This is so frustrating!

[Hermione]

I’ve been thinking about this for a while and it seems like the only alternatives for women in today’s society are these: 1) if a woman wants to pursue interests not related to the family and be successful she must forsake her husband and children and emulate careerist men or 2) if a woman wants to be a good wife and good mother she must throw away the idea of doing something else with her talents.

I’m a woman and I want to have both! I certainly don’t want to use birth control, I don’t want to see my future children as burdens standing in the way of my personal development. I would NEVER want to put my children in daycare because I don’t think it’s appropriate for a stranger with no love for the children to spend many hours – possibly more than the parents - each day with them. (Although I realize that some people need to have both parents working full time to earn enough money for food and housing, and there’s nothing wrong with that.) I want to love my children, I want them to be raised by their parents and not daycare, I want to be a good wife, I want my family to be my number one priority!!! At the same time, I’ve always wanted to pursue higher education. I’ve been interested in these things ever since I was a child and I would be very sad if I was never able to do them. I’ve always been the best in my class in the areas I want to study, and I don’t understand why God would give me these abilities and interests if He never wanted me to use them.

I feel like I don’t belong in any group. Secular feminists push birth control, daycare, abortions and all the other terrible things. Many Catholics and other religious people on the other hand look down on women who want to be something aside from stay at home mothers. I have always wondered why men don’t get treated similarly. It’s okay, and even noble, for a man to aspire to serve society outside the home, but if a married woman does it she is an evil witch who hates her children!!! (And as my recent poll showed, a good number of men on this board don’t think that women should do anything outside the home at all.) And just as it is noble for women to be stay at home mothers, stay at home fathers who sacrifice for their children just as much are looked down on. Why shold this be if both men and women have a VOCATION to be spouses and PARENTS. What does it mean to be a parent if not being there with the child, taking care of his needs and teaching him?

I agree that when the children are young the mother needs to be with them because she breastfeeds. But when they are older, what’s wrong with the father being the primary caretaker for a while? Being a parent is his calling in life just as it is the woman’s!

Why can’t men and women work together, BOTH putting their family first, and allowing both the man and the woman to use their talents outside of the home?

Why are men so opposed to the idea of being stay at home fathers for some of the time? I would have no problem staying at home for a few years and then working for a few years. That way the children would always have one of THEIR PARENTS raising them with love, attention, care etc. And at the same time women wouldn’t have to give up their interests and talents in order to have a family (after all men don’t have to!!!)

When I have children I want to spend as much time educating my girls as my boys. I want my girls to want to be wives and mothers but also scientists, politicians, writers, and whatever else they might want to do. I want them to use their talents to improve society.

But the way the world works now, it seems like I’ll have to tell them that they have to choose between having a family and using their talents to contribute to society in other ways.

It seems like the “traditional” way assumes that God never gives women any talents and never wants women to serve society with their creativity and intelligence etc.

The “traditional” way also downplays the importance of fathers. All the research shows that children (especially the boys) benefit A LOT from fathers who spend time raising them.

Frankly I think the best way to have a family is if both the mother and father work PART TIME and BOTH are there for their children. But if part time work is not practical, parents should take turns working full time and parenting.

 

[MamaGeek]

Family is a balancing act between mother, father, and children. It’s not an all-or-nothing. When the time comes, you and your husband will have to work out for yourselves what works best for your own family. Seriously, don’t fret it. Priorities change. You may find after you have children that you’d rather be a stay-at-home Mom, or you may find that your career is so rewarding that you’re happiest if you keep working. My advice is not to worry, but to trust God. Tell Him your concern, and leave it to Him to guide your life.

Leave tomorrow’s worries for tomorrow.

 

[AirForceMama]

My husband and I both work full time, and our kids are in daycare. However, even if I wasn’t working, I’d still have them in daycare, just not all day. They learn SO much from other children, and other adults. I would hate for them to be home with just me all day long, no matter how much I could teach them - they need the interaction.

Also, once kids are in school, that frees up time for parents to both work full-time without having daycare. If you absolutely have the mentality that daycare is wrong (YOUR opinion), then maybe you should consider doing online college work while your babies are young, preparing you for when they are in school and you can venture out for your career? Or get a job that includes your children, such as opening your own daycare.

Another thing to consider, unless you are specifically meaning “women can’t get PAID when having babies”, there are MANY MANY MANY things you can do WITH your baby that will fulfill dreams. Volunteering your time to charities, organizing community events, etc. Pop your baby in the carry-pack, and off you both go on an adventure.

