This is Islam

[Deus_Vult]

Jermin Savory:

These are teachings that women should not teach in church…correct me if I am wrong but this is the same in Islam isnt it?

Jermin Savory: The Women in islam are well and out spoken in their views. Ofcorse they’re are no women to give the lectures on the friday lecture day. But islam doesn’t teach to silent them as you Bible does. Contrary, islam has many female scholars who are very busy in the islamic world who are speaking infront of thousands of men.

Islam suppressing the women is a big Misconception held by the west.

I do not hold this misconception…my point was that we hold some common ground here. There are many women that hold prominent positions in the Roman Catholic faith not much unlike in Islam. I think we are on the same page…I just wanted to clear up any misconception you may have had in regards to the New Testament scripture and how we regard it.

 

[Aris]

Jermin Savory:

These are teachings that women should not teach in church…correct me if I am wrong but this is the same in Islam isnt it?

**
Jermin Savory:** The Women in islam are well and out spoken in their views. Ofcorse they’re are no women to give the lectures on the friday lecture day. But islam doesn’t teach to silent them as you Bible does. Contrary, islam has many female scholars who are very busy in the islamic world who are speaking infront of thousands of men.

Islam suppressing the women is a big Misconception held by the west.

Jermin,

it is not a misconception. It is something we see.
Cases you might want to consider when we say that women are generally suppressed.
Afghanistan
Suadi Arabia
Pakistan
Iran
I would not want to cite the specific cases of each country but when you read the news, you find a different world from what we have always assumed.
It is a world where women are discouraged from voting, studying, going out shopping, and to extreme case where women are physically scarred by jealous/zealous male relatives.
Also you might want to check out the differences in our Bibles.
In our Bible, it is divided into two parts. The Old Testament and The New Testament. The rule in the Old Testament was an “EYE for an EYE”. The New Testament is “Love your Enemy”. Even if Jesus Christ said that this is the new commandment, it took us ordinary mortals a bit time to make this true.

In the Koran, I can not see the same thing. There is no such thing as love for the sinner and for those who are your enemy. It is as if the Koran was stuck in some earlier period when the rule of might was the rule and not love. To think that the Koran came 700 years after Christ, there should have been a more dramatic change to the positive.

lastly, the Koran lists Jesus Christ as a Prophet. However if we hold this to be true then what Jesus Christ said could not contradict the words of the last Prophet. However, all of what Jesus Christ said, which can be traced back to the time of the Apostles who wrote them, all say He is the Son of God. There is some reason to believe that one book should be wrong because they do not add up.

 

[BobCatholic]

deen:

ISLAM IS NOT WHAT MUSLIMS DO. ISLAM IS WHAT MUSLIMS SHOULD DO.

Which Islam?

There’s multiple interpretations of the Koran. There’s multiple Islamic sects out there, like Wahabbi, Shiite, Sunni, etc. Which one is the true Islam?

 

[iamrefreshed]

Jermin Savory:

In the name of Allah

Ryanl: This is very good that you are looking to the New Testament as a source of authority! You misunderstand the references, however. The real issue is women and their role in the Church.

Jermin Savory: No, I did not misunderstand the verse, the verse clearly states "in 1 Timothy 2:11-14 “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” There is no science behind the understanding of the verses. Not to mention that there is no context explaining this ill treatment of women.

Jermin,
You often tell posters that they take Qur’an verses out of context. Why do you not afford Ryan the same courtesy?

If I were to quote Sura, that, would seemingly promote violence against Infidels, you would be quick to point out (as you and many others have) that it is used out of context.

You state above that, “there is no science behind understanding of the verses”.
Is there science behind understanding Quranic verses?

You really can’t have it both ways.

 

[tmaconway]

elizabeth4truth:

As a Catholic I would never want anyone to denounce Allah. It is our Muslim brother’s and sister’s name for God. There are good and holy people in all religions. There are also those who make their religious affiliation look bad.

