire salary on fashion and entertainment.

I suppose this is the idea that one will rise to the occasion. But t problem is that some will find they really aren’t ready (mentally, emotionally ) for parenthood. Even on this forum, that by definition skews pro-children we have a few threads about those who feel their marriage or lives have been harmed by children. I suspect that in the past a great many just grit their teeth (evidenced in part by the current wave of “gray divorce”).

As stability, i guess it depends on philosophy. Imagine life is a building. In my previous post marriage is more of a capstone strengthing the building. In yours, it is the corner stone of which everything is built. I would personally feel irresponsible if I was to marry and father kids before stabilizing my life. That would mean bringing others I love (would love) into a situation I’m attempting to improve.

This is the reason that I am disappointed with those who rest on traditinoalism. For most of human history, children just happened. Ideally they happened in marriage. But with the advent of contraceptives, children and sex are no longer inextricably linked.

Raising children is now a choice and almost all the voices are arrayed against that choice.

Can you give good reasons to have children? As it is, my decision to father a child one day is lacking rational objective reasons in favor of offspring. They are all emotional or better yet an unexplainable powerful urge if that makes sense. I, and probably a great many others are not fond of making decisions about life itself without a more concrete reason.

I mean this is a decision that impacts those without a choice, those making the choice, reshapes families, and impacts neighborhoods and countries to a degree. “I let it happen.” or “I felt…” seem like an odd basis for children.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I see. You are looking for a book that will describe the joys of motherhood and fatherhood and big families. I don’t have a particular book in mind. I think that families themselves are that book. But I did enjoy reading Teresa Bloomindale’s books about her family with ten children, especially “I Should Have Seen It Coming When the Rabbit Died.” But they are out of print. You’ll have to find them at a used book store.

Edit–I found at least one link here.

Thank you, yes, you understand what I’m looking for and that book looks very promising. I agree that big families ought to be an argument for big families but you are probably aware that those who choose to have big families are more often held up for public ridicule.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t disagree but these are precisely the women that “Think Before You Breed” is aimed at. These women desire children and they are being told by their betters that they should not.

And you are right that the childbearing issues hinges partly on the marriage and relationship issue.

The problem for middle class women is that there is a lot of social pressure not to have kids before getting at least a BA, possibly a graduate degree of some kind, living on their own, having a serious boyfriend, living together a couple of years, marrying, having a reasonably good job, paying down their student loans, having an attractive home, being within striking distance of being able to buy a house, etc., etc., but at the same time, medically speaking, not a minute after 35, and socially, at roughly the same time as all their other friends are having kids (because it’s sad to have to stay home with the baby when your friends are out having a good time, but also sad to be left out of couple and mommy events when you don’t have a husband or children when everybody else does). That’s a really small window to hit, and obviously, it would be better to streamline the list.

Huge numbers of young people have been stuck living with their parents the last few years because of job and money issues.

Another issue is college debt. I was just talking to a mom friend who was lamenting the fact that her student loans are $600 a month. She said that she wished that somebody had been able to come back and tell her when she was running those up how rough it was going to be to pay them off as an SAHM with two kids.

I think one thing that parents can do is to make a strong effort to ensure that their growing kids understand money, are saving, and get through college with either no student loans or as little as possible. Large student loans both cramp family budgets but also preclude serious relationships if they are so frighteningly large that they run off romantic prospects. (I’m not quite there yet, but I think I will probably lean on my kids when they are in college to save at least $100 a month so that by the time college is over, they will have a small emergency fund.)

 

[JimG]

I suppose this is the idea that one will rise to the occasion. But t problem is that some will find they really aren’t ready (mentally, emotionally ) for parenthood. Even on this forum, that by definition skews pro-children we have a few threads about those who feel their marriage or lives have been harmed by children. I suspect that in the past a great many just grit their teeth (evidenced in part by the current wave of “gray divorce”).

As stability, i guess it depends on philosophy. Imagine life is a building. In my previous post marriage is more of a capstone strengthing the building. In yours, it is the corner stone of which everything is built. I would personally feel irresponsible if I was to marry and father kids before stabilizing my life. That would mean bringing others I love (would love) into a situation I’m attempting to improve.

Can you give good reasons to have children? As it is, my decision to father a child one day is lacking rational objective reasons in favor of offspring. They are all emotional or better yet an unexplainable powerful urge if that makes sense. I, and probably a great many others are not fond of making decisions about life itself without a more concrete reason.

I mean this is a decision that impacts those without a choice, those making the choice, reshapes families, and impacts neighborhoods and countries to a degree. “I let it happen.” or “I felt…” seem like an odd basis for children.