 

[mom2boyz]

You have a very slanted view of how things can work. Many women are the bread winners and the husband stays at home. Whether society looks down on them is society’s problem. Society looks down on a lot of things. Try being a stay-at-home mom. Working women look at you as if you are stupid, lazy or have it made in the shade. There is always someone ready to criticize you for what you are doing.

I used to think kind of like you, but now with maturity I’ve decided I just don’t care what others think. I only care about if I doing God’s will.

I wanted to be a career woman and I did work for that when I was younger. Now I am a homemaker and I love it, but if you had told me this years ago I would have thought you were crazy. I love being with my children. Does it have some drawbacks? Sure it does, but I wouldn’t trade it for the most important powerful, and richest paying job anywhere.

Many of the women I know who stay home are very educated and many find ways to use their talents either parttime or volunteer.

Someone once told me that I had wasted my degrees. But I find I use them everyday as a mother. Truth be told this mothering job is far more challenging than any other that I have had.

But noone can have it all so choices have to be made. If you want a powerful career then you will have to make sacrifices in other areas and that is just how life works.

Then there is the definition of success. Today my definition of success is to do God’s will, raise children who love God, and to serve others as God calls me. Years ago my definition of success was doing what I wanted.

God has a plan for everyone. It is usually through prayer that we can best discern what that is for us. When I am trying to live that plan then I find I am happier. But the irony is the plan usually isn’t what I think it should be.

 

[john_ennis]

I want my girls to want to be wives and mothers but also scientists:

There’s much to say, but one thing jumped out at me in your post. “I want my girls to be wives and mothers but…I want them to use their talents to improve society.”

Look at both ends of that passage. They may be something other than wive or mothers, but nothing else they do WILL do as much to improve society.

Peace.
John

 

[Hermione]

Thanks for your responses everyone! I really appreciate them.

I’m sorry I seemed to have insulted people who put their children into daycare. When I typed that I was thinking of daycare providers who abuse the children (I recently saw a TV show about a babysitter who shook the baby and another baby who was brain damaged because of daycare). I neglected to consider that the socialization might actually be good for the kids and that there are good daycare providers!

I’ve a lot to learn!

 

[Hermione]

john ennis:

Look at both ends of that passage. They may be something other than wive or mothers, but nothing else they do WILL do as much to improve society.

Peace.
John

I don’t think that’s necessarily true. If a woman say discovered the cure for cancer she would help many more people and improve society much more than if she raised several children.

 

[fix]

Hermione:

I don’t think that’s necessarily true. If a woman say discovered the cure for cancer she would help many more people and improve society much more than if she raised several children.

The children she helped raise may find many cures.

 

[Lilyofthevalley]

Please explain how a woman is throwing away her talents by devoting her energy and talents to her children and family?

 

[TreeHugger]

Hermione:

I’ve been thinking about this for a while and it seems like the only alternatives for women in today’s society are these: 1) if a woman wants to pursue interests not related to the family and be successful she must forsake her husband and children and emulate careerist men or 2) if a woman wants to be a good wife and good mother she must throw away the idea of doing something else with her talents.

I’m a woman and I want to have both! I certainly don’t want to use birth control, I don’t want to see my future children as burdens standing in the way of my personal development. I would NEVER want to put my children in daycare because I don’t think it’s appropriate for a stranger with no love for the children to spend many hours – possibly more than the parents - each day with them. (Although I realize that some people need to have both parents working full time to earn enough money for food and housing, and there’s nothing wrong with that.) I want to love my children, I want them to be raised by their parents and not daycare, I want to be a good wife, I want my family to be my number one priority!!! At the same time, I’ve always wanted to pursue higher education. I’ve been interested in these things ever since I was a child and I would be very sad if I was never able to do them. I’ve always been the best in my class in the areas I want to study, and I don’t understand why God would give me these abilities and interests if He never wanted me to use them.

I’m curious…and let me tell you, I have struggled with the same issues…have you considered homeschooling? Perhaps this is the way that God wants you to apply your talents. And is it necessary for you to go to class for higher education, or could you possibly pursue reading and learning on your own? I guess my question is, what is the motivation behind the higher education? For myself, it was a matter of pride. i too was always the top of my class. My fiance has told me that there have been studies conducted that show stay at home moms contribute so much to society through raising their children this way that one might argue it contributes more than the woman working outside the home. It saves the govt tons of money. I’ll get more info from him when i talk to him tonight. I don’t think it’s possible to serve 2 masters and be putting your all into serving each one. Like it or not, something is going to suffer if you have a job outside the home, and a family. If family is truly your priority, and helping them get to heaven is your vocation, why would you want to take away from that (if not necessary)? It seems to me that from these studies, stay at home moms contribute arguably more to society than working moms. If contributing to society is your goal, there you go. If this is not satisfactory to you, I question whether contributing to society is truly your motivation for the pursuit of higher ed and a career.