Peace,
Elizabeth

Remember, “Allah” is not Yahweh, the God of Abraham. “Allah” was a pagan rock god. I would not ever denounce Yahweh nor ask anyone to do so. Muhammed fabricated Allah for the purpose of plunder and personal enrichment.
Don’t belive a Muslim when they dredge up this “Peace be upon you” nonsense. Surely as you turn your back, they will stick a knife in you.
Consider this quote from the Qur’an:
Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”
Has Yahweh ever practiced deception? What spirit would concent to deceive? Think about it.

 

[elizabeth4truth]

tmaconway:

Remember, “Allah” is not Yahweh, the God of Abraham. “Allah” was a pagan rock god. I would not ever denounce Yahweh nor ask anyone to do so. Muhammed fabricated Allah for the purpose of plunder and personal enrichment.
Don’t belive a Muslim when they dredge up this “Peace be upon you” nonsense. Surely as you turn your back, they will stick a knife in you.
Consider this quote from the Qur’an:
Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”
Has Yahweh ever practiced deception? What spirit would concent to deceive? Think about it.

Greetings tmaconway,

From all I see here, in these posts, the Muslim people who seek to please God, are sincere. I do not have knowledge of their Holy Quran and can no longer keep distorted images of my fellow man, from hearsay evidence.

The passage you quote above does remind me of one person who is in the New Testament, Judas Iscariot.

All is in God’s hands. He commands that we love our neighbor, as our self. Does the Catholic Church teach us that Islam is demonic or do those opinions come from personal interpretation?

Peace to you,
Elizabeth

 

[TarAshly]

Jermin Savory:

In the name of Allah

Tarashley: Can someone please tell me why your faith thinks that it is ok for a man to beat his wife(s) and why she is treated like property. i have known a muslimah and her husband before.

Jermin Savory: Why do Christian men bause their women? Why do they drink and abuse their women after that? The same Quesion I will pose to you. Islam doesn’t allow the beating of wives. Neither does islam teach to be abusive to the women.

Tar Ashley: after befriending her and learning about her faith, i can honestly say i thank GOD and CHRIST and MARY and the HOLY SPIRIT that i am married to a GOD FEARING CATHOLIC man, who loves and cherishes and respects me.

Jermin Savory: Our Qur’an doesn’t teach to beat or silence our women but why does your bible teach in 1 Corinthians 14:34 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

Tar ashley: why are women not allowed to be free, to be individuals, to think and feel and act and do. why do they have to cover their bodies that God made for them? please explain this to me.

Jermin Savory: Qur’an doesn’t teach any of the points that you’'ve raised about, contrary your bible teaches in 1 Timothy 2:11-14 “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

Your denying what your own holy book says, i have read in your book that men should beat their wives to teach them fear and respect. and so that they dont forget that they are property and there only for your pleasure and amusement. i have seen it in your holy book. now my Holy Book may have the views that women should be silent in church and learn what they learn from husbands and dads. however the big difference here is that my Church has advanced, women participate in the mass. our husbands are taught to cherish and love us and treat us with respect. BIG difference there. women in your faith cant vote, cant choose who they marry, cant do anything without their husbands say so. thats barbaric if you ask me.

God Bless.

 

[Deus_Vult]

elizabeth4truth:

Greetings tmaconway,

From all I see here, in these posts, the Muslim people who seek to please God, are sincere. I do not have knowledge of their Holy Quran and can no longer keep distorted images of my fellow man, from hearsay evidence.

The passage you quote above does remind me of one person who is in the New Testament, Judas Iscariot.

All is in God’s hands. He commands that we love our neighbor, as our self. Does the Catholic Church teach us that Islam is demonic or do those opinions come from personal interpretation?

