Think Before You Breed

[pensmama87]

You mentioned emotional maturity.

Having children can serve as the catalyst for growth in maturity. Having a child does not automatically give a ticket to maturity.

Yes, I agree with this, too.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I was actually having a conversation about this at a party last night with a few newer parents. The dad expressed shock at how much he had matured and grown up since having his daughter, and that he wished some of our other friends would hurry it up already (we have several mutual friends who are shacking up or not looking to settle down at all, and the oldest of our “group” are entering their thirties. All college-educated - most actually with graduate degrees, too - and gainfully employed. Unless there’s an expensive addiction or massive amounts of debt, they have the security they need and then some.) What’s absent is the emotional maturity, and what’s present is the idea that kids are just one choice out of many and they can come based on whim.

Precisely!

And it’s become a choice that is discouarged by the “smart people”, just look at the imbalance of books on the subject. At one time this was a feminist thing but it’s now become very general socially.

 

[Sarcelle]

I’m just saying, in the worst case that is an option. It might well be a good thing for people to learn to live again in extended family situations.

Yes.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m just saying, in the worst case that is an option. It might well be a good thing for people to learn to live again in extended family situations.

That has never been the mainstream US model, ever ever. So it’s not a question of learning “again” how to live in an extended family situation. I’ll add here that it’s different to a) bring an aged mother into an established middle aged couple’s home rather than b) to live as indigent and economically dependent newlyweds or new parents under a parental roof. There’s a special kind of dysfunction that blossoms in homes where a lot of people have to live with each other when there’s not a clear hierarchy and the people didn’t really choose each other, don’t want to live with each other, but can’t leave and are continually in each other’s business. Plus, living with in-laws has a way of stunting the growth of the new marital relationship because it’s often overshadowed by the existing parent-child relationship.

I’m freshly back from Thanksgiving get-togethers and lovely as everybody is in their various ways, man oh man, is it nice to be in my own house with my own husband and my own kids. I wouldn’t wish an involuntary extended family living situation on my worst enemy.

If my mom and I had to share a kitchen for more than a week, there would be no survivors.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

That has never been the mainstream US model, ever ever. So it’s not a question of learning “again” how to live in an extended family situation. I’ll add here that it’s different to a) bring an aged mother into an established middle aged couple’s home rather than b) to live as indigent and economically dependent newlyweds or new parents under a parental roof. There’s a special kind of dysfunction that blossoms in homes where a lot of people have to live with each other when there’s not a clear hierarchy and the people didn’t really choose each other, don’t want to live with each other, but can’t leave and are continually in each other’s business. Plus, living with in-laws has a way of stunting the growth of the new marital relationship because it’s often overshadowed by the existing parent-child relationship.

I’m freshly back from Thanksgiving get-togethers and lovely as everybody is in their various ways, man oh man, is it nice to be in my own house with my own husband and my own kids. I wouldn’t wish an involuntary extended family living situation on my worst enemy.

If my mom and I had to share a kitchen for more than a week, there would be no survivors.

pewsocialtrends.org/2010/03/18/the-return-of-the-multi-generational-family-household/

 

[Xantippe]

pewsocialtrends.org/2010/03/18/the-return-of-the-multi-generational-family-household/

50% more multigenerational homes now than in 1940 suggests that it’s not really the “return” of the multi-generational family.

 

[Xantippe]

I guess I’ll just have to disagree here. Different people find different balances.

Current middle class US culture is very kid-centered among people who have children. You buy your house in order to have your kids in a good school, your main social outlet may be created by kids’ birthdays, sports and school events and vast amounts of time and money are consumed by kids’ activities. School alone is capable of sucking up all of your free time and money if you let it.

It does raise the question, what happens to all of these parents once their kids are grown and gone?

 

[JimG]

Current middle class US culture is very kid-centered among people who have children. You buy your house in order to have your kids in a good school, your main social outlet may be created by kids’ birthdays, sports and school events and vast amounts of time and money are consumed by kids’ activities. School alone is capable of sucking up all of your free time and money if you let it.

It does raise the question, what happens to all of these parents once their kids are grown and gone?

Paradoxically, it may be that this very emphasis on kids is part of what discourages large families. When large families were common, parents actually spent less time with their kids than they do now. They were in the back yard playing, not being ferried about by parents to various kids functions. Spending less time with more kids is not such a bad thing.

 

[MJJean]

Current middle class US culture is very kid-centered among people who have children. You buy your house in order to have your kids in a good school, your main social outlet may be created by kids’ birthdays, sports and school events and vast amounts of time and money are consumed by kids’ activities. School alone is capable of sucking up all of your free time and money if you let it.

It does raise the question, what happens to all of these parents once their kids are grown and gone?

The parents either breathe a sigh of relief and divorce or live separate lives and hope for death as far as I can tell…

Paradoxically, it may be that this very emphasis on kids is part of what discourages large families. When large families were common, parents actually spent less time with their kids than they do now. They were in the back yard playing, not being ferried about by parents to various kids functions. Spending less time with more kids is not such a bad thing.

I think these things are part of the problem. There is this pervasive view that in order to have kids and be a proper parent you have to have a certain standard of living including spending an inordinate amount of time and money on sports and other activities. If we got back to parents kicking the kids outside to play with each other, spending more time together and less money, doing limited extra’s, and being willing to do things like live in smaller houses etc. we’d probably have more people willing to have babies.

