This is so frustrating!

[theMutant]

Part 3 (continued from post #20)

Hermione:

When I have children I want to spend as much time educating my girls as my boys. I want my girls to want to be wives and mothers but also scientists, politicians, writers, and whatever else they might want to do. I want them to use their talents to improve society.

But the way the world works now, it seems like I’ll have to tell them that they have to choose between having a family and using their talents to contribute to society in other ways.

The way you word this, it almost sounds as though there is no trade-off going on in pursuing these types of careers. However, we know that this is not the case. The successfull scientist and politician has to devote enormous amounts of time away from the family. This is what I meant at the beginning of this post when I stated that family and career can be successfully mixed - as long as you don’t want “it all.” It is easily possible to have a stellarly successful family and a successful (but not stellarly successful) career. It is easily possible to have a stellarly successful career but your family life will be mediocre at best. However, it is not practically possible to have a stellarly successful career and family life. This is equally true for both men and women.

Hermione]It seems like the “traditional” way assumes that God never gives women any talents and never wants women to serve society with their creativity and intelligence etc.

The “traditional” way also downplays the importance of fathers. All the research shows that children (especially the boys) benefit A LOT from fathers who spend time raising them.

This really depends on what period of time that you are looking at when you talk about “traditional.” The “traditional” view has changed a great deal over time. The view you promote as ideal was actually the prevailing view during part of the feudal period of the Middle Ages and was only replaced with what we percieve as the “traditional” view in the late Middle Ages as it transitioned to the period misnamed as the Enlightenment.

 

[AirForceMama]

Seven Sorrows:

As a person who sees the effects of daycare on young children (I am a kindergarten teacher), I would say the negative WAYYY outweighs the good.

1. on a health aspect, the children will have much more exposure to diseases at a young age.
2. habits - this is where children pick up bad habits that you as a parent (who only sees your child a few hours a day) will not be able to easily break, since they will be with the habit more than without
3. Yes they do learn “SO much”…but not things they need to be learning. Children who go to daycare (as oppossed to those who stay at home with mom) know considerably less. They are merely entertained all day, or babysat, instead of being loved and nurtured, and taught things to prepare them for school. The interaction that they need, should come from their bothers and sisters at home…what else does a 3-4 year old need?
4. They do not get the motherly(parental) love that God designed them to receive. They are with total strangers (who then become more of a family then their own, since they are with them more often then their own family). Do these strangers hold them, hug them kiss them, give them one on one time? No.

I am not saying you are bad parents and don’t love your children, but I would not place as much trust as you do in daycare. Just look at the name itself…Daycare…they care for your child during the day. Do you and your husband both HAVE to work, neither of you can care for your child during the day?QUOTE]

I have to disagree. I have my education degree, I taught school, as well as worked in a daycare during college. I didn’t just choose the “prison” down the street to care for my children. I know there are bad ones out there, but there are good ones, ones with teachers and owners who truly do care for children. I know all the teachers, and did much research before putting my kids in their care. The curriculum that they use for my children is great - I’m well aware of what they are learning. Bad habits come from EVERYWHERE - and the most of them will come from INSIDE the home. Are you going to shelter your children from everything? Or will you let them live and learn? And in learning, I do mean to stand up as a parent and show the the right way.

I CHOOSE to have my kids in daycare while I work. The way this thread is going you all are saying that women need to stay at home while only men are in the business offices. I will say that daycare options only work for those parents who MAKE it work. I don’t do housework until the kids are in bed so I can spend more time with them in the afternoons/evenings. I don’t use TV as a babysitter, and my children are very well behaved and have manners.

On the other hand, I commend those women who are stay-at-home mothers, and especially those who homeschool. When my husband joined the military we had an agreement - he goes in, I stay home. Sounded good, until the time came. I simply am not ready. I do not feel that I’m harming my kids by having them in preschool, and I get the enjoyment of my work. I’m sure someday I will be a stay home mom, but for MY family, RIGHT NOW, this is how we choose to live. And I am not naive in my actions, nor am I sinning, nor am I a bad parent.

 

[cove]

Hermione:

I don’t think that’s necessarily true. If a woman say discovered the cure for cancer she would help many more people and improve society much more than if she raised several children.

I find the story of Madame Curie very inspirational. She was the first woman to recieve a doctorate in science and along with her husband was awarded the Nobel Prize. She had two children. She worked tirelessly for the scientific community and was raised a Catholic.

Her discoveries helped in the development of radiation therapy for cancer.

aip.org/history/curie/brief/index.html

 

[Seatuck]

What I find inspirational is Pierre’s father moved in to take care of the baby so she could work.

 

[Theodora]

Hermione,

Instead of working for someone else, could you start your own business? Nothing that so preoccupies your time of course that you can’t spend time with your family, but something where you can use your talents, start small and gradually involve your children in the business.

You will be your own boss and be more or less in control of your time. You will be with your children more than if you worked a regular 8-hour job, away from your children sometimes for a good 9-10 hours, considering that you have to get ready in the morning, spend time driving to and fro to daycare, run errands, come home, fix dinner, and get ready again for the next day.