Peace to you,
Elizabeth

The difference Elizabeth is Judas was a man, the Quran is saying “Allah wants to deceive” and by the way tmaconway I believe it was Moon god not rock god hence the cresent moon and star logo. But in Muslim defense…did I just say that…Muhhamed came from a culture of pagans that worshipped 360 various gods and he was influenced by the Jews and Christians he came in contact with. He picked and choosed what he liked from Judism, Christianity and Paganism and came up with Islam…so in effect one could argue that their Allah is that of the Jewish God Yahweh but not the Trinity God we worship.

 

[Munawar]

TarAshly:

Your denying what your own holy book says, i have read in your book that men should beat their wives to teach them fear and respect.

Hi TarAshly,

Where does it say this in the Quran? I hope you can show us a verse which uses the words “beat, fear and respect”.

TarAshly:

and so that they dont forget that they are property and there only for your pleasure and amusement. i have seen it in your holy book.

Please show us some verses in the Quran that state this. I hope you cand fine one that includes the words “pleasure, amusement and property.”

TarAshly:

now my Holy Book may have the views that women should be silent in church and learn what they learn from husbands and dads. however the big difference here is that my Church has advanced, women participate in the mass.

Do you believe that God’s religion, needs to advance? Islam was revealed in the 6th century, and we dont redefine any of its laws for modern uses. It seems to me by participating in Mass, you are in contradiction to the Bible. I’m not mocking you, I wish to understand this concept.

Peace!

Munawar

 

[Munawar]

Deus Vult:

The difference Elizabeth is Judas was a man, the Quran is saying “Allah wants to deceive”

Hello Deus Vult,

Where does the Quran say that “Allah wants to decieve”?
Deus Vult:

and by the way tmaconway I believe it was Moon god not rock god hence the cresent moon and star logo.

The crescent moon is not a symbol of Islam. It was a symbol of the Ottoman empire in the 13th Century. Whats amusing is that the Ottoman leader stole the crecsent from the Byzantinian Christians of Constantinople.
Deus Vult:

He picked and choosed what he liked from Judism, Christianity and Paganism and came up with Islam…so in effect one could argue that their Allah is that of the Jewish God Yahweh but not the Trinity God we worship.

Can you back that up with more then just conjecture?

Munawar

 

[Munawar]

BobCatholic:

Which Islam?

There’s multiple interpretations of the Koran. There’s multiple Islamic sects out there, like Wahabbi, Shiite, Sunni, etc. Which one is the true Islam?

Hello Bob,

80% of the Muslims on this Earth are Sunni Muslims. Shiite make up 12%. After that you have very small sects.

How to determine which interpretation to follow? The same for any religion. How do I determine a good Catholic from a bad one? The one that follows what his book tells him.

Munawar

 

[RyanL]

Munawar:

Where does it say this in the Quran? I hope you can show us a verse which uses the words “beat, fear and respect”.

Surah 4:34
Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, **admonish **them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

I am not claiming that you do this or that this is the norm. You have made the claim that the Qur’an does not teach this - I have presented only what the Qur’an says.

Munawar:

Do you believe that God’s religion, needs to advance? Islam was revealed in the 6th century, and we dont redefine any of its laws for modern uses. It seems to me by participating in Mass, you are in contradiction to the Bible. I’m not mocking you, I wish to understand this concept.

God is God, and He Is Who Is. Men have a religion, which God has given to us as a gift to allow us to worship Him and participate in His Love. And that revelation was not complete, as no one can completely understand or comprehend a completely revealed God. Because God has not completely revealed Himself, we can be comfortable in seeking to know Him more fully through logic, scripture, prayer, and love (which are all involved in the Mass). I don’t understand what you have against the Mass - could you please present what you think is contradictory, and we could work through it? Perhaps this is a subject better suited to its own thread?

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[Deus_Vult]

Munawar:

Hi TarAshly,

Where does it say this in the Quran? I hope you can show us a verse which uses the words “beat, fear and respect”.

Munawar

Koran 4:34. Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

*In some translations beat them is *“strike them” (idribuhunna)

This has already been quoted…what does it mean to your sect?

