This is Islam

[deen]

dennisknapp:

To the Muslims on this thread:

What is the nature of the Qur’an?

Peace

The Noble Qur’an -Part 2/2

All the Prophets and Messengers brought miracles from God that clearly demonstrated the truthfulness of their claim to Prophethood. Abraham survived being thrown into a blazing fire without being harmed. Moses raised his staff and the sea parted for him by God’s mercy. Jesus, the son of Mary, touched the dead and terminally ill and restored them to life and full health by the permission of God. All of these miracles revealed the legitimacy and validity of the Prophets and Messengers, but these miracles could only be witnessed by the people who were actually there at that time.

While the Prophethood of Muhammad was similarly attested to by various miraculous occurrences, by far the most important of all is the Glorious Qur’an. God challenges all those who doubt the authenticity of the Qur’an to produce a single chapter similar to a chapter of the Qur’an. (It should be pointed out that the smallest chapter of the Qur’an is composed of just three short verses.) This has never been accomplished though there have been many people throughout history who would have loved to discredit the Qur’an and do away with Islam. God’s challenge remains open until the Day of Judgment. One of the Qur’an’s miracles is that it is the pinnacle of literary excellence. It is the most eloquent Arabic prose in existence. It has a style like no other work in the Arabic language, a style that is inimitable. The Qur’an is for all people and is available to us in its original, living language, Arabic, which is still greatly used throughout the world by millions of people. The original texts of many other religious books have been lost over time and were originally written in languages that are no longer commonly spoken.

Not a single word in the Qur’an is the word of Muhammad, but all are the words of God. Muhammad actually did not know how to read or write. He recited the Qur’an precisely as it was revealed to him by the angel Gabriel, while his companions, at his direction, recorded it in writing and memorized it. The Qur’an is the direct word of God. Therefore, the Qur’an is the only book we have today that is known to be authored by God alone. There are no other versions of the Qur’an. Although there are many translations of the meaning of the Qur’an, they are not nearly as magnificent and beautiful as the Qur’an’s plain Arabic text. Here is a sample of the Qur’an, chapter 112 of the English translation of it’s meaning:

“In the name of God, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

1. Say: He is God, The One and Only;
2. God, The Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begets not, nor was He begotten;
4. And there is none comparable unto Him.”

ref: Islam Is by Pete Seda

 

[deen]

Faith101:

I attended an islamic lecture once by a man who graduated from a well known school in medina…i dont know his source, but this is what he said

THere are more women in hell. There are also **more women in heaven. **

Assalamu Alaykum,

That seems to be logical! Jazak Allahu khairan.

wa salaam,

deen

 

[dennisknapp]

The Noble Qur’an -Part 2/2

All the Prophets and Messengers brought miracles from God that clearly demonstrated the truthfulness of their claim to Prophethood. Abraham survived being thrown into a blazing fire without being harmed. Moses raised his staff and the sea parted for him by God’s mercy. Jesus, the son of Mary, touched the dead and terminally ill and restored them to life and full health by the permission of God. All of these miracles revealed the legitimacy and validity of the Prophets and Messengers, but these miracles could only be witnessed by the people who were actually there at that time.

While the Prophethood of Muhammad was similarly attested to by various miraculous occurrences, by far the most important of all is the Glorious Qur’an. God challenges all those who doubt the authenticity of the Qur’an to produce a single chapter similar to a chapter of the Qur’an. (It should be pointed out that the smallest chapter of the Qur’an is composed of just three short verses.) This has never been accomplished though there have been many people throughout history who would have loved to discredit the Qur’an and do away with Islam. God’s challenge remains open until the Day of Judgment. One of the Qur’an’s miracles is that it is the pinnacle of literary excellence. It is the most eloquent Arabic prose in existence. It has a style like no other work in the Arabic language, a style that is inimitable. The Qur’an is for all people and is available to us in its original, living language, Arabic, which is still greatly used throughout the world by millions of people. The original texts of many other religious books have been lost over time and were originally written in languages that are no longer commonly spoken.

