Thinking Differently, but staying in the Church?

[jinc1019]

I know I have posted on this subject before, but I came across something today that has me thinking about this topic again.

I have, after a great deal of study, come to the conclusion that papal infallibility is simply not true.

Now, I have always been under the impression that based on my belief about papal infallibility, I cannot accept the Eucharist or any of the sacraments (except penance). Is this accurate?

I want to be clear, it’s not that I am unsure of the teaching about papal infallibility. I am not questioning it, or wondering, or unsure; I am certain that it is not true.

The reason I am asking is because I was told today, by a very devout Catholic, that my conception of this is all wrong. He said that as long as I follow the teachings of the Church, I can be in good standing. I don’t need to privately believe in all of the teachings, I just can’t actively promote opposite views or engage in behavior forbidden by the Church.

I have spoken to two deacons about this. One said as long as I believe in the fundamental teachings of the Church, the creeds, etc…I am fine. Another said that I must accept all of the teachings.

Can someone please post a source, or opinion, on this issue? An official Catholic teaching on this is what I am looking for.

From what I have read in the CCC, it seems as though my original idea that I must personally believe in the teaching itself is required. Submission to the Catholic Church in action alone isn’t enough.

Thanks for your help in advance!

Justin

 

[snarflemike]

I don’t have an answer to your question, but allow me to ask another. Why would you want to stay in a Church that got doctrine wrong? You say you are looking for official Church teaching on this subject, but if the Church got papal infallibility wrong, maybe they got the official Church teaching on this subject wrong too, so what good is it to even ask for an official Church teaching? Maybe they got teachings that you agree with wrong too. I ask in all charity, why would you want to stay in a Church that got some things right and some things wrong? What’s the attraction?

 

[jonathan_hili]

Hi Justin,

I can sympathise with your concerns as papal infallibility is very difficult to swallow, as least on the face of it.

However, if you believe the Catholic Church is God’s Church, the Church founded by Christ, and hold to the essential doctrines of the faith, I would invite you to consider whether you might be wrong on papal infallibility.

I mean, if the Church got everything else right, how could she get papal infallibility wrong?

Furthermore, when you say you are “certain” papal infallibility is not true, is this a moral certainty or an absolute certainty?

God bless.

Jonathan

 

[jinc1019]

I don’t have an answer to your question, but allow me to ask another. Why would you want to stay in a Church that got doctrine wrong? You say you are looking for official Church teaching on this subject, but if the Church got papal infallibility wrong, maybe they got the official Church teaching on this subject wrong too, so what good is it to even ask for an official Church teaching? Maybe they got teachings that you agree with wrong too. I ask in all charity, why would you want to stay in a Church that got some things right and some things wrong? What’s the attraction?

Where else would I go? I have examined all of the major denominations in America and none of them are perfect…The Catholic Church is closer than many.

 

[jinc1019]

Hi Justin,

I can sympathise with your concerns as papal infallibility is very difficult to swallow, as least on the face of it.

However, if you believe the Catholic Church is God’s Church, the Church founded by Christ, and hold to the essential doctrines of the faith, I would invite you to consider whether you might be wrong on papal infallibility.

I mean, if the Church got everything else right, how could she get papal infallibility wrong?

Furthermore, when you say you are “certain” papal infallibility is not true, is this a moral certainty or an absolute certainty?

God bless.

Jonathan

I appreciate the inquiry Jonathan. To answer your question, it’s probably closer to a moral certainty. In either case, it is a firm belief I have for specific historical and theological reasons, not simply a feeling.

You make a good point about the Church getting everything else right. Truthfully, I don’t believe they have had everything else right. Most of the major things, yes…but some of the minor ones…No. For instance, I think the evidence is very strong that bishops and priests are one order, not two. Even St. Jerome, a Catholic saint, agrees with this point in his Epistle 146. Is this a make or break issue though? No. But infallibility is, at least for the Church. I am willing to stay despite the belief, but the Church isn’t willing (I don’t think, which is why I posted this question) to allow me to participate as a full member because of it.

 

[PetiteFoi]

I don’t have an answer to your question, but allow me to ask another. Why would you want to stay in a Church that got doctrine wrong? You say you are looking for official Church teaching on this subject, but if the Church got papal infallibility wrong, maybe they got the official Church teaching on this subject wrong too, so what good is it to even ask for an official Church teaching? Maybe they got teachings that you agree with wrong too. I ask in all charity, why would you want to stay in a Church that got some things right and some things wrong? What’s the attraction?