Hermione:

Many Catholics and other religious people on the other hand look down on women who want to be something aside from stay at home mothers. I have always wondered why men don’t get treated similarly. It’s okay, and even noble, for a man to aspire to serve society outside the home, but if a married woman does it she is an evil witch who hates her children!!!

I don’t look down on you. Please don’t get that impression. I guess what i’m getting at is how do you feel working outside the home will help you keep your family the focus of your life? I think husbands shouldn’t be spending unnecessary time away from their family either. However, I also believe that women and men have different natures. Men today have lost sight of what their vocation as men entails. Look around you… what is left for a man to do to feel like he contributes to the family? Women do everything in our modern society. Give birth, have more of an intuititive/nurturing nature for raising kids, have a knack for detail that makes them often excel in academics and careers. If nothing else, I think a husband should support his family to make him feel as though he is important, just as a woman should feel she is.

Hermione:

Why shold this be if both men and women have a VOCATION to be spouses and PARENTS. What does it mean to be a parent if not being there with the child, taking care of his needs and teaching him?
I agree that when the children are young the mother needs to be with them because she breastfeeds. But when they are older, what’s wrong with the father being the primary caretaker for a while? Being a parent is his calling in life just as it is the woman’s!

 

[TreeHugger]

(continued)

Yes, they are both parents. But it is no accident that they differ in so many ways. Each have distinct feminine and masculine needs that need to be nurtured. I was raised by my father, and let me tell you…I know he did his best, but there were so many times that I sank into depression. With him and 3 brothers, I felt like there was something wrong with me because they never hugged me, talked roughly with me even when i was upset,etc. Plain and simple, men are not nearly as intuitive as women. Unless it is necessary, I think that kids are cheated when not raised by their mother. You might think it’s just my father who lacks intuition, but it’s not so. There are inarguable differences btwn men and women.

I’m not going to highlight anymore of your text. But I am going to be frank. A woman can use her talents to improve society through mothering. I have been where you are, and I fear that you feel as I used to. In fact, I still struggle with the idea that mothering is the best way to help your family and society. I’ll be the first to admit I have brainwashed all my life to think otherwise. I don’t see why you can’t continue to learn and educate yourself while raising your kids. I think a family that truly wants to keep God center should only be approaching work and/or a career as something necessary to put the bread on the table. Are you sure this is not an issue of pride, and not of feeling as though your talents should contribute to society?

I will pray for you, and discernment in your vocation.
God Bless.

 

[Benedictus]

Hermione:

I’m sorry I seemed to have insulted people who put their children into daycare.

Daycare is always a sad situation. Children belong with their parents. Sometimes the truth hurts, but that doesn’t change the facts. Children, especially young children, do not belong in dayprison. Sometimes people can’t avoid putting their children in daycare, but the situation is still unfortunate.

Being with strange children with little discipline at a young age is not good for children. My brother and I spent quite a bit of time in different daycare situations, and it was not good for us. I know people who have worked at daycare centers and now vow that they will never do that to their children.

Daycare is bad.

 

[Seven_Sorrows]

Hermione:

I don’t mean to be judgemental, cause I don’t know enough about you or your situation. But are you sure it was God that was telling you to get an education at a young age??? or was that just what your parents and society was telling you? and even if God was telling you to do that…that doesn’t mean you have to leave home. What are these suppossed talents that you HAVE to give back to society? My wife (stay at home mother) got a degree in accounting and now stays at home. She does all our finances at home as well as the band finances. Her talents are not going to waste, plus with a college education, she will much more be able to help raise our kids and enlighten them.

So what I am assuming is that you did not go to college after high school, or you got pregnant before college? If you felt the calling by God to go to college, why didn’t you wait to get pregnant or married?

 

[Seven_Sorrows]

AirForceMama:

My husband and I both work full time, and our kids are in daycare. However, even if I wasn’t working, I’d still have them in daycare, just not all day. They learn SO much from other children, and other adults. I would hate for them to be home with just me all day long, no matter how much I could teach them - they need the interaction.

As a person who sees the effects of daycare on young children (I am a kindergarten teacher), I would say the negative WAYYY outweighs the good.