Not a single word in the Qur’an is the word of Muhammad, but all are the words of God. Muhammad actually did not know how to read or write. He recited the Qur’an precisely as it was revealed to him by the angel Gabriel, while his companions, at his direction, recorded it in writing and memorized it. The Qur’an is the direct word of God. Therefore, the Qur’an is the only book we have today that is known to be authored by God alone. There are no other versions of the Qur’an. Although there are many translations of the meaning of the Qur’an, they are not nearly as magnificent and beautiful as the Qur’an’s plain Arabic text. Here is a sample of the Qur’an, chapter 112 of the English translation of it’s meaning:

“In the name of God, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

1. Say: He is God, The One and Only;
2. God, The Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begets not, nor was He begotten;
4. And there is none comparable unto Him.”

ref: Islam Is by Pete Seda

Is the Qur’an eternal?

Peace

 

[Deus_Vult]

The Noble Qur’an -Part 2/2

Not a single word in the Qur’an is the word of Muhammad, but all are the words of God. Muhammad actually did not know how to read or write. He recited the Qur’an precisely as it was revealed to him by the angel Gabriel, while his companions, at his direction, recorded it in writing and memorized it. The Qur’an is the direct word of God. ref: Islam Is by Pete Seda

Very interesting…I am reminded of a similar claim…Where Joseph Smith was said to have been visited by the Angel Moroni and he was said to have been told about the Nephite record, its contents, and the interpreters buried with it, Joseph saw in vision their location in the hill Cumorah. Moroni warned Joseph not to show the plates or the interpreters to anyone except those whom the Lord designated. (Mormon Church)

**1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.’’ **

To recognize false prophets we must heed the above verse and “prove all things.” One does not arrive at being an overcomer until he first learns the all important lesson of testing or “proving” the issues of this life. In the hour that we live there are so many things that are false and evil. We must be constantly on guard and “prove” or test things, lest we become ensnared by something that is wicked. Cults are spreading. Eastern idolatrous religions are creeping into our country in very subtle forms, and many Christians are being deceived and have accepted their practices without even being aware of their evil. Some religious groups have existed for years under the guise of Christianity, and yet are far from the teachings of Jesus Christ. The Lord warns us of these false teachers and tells us to beware of them.

Looking at Matthew 7:15-23, we find Jesus gives us the guideline for determining false prophets:

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

 

[mike182d]

Irenicist:

I see that you consider death and taxes not only inevitable but interchangeable.

In America? Absolutely. They’ll even try to tax you after you’re dead

 

[mike182d]

deen:

Muslims go to war to defend themselves or to free people who are being oppressed. The non-Muslims, whether in war time or not are INVITED not FORCED, from the worship of the creation to the worship of The Creator.

Who in Spain was being oppressed or had attacked Muslims? Did the whole of Asia Minor oppress Muslims or try to attack them? The first millenia of Islamic war was about conquest. Otherwise, why would Muhammed have sought expansion after “liberating” Mecca? Muhammed didn’t take a walking stick to try to evangelize the truth of Islam to the rest of the world; he created a military powerhouse.

What historical evidence do you have that any of the battles and wars Muhammed and Abu Bakr involved themselves in were in defense or to free oppressed peoples? I have a hard time finding any accurate resources apart from mere conjecture by proponents.

 

[deen]

Deus Vult:

Very interesting…I am reminded of a similar claim…Where Joseph Smith was said to have been visited by the Angel Moroni and he was said to have been told about the Nephite record, its contents, and the interpreters buried with it, Joseph saw in vision their location in the hill Cumorah. Moroni warned Joseph not to show the plates or the interpreters to anyone except those whom the Lord designated. (Mormon Church)

Why don’t you take the challenge of the Qur’an so you can prove clearly if it is from God or not? The problem is …do you know arabic?

peace,

deen

 

[Brad]

Ahimsa:

All I can suggest is (1) read commentaries of the Qur’an (since you weren’t there when it was written); and (2) biographies of Muhammad from a Muslim perspective.

Were the commentaries written at the time it was written? How about the biographies?

Which commentary must a Musllim read so that he/she does not believe this verse means you should attack unbelievers? What if they do not have that commentary?

No verses in the New Testament could be construed that Christians should take violence to non-believers.

 

[Irenicist]

deen:

Why don’t you take the challenge of the Qur’an so you can prove clearly if it is from God or not? The problem is …do you know arabic?

peace,

deen

There are millions of well educated Arabic-speaking Christians. The argument hasn’t convinced them because no Muslim is ever going to admit that a verse can be textually improved, for fear of blaspheming.