I’m with Justin on this one.
I have been all over Christian churches, from evangelical charismatic, to united, to reformed. Never have I fully 100% accepted the churches doctrine.
Also like Justin I have issue with some beliefs of the Catholic church, (perpetual virginity of mary to name one) but I don’t believe that means I cannot be a Catholic, or that I should take myself elsewhere…

~ PetiteFoi

 

[Corki]

You can come to the conclusion that papal infalibility is wrong. As long as you admit the possiblitly that you are wrong and the Church is right and continue to try to resolve the conflict, you are probably not committing *grave sin *as long as you are not making public statements about it.

At the point where you stop seeking a resolution and take a position of what the Church calls obstinant rejection of the teaching, you will have placed yourself out of full communion with the Church.

From what I have read in the CCC, it seems as though my original idea that I must personally believe in the teaching itself is required. Submission to the Catholic Church in action alone isn’t enough.

Assent to Church teaching is required in order to be a faithfully practicing Catholic.

 

[bzkoss236]

When I started coming back to the Church, I didn’t understand papal infallibility at all and didn’t really accept it. It wasn’t until I really delved in and learned how it works, the requirements of what is considered infallible, that I understood how the Holy Spirit works through the Pope to make something he declares to be infallible.

Not to sound like I’m attacking you, but I do have to say that anyone who denies papal infallibility doesn’t do so by knowledge of it in its entirety who are then ‘certain’ of it being incorrect, but out of ignorance. Like people who think, or thought, the Earth is flat. So, I think you just don’t completely understand what it is and how it works and I would encourage you, that even though you feel certain that it is false, that you continue to study tirelessly, for if you recognize the Catholic Church as the one true Church of Christ, and you believe what it teaches to be true (maybe with a few exceptions), that you should want to understand Her teaching inside and out and backwards. Then and only then do you have the ability to be ‘certain’ of anything. If my Church teaches something that I don’t understand, then I wouldn’t be comfortable being in that Church until I understood its teaching. Because if the Church is true, then I must be wrong.

Just my opinion.

And something to think about, if you don’t think that the Church’s teachings are true, then why are you Catholic?
I’m not saying that you should leave, but just evaluate your reasons.

 

[berk60]

Where else would I go? I have examined all of the major denominations in America and none of them are perfect…The Catholic Church is closer than many.

I know when I am face with any uncertainty on a religious matter I find comfort in Gods promises.

Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; *and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:6,7

 

[jonathan_hili]

I appreciate the inquiry Jonathan. To answer your question, it’s probably closer to a moral certainty. In either case, it is a firm belief I have for specific historical and theological reasons, not simply a feeling.

You make a good point about the Church getting everything else right. Truthfully, I don’t believe they have had everything else right. Most of the major things, yes…but some of the minor ones…No. For instance, I think the evidence is very strong that bishops and priests are one order, not two. Even St. Jerome, a Catholic saint, agrees with this point in his Epistle 146. Is this a make or break issue though? No. But infallibility is, at least for the Church. I am willing to stay despite the belief, but the Church isn’t willing (I don’t think, which is why I posted this question) to allow me to participate as a full member because of it.

Well, I think you need to be honest with what you believe. I wouldn’t ditch the Church on a moral certainty. If great minds like Ratzinger and JPII can agree with papal infallibility (which, as far as I see it, is hardly an extraordinary belief - I mean, if you can swallow the Resurrection, what’s papal infallibility?), I’d suggest continue to pursue the matter in prayer. Just because you question the doctrine it doesn’t mean you deny the truth of the Church, that is, if you’re open to changing your mind.

 

[fbl9]

I know I have posted on this subject before, but I came across something today that has me thinking about this topic again.

I have, after a great deal of study, come to the conclusion that papal infallibility is simply not true.

Now, I have always been under the impression that based on my belief about papal infallibility, I cannot accept the Eucharist or any of the sacraments (except penance). Is this accurate?

I want to be clear, it’s not that I am unsure of the teaching about papal infallibility. I am not questioning it, or wondering, or unsure; I am certain that it is not true.