I understand what you mean, but overthinking the matter is part of the problem which leads ultimately to demographic downfall. This interview with Jonathan Last covers some of these same factors.

 

[pensmama87]

Everyone should have children or bad things happen?

I don’t think the Church teaches that. If that were the case priests would be required to get married.

I read it as, “If everyone doesn’t have children, bad things happen” as “if nobody has children, bad things happen,” rather than suggesting that everyone should have children.

I was actually having a conversation about this at a party last night with a few newer parents. The dad expressed shock at how much he had matured and grown up since having his daughter, and that he wished some of our other friends would hurry it up already (we have several mutual friends who are shacking up or not looking to settle down at all, and the oldest of our “group” are entering their thirties. All college-educated - most actually with graduate degrees, too - and gainfully employed. Unless there’s an expensive addiction or massive amounts of debt, they have the security they need and then some.) What’s absent is the emotional maturity, and what’s present is the idea that kids are just one choice out of many and they can come based on whim.

 

[Xantippe]

Living with the family of the husband or wife is certainly an appropriate choice for many reasons.

**I think that’s a really interpersonally dangerous situation, particularly for newlyweds. Especially in the US, I don’t think that a couple that can’t afford at least a studio apartment roof over their heads should get married (barring unusual circumstances).

**

Japan has some peculiar problems, I’ll grant, but we are seeing much the same elsewhere without that excuse. Young singles earning very comfortable incomes and living a life of leisure in city apartments.

**We’ve actually had a huge boom in young adults living at home in the US the last few years. Young adults in the US really are economically suffering, what with the dual pressure from student loans and underemployment. **

I guess I’ll just have to disagree here. Different people find different balances.

 

[Sarcelle]

I read it as, “If everyone doesn’t have children, bad things happen” as “if nobody has children, bad things happen,” rather than suggesting that everyone should have children.

I was actually having a conversation about this at a party last night with a few newer parents. The dad expressed shock at how much he had matured and grown up since having his daughter, and that he wished some of our other friends would hurry it up already (we have several mutual friends who are shacking up or not looking to settle down at all, and the oldest of our “group” are entering their thirties. All college-educated - most actually with graduate degrees, too - and gainfully employed. Unless there’s an expensive addiction or massive amounts of debt, they have the security they need and then some.) What’s absent is the emotional maturity, and what’s present is the idea that kids are just one choice out of many and they can come based on whim.

You mentioned emotional maturity.

Having children can serve as the catalyst for growth in maturity. Having a child does not automatically give someone a ticket to maturity.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I suppose this is the idea that one will rise to the occasion. But t problem is that some will find they really aren’t ready (mentally, emotionally ) for parenthood. Even on this forum, that by definition skews pro-children we have a few threads about those who feel their marriage or lives have been harmed by children. I suspect that in the past a great many just grit their teeth (evidenced in part by the current wave of “gray divorce”).

I must confess that I suspect divorce and annulment have influenced this debate grately. There seems to be this fear of failure and even the Church has bought into it to a degree. I do believe that people can rise to the occassion and that outside influences, e.g. the parish pastor, can aid this more than they do.

As stability, i guess it depends on philosophy. Imagine life is a building. In my previous post marriage is more of a capstone strengthing the building. In yours, it is the corner stone of which everything is built. I would personally feel irresponsible if I was to marry and father kids before stabilizing my life. That would mean bringing others I love (would love) into a situation I’m attempting to improve.

Yes, that’s a great metaphor that I’ve encontered before: capstone vs. cornerstone. I’m definitely a believer in the cornerstone approach to marriage and family.

Can you give good reasons to have children? As it is, my decision to father a child one day is lacking rational objective reasons in favor of offspring. They are all emotional or better yet an unexplainable powerful urge if that makes sense. I, and probably a great many others are not fond of making decisions about life itself without a more concrete reason.

I mean this is a decision that impacts those without a choice, those making the choice, reshapes families, and impacts neighborhoods and countries to a degree. “I let it happen.” or “I felt…” seem like an odd basis for children.

Easily. I did link some article in the third post that illustrate the idea but, basically, having children leads to a more fulfilling life. It is a project for the husband and wife to work on together giving more meaning to the marriage. It’s an opportunity to leave behind something of great value. Just as you learn much from marriage, so from raising a family.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I think that’s a really interpersonally dangerous situation, particularly for newlyweds. Especially in the US, I don’t think that a couple that can’t afford at least a studio apartment roof over their heads should get married (barring unusual circumstances). We’ve actually had a huge boom in young adults living at home in the US the last few years. Young adults in the US really are economically suffering, what with the dual pressure from student loans and underemployment.

I’m just saying, in the worst case that is an option. It might well be a good thing for people to learn to live again in extended family situations.