Irenicist

 

[Brad]

Irenicist:

Ok, I see what he is getting at. It’s misleading, however. In the 7th century most Christians did not live in Egypt, Palestine, Syria or North Africa, nor were these “the core of the Christian world”. You could make the argument that by virtue of conquering a lot of empty desert, two thirds of the surface area of the formerly Christian world was in Muslim hands, but this would no longer have been true when the Turks conquered Asia Minor as the Slavs had by then been converted.

This is just playing with statistics to overstate a point.

Irenicist

The conquering part is not misleading.

 

[Brad]

Irenicist:

Who ever claimed Muslims didn’t conquer Christian lands? Are we talking past each other?

It’s conversion by pressure, certainly, but not by force or violence.

That’s a more legitimate question. My understanding is that Islam allows for the conquest of lands where the practice of Islam is forbidden, but I could be wrong. I think you might be on stronger grounds questioning why Muslim lands were so frequently at war with each other if Islam is a religion of peace. But then the same question could be asked of Christians.

Irenicist

Ok. Let’s summarize, using what you agree with.

Muslims conquered Christian areas. This implies they killed Christians for the purpose of conquering. Muslims then subjugated non-Muslims by making them essentially slaves if they did not convert. Muslims did not force Christians to convert but killing them and enslaving them were ok alternatives. Amazingly enough, most in the conquered countries converted rather than face death of enslavement for life.

I don’t think I need to get on stronger grounds to make the argument that Islam is not historically a religion of peace and the reason is that many Muslims followed non-peaceful teaching in the Quran. The Catholic Christian Church has no such non-peaceful and conquering teachings and a long history of peaceful conversion and conversion through true martyrdom.

 

[Brad]

Irenicist:

It’s conversion by pressure, certainly, but not by force or violence.

Last I checked, conquest/pressure (aside from some very rare exceptions) involves violence.

 

[Brad]

Irenicist:

I see that you consider death and taxes not only inevitable but interchangeable.

The fact of the matter is that Islam offered conquered Christians a real choice. It might not have been a fair or generous one, but the choice of those Christians who chose to remain Christian was respected. They weren’t made to sacrifice to Caesar or thrown to the lions, nor were they threatened with execution if they did not convert. This was almost invariably a more generous deal than that offered to Muslims in Christian lands. Yes, Saudi Arabia does not allow non-Muslim worship on its soil. But it is unique and anomalous that way.

Irenicist

??? Have you seen how Christians are treated in Muslim countries and Muslims are treated in Christian countries today?

What are all these examples of persecuted Muslims in Christian lands?

How can you say that conquest did not involve death of Christians - that is a good deal? Subjugation for life is a good deal?

 

[Brad]

Contarini:

Brad,

Paying taxes is not slavery–or if it is, then we are all slaves! Non-Muslims were not necessarily treated worse than they had been by their previous rulers (Christian Roman or Zoroastrian Persian).

Humiliation and total submission is slavery. Applying worldwide Koranic law is slavery:

hvk.org/hvk/articles/1102/7.html

 

[Contarini]

dennisknapp:

Is the Qur’an eternal?

Peace

This was one of the classic theological debates within Islam. I think the supporters of the Qur’an’s eternity won, but the Muslims here can correct me.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Brad:

Humiliation and total submission is slavery. Applying worldwide Koranic law is slavery:

Why was it “slavery” to be made to submit to the Islamic regime but not to the Byzantine or Sassanid regimes? On what basis do you claim that Qur’anic law made slaves of those submitted to it, whereas the Code of Justinian did not? You have to look at this in context. To make your case you’ll have to show that the average Copt in Egypt, for instance, enjoyed more freedoms before than after the Islamic conquest. Otherwise your use of the word “slavery” is meaningless. If they were already “slaves” by your definition then why condemn Islam? And no, I’m not going to take up the burden of proof. I’m following the common scholarly consensus here (see Marshall Hodgson’s The Venture of Islam, vol. 1, which claims that Islamic rule was in many ways fairer and less oppressive than Byzantine or Sassanid rule). You are challenging it. The burden of proof is squarely on you.

Edwin

 

[Irenicist]

??? Have you seen how Christians are treated in Muslim countries and Muslims are treated in Christian countries today?