The reason I am asking is because I was told today, by a very devout Catholic, that my conception of this is all wrong. He said that as long as I follow the teachings of the Church, I can be in good standing. I don’t need to privately believe in all of the teachings, I just can’t actively promote opposite views or engage in behavior forbidden by the Church.

I have spoken to two deacons about this. One said as long as I believe in the fundamental teachings of the Church, the creeds, etc…I am fine. Another said that I must accept all of the teachings.

Can someone please post a source, or opinion, on this issue? An official Catholic teaching on this is what I am looking for.

From what I have read in the CCC, it seems as though my original idea that I must personally believe in the teaching itself is required. Submission to the Catholic Church in action alone isn’t enough.

Thanks for your help in advance!

Justin

consider what your devot friend told you. are you following the Church’s teachings? No, because as you state the Church is wrong about papal infalliabilty.

As a catholic there is no sin in not receiving the Eucharist, but there is sin in not attending the Mass.
And if you really want to be picky, you are no longer being private in your beliefs, as this is a public forum.…in this post though you are promoting this as a belief for all.

 

[owensjo]

I’m with Justin on this one.
I have been all over Christian churches, from evangelical charismatic, to united, to reformed. Never have I fully 100% accepted the churches doctrine.
Also like Justin I have issue with some beliefs of the Catholic church, (perpetual virginity of mary to name one) but I don’t believe that means I cannot be a Catholic, or that I should take myself elsewhere…

~ PetiteFoi

If you don’t believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, as well as other tenets of the Catholic faith, then no, you are not Catholic.

 

[jinc1019]

I’m with Justin on this one.
I have been all over Christian churches, from evangelical charismatic, to united, to reformed. Never have I fully 100% accepted the churches doctrine.
Also like Justin I have issue with some beliefs of the Catholic church, (perpetual virginity of mary to name one) but I don’t believe that means I cannot be a Catholic, or that I should take myself elsewhere…

~ PetiteFoi

I am glad to hear someone sympathizing with my position. I agree with you on the issue of perpetual virginity by the way…

At any rate, I understand the Catholic Church has the right to choose what its members must believe, but I obviously wish their policies on these issues would be different.

 

[jinc1019]

I know when I am face with any uncertainty on a religious matter I find comfort in Gods promises.

Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; *and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:6,7

I appreciate the kind advice, I will certainly take it to heart!

 

[TimothyH]

I know I have posted on this subject before, but I came across something today that has me thinking about this topic again.

I have, after a great deal of study, come to the conclusion that papal infallibility is simply not true.

Now, I have always been under the impression that based on my belief about papal infallibility, I cannot accept the Eucharist or any of the sacraments (except penance). Is this accurate?

I want to be clear, it’s not that I am unsure of the teaching about papal infallibility. I am not questioning it, or wondering, or unsure; I am certain that it is not true.

The reason I am asking is because I was told today, by a very devout Catholic, that my conception of this is all wrong. He said that as long as I follow the teachings of the Church, I can be in good standing. I don’t need to privately believe in all of the teachings, I just can’t actively promote opposite views or engage in behavior forbidden by the Church.

I have spoken to two deacons about this. One said as long as I believe in the fundamental teachings of the Church, the creeds, etc…I am fine. Another said that I must accept all of the teachings.

Can someone please post a source, or opinion, on this issue? An official Catholic teaching on this is what I am looking for.

From what I have read in the CCC, it seems as though my original idea that I must personally believe in the teaching itself is required. Submission to the Catholic Church in action alone isn’t enough.

Thanks for your help in advance!

Justin

Papal infallibility is a fundamental teaching of the Church. It is dogma. You must choose to believe what the Church proposes for your belief - that is the theological virtue of faith.

CCC 1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself.

Papal infallibility is dogma. You must change your belief to conform to Church teaching in spite of your reasearch. You must decide to believe.

-Tim-

 

[jinc1019]

Well, I think you need to be honest with what you believe. I wouldn’t ditch the Church on a moral certainty. If great minds like Ratzinger and JPII can agree with papal infallibility (which, as far as I see it, is hardly an extraordinary belief - I mean, if you can swallow the Resurrection, what’s papal infallibility?), I’d suggest continue to pursue the matter in prayer. Just because you question the doctrine it doesn’t mean you deny the truth of the Church, that is, if you’re open to changing your mind.