1. on a health aspect, the children will have much more exposure to diseases at a young age.
2. habits - this is where children pick up bad habits that you as a parent (who only sees your child a few hours a day) will not be able to easily break, since they will be with the habit more than without
3. Yes they do learn “SO much”…but not things they need to be learning. Children who go to daycare (as oppossed to those who stay at home with mom) know considerably less. They are merely entertained all day, or babysat, instead of being loved and nurtured, and taught things to prepare them for school. The interaction that they need, should come from their bothers and sisters at home…what else does a 3-4 year old need?
4. They do not get the motherly(parental) love that God designed them to receive. They are with total strangers (who then become more of a family then their own, since they are with them more often then their own family). Do these strangers hold them, hug them kiss them, give them one on one time? No.

I am not saying you are bad parents and don’t love your children, but I would not place as much trust as you do in daycare. Just look at the name itself…Daycare…they care for your child during the day. Do you and your husband both HAVE to work, neither of you can care for your child during the day?

AirForceMama:

Also, once kids are in school, that frees up time for parents to both work full-time without having daycare.

I don’t think this is an option for most Catholic families, because most Catholic families have more than 1 or 2 kids…so they always have little kids at home…so maybe by the time the 5, 6, 7th kid gets in school, then yes they may have some freetime.

 

[trevor]

Hello Hermione,

I can only explain to you what it was like for me growing up.

My mother worked until my dad could manage the household. At that time she became a full time stay at home mom. This was when I was around 6 or 7. When she did work, she always worked the graveyard shift so she wouldn’t miss us. Don’t ask me how she did it.

I cannot tell you how much it meant to us that mom was always home. There’s a security there, it becomes a home, a place of refuge. I know for a fact my siblings and I would never have gotten that out of daycare.

My wife works part time. She is her own boss so she can juggle her schedule quite a bit. She is also the kind of person that needs to be around people and working. Staying at home all of the time is not an option. So we do the best we can, but maximize the amount of time she spends with the children during the day.

I have to disagree with you on one thing, while men and women are parents, each has their own gifts and abilities that they bring to the marriage. Men are not the same as women and therefore it is not quite so easy to say that they can easily replace women (this is an argument homosexuals use very often).

Pray, hope and don’t worry. I am sure God has many things in store for you. If children are in your future, remember that time slips by so fast and when you are 80, the only thing you will be thinking about is your children, not if you could have worked one more hour.

God bless,
Trevor

 

[Hermione]

Thanks for your responses everyone

I agree that parenthood should come before career unless the woman (or man) is so talented that she can do something that can truly benefit many people (like find the cure for cancer etc.)

I think there needs to be more emphasis on the duties of fathers. Men aren’t called to careers, they are called to be husbands and fathers as well. Careers are a new phenomenon anyway because in the past most people farmed and all of the family worked to support itself.

Men need to make sacrifices and spend time parenting the children as well. It is unreasonable for a man to expect his wife to take care fo everything unpleasant but necessary while he goes out into the world to find an interesting job.

I wonder how many of you guys who want women to stay at home actually contributed significantly to doing the duties of parenting like changing diapers, doing laundry, cleaning up, feeding etc.

 

[trevor]

Hermione:

It is unreasonable for a man to expect his wife to take care of everything unpleasant but necessary while he goes out into the world to find an interesting job.

I wonder how many of you guys who want women to stay at home actually contributed significantly to doing the duties of parenting like changing diapers, doing laundry, cleaning up, feeding etc.

Well you got me. I leave all of the hard stuff to my wife and enjoy my life enhancing job, which I do when I am without my family. This is how we men prefer it.

Peace be with you,
Trevor

 

[Hermione]

trevor:

Well you got me. I leave all of the hard stuff to my wife and enjoy my life enhancing job, which I do when I am without my family. This is how we men prefer it.

Peace be with you,
Trevor

If it’s not then how come most men are so reluctant IN PRINCIPLE to ever be stay at home fathers?

 

[theMutant]

Part 1

Hermione:

I’ve been thinking about this for a while and it seems like the only alternatives for women in today’s society are these: 1) if a woman wants to pursue interests not related to the family and be successful she must forsake her husband and children and emulate careerist men or 2) if a woman wants to be a good wife and good mother she must throw away the idea of doing something else with her talents.

I’m a woman and I want to have both! I certainly don’t want to use birth control, I don’t want to see my future children as burdens standing in the way of my personal development.

A very interesting question but I, personally, don’t see why you couldn’t have both - as long as it does not equate to “it all.” Even men cannot have that; as the divorce rate shows. There are certain practical limitations that apply to both men and women when it comes to deciding who will stay home. (I am assuming a situation where a couple has decided that one of them will do so.) Ultimately, this is a decision that couples must decide together. I know couples where the man is the one who stays home and they have a very happy life.