What are all these examples of persecuted Muslims in Christian lands?

How can you say that conquest did not involve death of Christians - that is a good deal? Subjugation for life is a good deal?

Get a grip! We aren’t talking about “today”. We are talking about the Middle Ages.

The laws concerning the practice of Islam in Christian lands then were essentially the mirror image of the current laws in Saudi Arabia. The penalty for conversion to Islam was death.

You are the one claiming that Islam forced conversions. It’s up to you to demonstrate that there was greater religious freedom in Christian Europe at that time period than there was in areas under Islamic rule. You are making unfounded accusations, and when these are challenged you throw in complete non sequiturs such as conquests involving death of Christians and the undesirability of subjection. No one here has suggested that Muslims did not conquer formerly Christian areas, that wars did not result in death, that Christians were better off under Muslim than under Christian rule, or that there wasn’t pressure put on Christians to convert.

The fact of the matter is that your charge that Muslims forced conversions is flatly untrue. The practice of Christianity was allowed under Muslim rule, and still is in every Muslim country except Saudi Arabia.

Irenicist

 

[mike182d]

Irenicist:

The laws concerning the practice of Islam in Christian lands then were essentially the mirror image of the current laws in Saudi Arabia.

Within 30 years of its beginning, Islam was invading Christian lands. As there were no Muslims in existence prior, this begs the question: were the laws regarding Muslims due to religious intolerance on behalf of the Christians, or was it in direct response to the rising aggression and the threat of being conquered?

My hunch, is that the situation is similar to our round-up of the Japanese here in America during WWII.

The reason being is that Jews did not suffer similar persecution during this time. Granted, during the Crusades, Jews were affected but this was because of an over-zealous, and very ignorant laity that went out of control - there are many stories of Bishops having to hide Jews in their cathedrals during raids in Germany by such Crusaders.

 

[mike182d]

Irenicist:

The fact of the matter is that your charge that Muslims forced conversions is flatly untrue. The practice of Christianity was allowed under Muslim rule, and still is in every Muslim country except Saudi Arabia.

Consider cigarette smoking in America. Is it allowed? Technically, yes. Are smokers being forced to quit by the government? I think if someone were to respond “yes” that they have a legitimate argument. The reason being is that state governments around the U.S. have banned smoking virtually everywhere and taxed the sale of cigarettes to ludicrous, and unjust proportions. Is anyone holding a gun to a smoker’s head telling them not to smoke? No, but I don’t think that’s necessary in making a case that the government is trying to force people not to smoke.

Fear of death is not the only means needed to prove forced coercion. Its just the most obvious kind.

 

[Deus_Vult]

deen:

Why don’t you take the challenge of the Qur’an so you can prove clearly if it is from God or not? The problem is …do you know arabic?

peace,

deen

I have read your Quran before…not in Arabic…if I did I suppose I would have some mystical transformation from reading it in your sacred tounge Ha Ha. I dont read Aramaic or Greek either but I am quite comfortable with the English translation of the New Testament. I am curious I know Muslims follow some of the Old Testament which was written in Hebrew do you know Hebrew. I often wondered how that works for you all considering the deep seeded hatred an all. And yes I know some Muslim sect deny some of the OT validity and only recognizes the Bible as a history book with errors and man’s alteration in it…blah blah blah. But it is where Muslims find their ancestory whether you want to admit it or not. Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that has even the slightest disagreement with Islam is always discarded.

Alot of the questions we have asked have yet to be answered by our Muslim friends on this thread…no answers to the violence projected in the Quran that I mentioned twice earlier in the thread etc… I think your text says it best why you dont:

Whatever the people of the Book [Jews and Christians]** tell you, do not verify them, nor falsify them, but say: We believe in Allah and His Apostle. If it is false, do not confirm it, and if it is right, do not falsify it.** (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Knowledge (Kitab Al-Ilm), Book 25, Number 3637)"

“The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah’s Apostle said (to the Muslims). 'Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, ‘We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.’ ’ (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur’an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 460)”

So basically just ignore the facts and try to get Christians and Jews to doubt themselves…are you up for Muhammed’s challenge…we are still waiting for an answer to how your supposed religion of peace own text is that of violence and intolerance of other religions.