 

[RyanL]

Munawar:

we dont redefine any of its laws for modern uses.

Oh, and to follow up - neither do we. The Catholic Church has taught the same things for 2000 years. We merely develope in understanding in what was taught. The Church cannot contradict herself, but she can define things more clearly.

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[Deus_Vult]

Munawar:

Hello Deus Vult,

Where does the Quran say that “Allah wants to decieve”?

Munawar

Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”
Has Yahweh ever practiced deception? What spirit would concent to deceive? Think about it.

This has already been quoted in the thread…try reading the entire thread or better yet you may want to try reading your Quran.

 

[RyanL]

Deus Vult:

This has already been quoted in the thread…try reading the entire thread or better yet you may want to try reading your Quran.

Deus,
In our love for truth, let us never forget the truth about love.
In Christ, and Him crucified!
RyanL

 

[TarAshly]

Koran 4:34. Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

*In some translations beat them is *“strike them” (idribuhunna)

This has already been quoted…what does it mean to your sect?

He posted it before i could, thats the quote i was looking for.

The most alarming is a 1990 amendment removing most penalties on ‘honor killings’ in which husband, brothers, or fathers killed women suspected of sexual misconduct to save the families’ ‘honor,’ according to the BBC article. Girls as young as 11 and 12 years old can be marked—even victims of rape, according to a April 19, 2003 Toronto Star article and a Pakistan Newswire article on Dec. 11, 2002. The Religion Beat Article

 

[Deus_Vult]

RyanL:

Deus,
In our love for truth, let us never forget the truth about love.
In Christ, and Him crucified!
RyanL

You are right my brother…I know I come of a bit brash at times but it is never my intention. I am just passionate in my beliefs. I dont hold back even with the ones I love. For a moment there I thought my wife sent me a message on the thread…she has to remind me sometimes as well…thanks for stepping in this time.

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[TarAshly]

“Wives of the Prophet, you are not like other women… Stay in your homes and do not display your finery as women used to do in the days of ignorance4” The Confederate Tribes 33:31
**
“Prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave-girls whom God has given you as booty; the daughters of your paternal and maternal uncles and of your paternal and maternal aunts who fled with you…” The Confederate Tribes 33:50-
**
“You may put off any of your wives you please and take to your bed any of them you please. Nor is it unlawful for you to receive any of those whom you have temporarily set aside. That is more proper, so that they may be contented and not vexed, and may all be pleased with what you give them.” The Confederate Tribes 33:51
**
*“Prophet, enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers to draw their veils close round them. That is more proper, so that they may be recognized and not be molested. God is ever forgiving and merciful.” The Confederate Tribes 33:59 *
**
“Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it.” The Cow 2:216
**
*“Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whoever fights for the cause of God, whether he dies or triumphs, on him We shall bestow a rich recompense.” Women 4:74
*

 

[Maryam_V]

tmaconway:

As the Crusades were fought with the sword and rosary, so
must we fight Islam today.
Our brave soldiers are on the front lines with the sword.
We here at home must pray for the conversion of all Muslims
and that we will prevail in this fight.
We must pray that they denounce Allah and accept Jesus as
their Lord and Savior.
Until then Islam will be like a cancer on this earth.

Yes, your soldiers are in the front lines with the sword…pray tell me where? in Iraq? in Afghanistan? in the Philippines? killing the women and children there - giving sovereign nations a dose of chemo-therapy perhaps?

Pray as much as you want - and call others, too…but the “cancer” will spread as these people who believe in this “cancer” worship none other than the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that’s in between them.

Consider this: the incident reported in Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:7 and Luke 18:18, in which Jesus says: ***“Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” ** *
Pretty explicit statements, yes? Now, where in that answer (or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter) does it say that one has to “accept Jesus as their Lord and Personal Savior” for them to get to heaven? That should cause you greater concern rather than bothering yourself with Islam’s teaching of worshipping Allah without any partners.

Maryam V.