First of all, I think that you need to eliminate this idea that not having a profession in any way stands in the way of your personal development. I have worked and advanced in my career for nearly 20 years but almost none of that experience has been a major factor in my personal development. It has certainly had nowhere near the impact of my 16 years of marriage and 11 years of being a father. I am relatively successful in my profession but that is not who I am. It is far more important for me to be a good Catholic husband and father because that is who and what I am.

It is an unfortunate fact that, if you want to truly “succeed” in the business world, you need to set aside the needs of spouse and children. This is just as true for men as it is for women; the only difference is that society is (unfortunately) more accepting of when men do this. The reality is that any married person needs to put spouse and children first. I have heard the argument that they do this to provide for the needs of wife and children but, again, the divorce rate proves that this is a fallacy. Husbands and wives need their spouses and children need their parents. These needs need to come first. It is more important to provide for these needs, which are true needs, than to provide for the mere wants of a materialistic society. The point is that I can accept a lower level of success in order to ensure that I am meeting the true needs of my wife and children and that this has enhanced my personal development while preventing me from moving up the corporate ladder. Keep this in mind when you are considering your own desires for career and personal “advancement.”

Hermione:

At the same time, I’ve always wanted to pursue higher education. I’ve been interested in these things ever since I was a child and I would be very sad if I was never able to do them. I’ve always been the best in my class in the areas I want to study, and I don’t understand why God would give me these abilities and interests if He never wanted me to use them.

I agree. Pursue your studies and higher education but realize that your schedule for these things might be different than that of others. When we got married, my wife and I decided that she would be the one to stay home and I would work. (She hated every job she ever had.) As a result, she was able to get her degree within 6 years of our getting married. I am still slowly working on mine. The point is that my family and career have not stopped me from pursuing this goal. The needs of family and career have just extended the time line for meeting this goal. These types of things can be worked out between spouses as long as the truly important things (i.e., the family itself) are always given top priority.

(continued…)

 

[theMutant]

Part 2 (continued from post #19)

Hermione:

I feel like I don’t belong in any group. Secular feminists push birth control, daycare, abortions and all the other terrible things. Many Catholics and other religious people on the other hand look down on women who want to be something aside from stay at home mothers. I have always wondered why men don’t get treated similarly. It’s okay, and even noble, for a man to aspire to serve society outside the home, but if a married woman does it she is an evil witch who hates her children!!! (And as my recent poll showed, a good number of men on this board don’t think that women should do anything outside the home at all.) And just as it is noble for women to be stay at home mothers, stay at home fathers who sacrifice for their children just as much are looked down on. Why shold this be if both men and women have a VOCATION to be spouses and PARENTS. What does it mean to be a parent if not being there with the child, taking care of his needs and teaching him?

EXCELLENT points!!! These very questions are why you should not look to these “groups” to define yourself. Let society say what it wants (it will anyway) and live your life according to God’s Law. It would be wonderful if society honored both men and women who live ordinary lives and put their families before material success. Don’t hold your breath waiting for this, though. It is the teachings of the Faith that provide the true definitions of what is and is not “noble;” not secularist and materialist society.

Hermione:

I agree that when the children are young the mother needs to be with them because she breastfeeds. But when they are older, what’s wrong with the father being the primary caretaker for a while? Being a parent is his calling in life just as it is the woman’s!

As long as you and your husband agree to accept the consequences of this decision, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. I’ll give you an example. I’ve worked in the same industry for nearly 20 years; not because I love my job or even the type of work, but because circumstances handed me a job in this industry and I ended up being pretty good at it. There have been many times that I have thought of switching careers but I haven’t because of the dramatic change it would wreak on my family. Instead of being a person who is somewhat in demand because of my years of experience, I would become the inexperienced “new guy” as I approach my 40s. I would lose income and, very likely, flexibility in the conditions of my job like what hours I would work.

If you choose to start a career after your kids are older, you and your husband will face the same thing. He will potentially be leaving a career of years of experience and you will be starting fresh. There is nothing wrong with making this decision, but it is not one to be taken lightly.

Hermione:

Why are men so opposed to the idea of being stay at home fathers for some of the time? I would have no problem staying at home for a few years and then working for a few years. That way the children would always have one of THEIR PARENTS raising them with love, attention, care etc. And at the same time women wouldn’t have to give up their interests and talents in order to have a family (after all men don’t have to!!!)

What you say about men not having to is only really true if the men put these outside interests ahead of their families. You make it sound as if men have the ability to do absolutely anything and women nothing. I’m afraid that it is not quite as simple as that.

(continued…)