I appreciate the advice. I have learned long ago in this process (before I was a Christian at all) that keeping my mind open is essential to discovering the truth. However, my question still remains…if this is what I believe, am I allowed to be a member of the Church or not?

 

[jinc1019]

You can come to the conclusion that papal infalibility is wrong. As long as you admit the possiblitly that you are wrong and the Church is right and continue to try to resolve the conflict, you are probably not committing *grave sin *as long as you are not making public statements about it.

At the point where you stop seeking a resolution and take a position of what the Church calls obstinant rejection of the teaching, you will have placed yourself out of full communion with the Church.

Assent to Church teaching is required in order to be a faithfully practicing Catholic.

Thanks for the information. However, I am still left with a lot of questions you may be able to clarify. You say assent to Church teaching is required, but I am not “assenting” to it. I don’t believe it. Doesn’t that mean I cannot receive most of the sacraments?

I have heard many of the Church’s arguments in favor of it, including from some of the best modern apologists, and I just do not believe the evidence lines up with their conclusions.

 

[PetiteFoi]

If you don’t believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, as well as other tenets of the Catholic faith, then no, you are not Catholic.

wow - wanna judge my salvation while you’re on a roll?

 

[jinc1019]

When I started coming back to the Church, I didn’t understand papal infallibility at all and didn’t really accept it. It wasn’t until I really delved in and learned how it works, the requirements of what is considered infallible, that I understood how the Holy Spirit works through the Pope to make something he declares to be infallible.

Not to sound like I’m attacking you, but I do have to say that anyone who denies papal infallibility doesn’t do so by knowledge of it in its entirety who are then ‘certain’ of it being incorrect, but out of ignorance. Like people who think, or thought, the Earth is flat. So, I think you just don’t completely understand what it is and how it works and I would encourage you, that even though you feel certain that it is false, that you continue to study tirelessly, for if you recognize the Catholic Church as the one true Church of Christ, and you believe what it teaches to be true (maybe with a few exceptions), that you should want to understand Her teaching inside and out and backwards. Then and only then do you have the ability to be ‘certain’ of anything. If my Church teaches something that I don’t understand, then I wouldn’t be comfortable being in that Church until I understood its teaching. Because if the Church is true, then I must be wrong.

Just my opinion.

And something to think about, if you don’t think that the Church’s teachings are true, then why are you Catholic?
I’m not saying that you should leave, but just evaluate your reasons.

I appreciate all of the information and for your opinion. No need to apologize for it; it’s why I asked. I believe I have answered your question already, but just to make myself clear…I believe that all churches have at least one important teaching wrong. I believe in the importance of the sacraments, which rules out most churches as it is…and I reject double predestination, among other Calvinist teachings, so there really are not a whole lot of other Christian churches left. By the time you weed out the churches which have gone off the deep end in the last fifty years, theologically speaking, there are even less churches available. Generally speaking, I believe the most important thing in a church is that it is as close to the teachings of the apostles as possible. Given my options, the Catholic Church is one of the closest and possibly the closest church to those teachings, even if some of it is not right, in my opinion of course. Where else do I go? That’s the whole point.

 

[guanophore]

Where else would I go? I have examined all of the major denominations in America and none of them are perfect…The Catholic Church is closer than many.

I have several ideas about where you could go, but I will focus instead on the reasons for your choice to stay. Basically you seem to be making this choice based upon your own investigations and standards of perfection. You have made yourself the moral standard by which “all of the major denominations” should be measured.

Here is a document on conscience you might find helpful.

What we are called upon to do, as Catholics, is called “the obedience of faith”. That means that we will obey the Teachings of the Church as they are from Christ Himself. We may not be pursuaded about the doctrines, but we make a conscious and willful decision to obey in spite of our lack of conviction. We say, as Thomas did “Lord, help my unbelief!”.

1. By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God. With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation, “the obedience of faith.”
2. To obey . . . in faith is to submit freely to the word that has been heard, because its truth is guaranteed by God, who is Truth itself . . . Abraham is the model of such obedience offered us by Sacred Scripture. The Virgin Mary is its most perfect embodiment. (Emphasis in original)

Here is an interesting article with a lot of good references to the official documents that might help you understand what “religious submission of will and intellect” means. It sounds from your post like you are suffering from what is defined in the Catechism as heresy.

It appears to emanate from a state of hubris, which is common to humankind.