When you are told by parents that it’s so hard and expensive to raise kids, that their marriages and personal lives suffer because everything revolves around the kids, and that they are miserable and tired … well, it’s hard to think that kind of life is what you want and easier to use contraception to prevent yourself from falling into a circle of Hell by reproducing.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

50% more multigenerational homes now than in 1940 suggests that it’s not really the “return” of the multi-generational family.

“In 1940, about a quarter of the population lived in one; by 1980, just 12% did.”

 

[Xantippe]

When you are told by parents that it’s so hard and expensive to raise kids, that their marriages and personal lives suffer because everything revolves around the kids, and that they are miserable and tired … well, it’s hard to think that kind of life is what you want and easier to use contraception to prevent yourself from falling into a circle of Hell by reproducing.

That talk is usually followed up by…“and when are you going to have kids?”

On the one hand, the current middle class model is hard on parents and it requires TWO engaged parents, but on the other hand, the results are pretty good. I don’t have time to look it up right now, but I believe underage drug use and sexual activity are both way down.

 

[QuasiCatholic]

Individual countries’ birth rates don’t matter as much as the global birth rate, which – as of 2012 at least – was 2.47 births per woman.

There are more than 7 billion people on earth. Which means there are probably about 3.5 billion women. And what? Maybe 2 billion of them are of childbearing age?

At 2.47 births per woman, you’re talking about replacing our current population and adding about 1 billion extra people in each generation.

That’s not exactly a small number.

Also, the birth rate in the U.S. has stayed basically flat since the 1970s. It was 1.87 in the late '80s and its 1.88 now.

 

[Xantippe]

Individual countries’ birth rates don’t matter as much as the global birth rate, which – as of 2012 at least – was 2.47 births per woman.

There are more than 7 billion people on earth. Which means there are probably about 3.5 billion women. And what? Maybe 2 billion of them are of childbearing age?

At 2.47 births per woman, you’re talking about replacing our current population and adding about 1 billion extra people in each generation.

That’s not exactly a small number.

Also, the birth rate in the U.S. has stayed basically flat since the 1970s. It was 1.87 in the late '80s and its 1.88 now.

That last line is surprising but correct. See the chart here on "Birth Rates, 1920-2010):

pewsocialtrends.org/2012/11/29/u-s-birth-rate-falls-to-a-record-low-decline-is-greatest-among-immigrants/

Viewed from a distance, the US birth rate really has been very flat for the past 40+ years.

 

[faith_always]

Question…

I’m a 21 year old Catholic student. I’m single and busy with school right now. However I think maybe I’m being called to marriage someday. I’m very hesitant to reproduce due to mental illness and addiction being present from both mom and dad’s side of the family. What if I got married someday and adopted? But then there’s the issue of preventatives and sex and what not. Just curious on others thoughts- thanks.

 

[bisco]

you wouldn’t be called to marriage, unless you were called to procreate. that is the primary reason.

 

[Xantippe]

you wouldn’t be called to marriage, unless you were called to procreate. that is the primary reason.

But there might be medical conditions where it would be reasonable to say, if XYZ resolves or if a cure is found for XYZ, then we will try to have kids, but until then, we need to wait.

“Called to procreate” doesn’t need to mean called to procreate right now.

 

[faith_always]

I’ve just always dreamed about being married someday and I also love kids. I would be hesitant to adopt as a single parent, unless I was really financially secure. I am genuinely concerned about the… defective gene… issue. I suppose I will just continue to seek guidance… go to church, school, volunteer…and pray.

 

[thewanderer]

Individual countries’ birth rates don’t matter as much as the global birth rate, which – as of 2012 at least – was 2.47 births per woman.

There are more than 7 billion people on earth. Which means there are probably about 3.5 billion women. And what? Maybe 2 billion of them are of childbearing age?

At 2.47 births per woman, you’re talking about replacing our current population and adding about 1 billion extra people in each generation.

That’s not exactly a small number.

Also, the birth rate in the U.S. has stayed basically flat since the 1970s. It was 1.87 in the late '80s and its 1.88 now.

Individual countries fertility rates matter very much to the people living in that particular country. When the people in a particular country suffer because of the effects of a qui kly declining fertility rate on their economy would you really say their suffering is irrelevant?

 

[Xantippe]

I’ve just always dreamed about being married someday and I also love kids. I would be hesitant to adopt as a single parent, unless I was really financially secure. I am genuinely concerned about the… defective gene… issue. I suppose I will just continue to seek guidance… go to church, school, volunteer…and pray.

Just about everybody you know has some sort of oddity in their genetic history and mental illness is actually quite common.

abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/01/19/1-in-5-americans-suffer-from-mental-illness/

That’s a good news/bad news thing–on the one hand, your particular risks may not be as bad as you think they are, but at the same time, the overall risk is pretty high that in any family of say 5 kids there will be one kid with a serious condition of some kind. (For instance, within the autism community, it isn’t uncommon to run across people who have three autism spectrum children.)

It would be an awful thing to leave the love of your life over this issue, but speaking purely from a genetic perspective, there might be some protection in just steering away from prospective spouses whose family issues are identical to yours. Also, genetic counseling may give you some perspective on your risks.

Also, the medical treatments available are only going to get better as time goes on.

 

[faith_always]

very interesting…

thanks for the link and also for the insight