I got this idea by observing families who start a small business, be it a neighborhood convenience store, restaurant, or you probably come up with a better idea that suits your circumstances. I have seen a very small grocery store that stuck to selling ethnic food products take over a whole city block. Of course this did not happen overnight, it took a good 27 years. But in the beginning you don’t want something that will be way over your head.

Just a suggestion. Something to think about, pray about (a lot), plan. What do you think?

 

[kmktexas]

Hermione,

It is very possible to “have it all” but you need to first realize that society is currently set up in such a way that it SEEMS like an either-or choice. To use a cliche, you have to think outside the box.

I spent many years as a typical “career woman”. My chosen career was human resources - something that is almost always tied to a corporation. I don’t have an entreprenurial bone in my body so the whole idea of starting my own business in order to stay at home made me physically ill. But I am working from home now teaching Human Resources classes for a distance learning college. My kids had care-givers when they were very little but always in my home or a one-on-one (or two) situation in the care giver’s home. No day care centers.

While it is too bad that I didn’t have this solution earlier when the kids were tiny, now I am there when they get home from school, I go to all the after school activities and get to volunteer at school too. All this and a paycheck doing something that is related to my education and that I love.

Someone once said to find something you love and then look for a way to make money doing it.

Don’t worry, you will find a way.

 

[Hermione]

Thanks again for responding everyone! Sorry I can’t reply individually, the amount of posts is a bit overwhelming!

theMutant, you are absolutely right. In today’s world neither men nor women can “have it all” (although it’s probably hardest for good Catholic women as they would forego birth control and would spend a lot of time pregnant and nursing).

I wish the work environment was more family friendly in general. If both parents were able to get good, fulfilling part time jobs the problem would be solved! That way the children would have a lot of personal time with both parents and both parents would be able to pursue interests outside of the home.

To those who mentioned starting a business at home, that’s a good idea except that it’s not what I feel a drive to do!!! Actually the thing I want to do is study physics so I could probably do that AND raise very educated kids My only regret would be that I probably wouldn’t have any opportunities to do research as that would seem to require a full-time commitment!

I wonder if there is any way we can make a family friendly work environment. I think this is very important not just for this reason, but also because it would encourage women to have more children. The low birth rates among European women especially are very alarming!!! We could all die out and be replaced by Muslims who have 4 wives and 50 kids per family.

 

[mom2boyz]

It sounds like you don’t think of the marriage as a team effort. When we take our vows we become one. My husband works to support our family. I stay home and care for the children. Both very important jobs. It could be the other way around but this works best for our family. But that doesn’t mean his day ends when he gets home. Right now he is bathing the children and putting them to bed while I work on paying the bills and straightening the house. We don’t usually do the same jobs, but we try to compliment each other. When he works a lot of hours, I don’t think “well, that just for him and his desire to get ahead.” I think “he is trying to do a good job to provide for us.” He sometimes wishes he could be the one home to hear the wonderful things the children say or do, but he always says how glad he is that I am able to be there for the children. Why can I do this? Because he works hard for his family’s well being. Men and women are different. More men I know seem to innately feel the need to provide. More women I know want to nurture. If the husband wants to nurture and the woman wants to provide then that’s fine. What is important is that they remember they are one, not enemies.

 

[Seven_Sorrows]

AirForceMama:

I have to disagree. I have my education degree, I taught school, as well as worked in a daycare during college. I didn’t just choose the “prison” down the street to care for my children. I know there are bad ones out there, but there are good ones, ones with teachers and owners who truly do care for children. I know all the teachers, and did much research before putting my kids in their care. The curriculum that they use for my children is great - I’m well aware of what they are learning. Bad habits come from EVERYWHERE - and the most of them will come from INSIDE the home. Are you going to shelter your children from everything? Or will you let them live and learn? And in learning, I do mean to stand up as a parent and show the the right way.

I CHOOSE to have my kids in daycare while I work. The way this thread is going you all are saying that women need to stay at home while only men are in the business offices. I will say that daycare options only work for those parents who MAKE it work. I don’t do housework until the kids are in bed so I can spend more time with them in the afternoons/evenings. I don’t use TV as a babysitter, and my children are very well behaved and have manners.

On the other hand, I commend those women who are stay-at-home mothers, and especially those who homeschool. When my husband joined the military we had an agreement - he goes in, I stay home. Sounded good, until the time came. I simply am not ready. I do not feel that I’m harming my kids by having them in preschool, and I get the enjoyment of my work. I’m sure someday I will be a stay home mom, but for MY family, RIGHT NOW, this is how we choose to live. And I am not naive in my actions, nor am I sinning, nor am I a bad parent.

I do not want to say you are a bad mother at all. You have to think about what you are saying and doing though. I know you are choosing a “good” or even the “best” daycare…but are you saying that these people can raise your kids better than you? Because that is what you are letting them do. Is this what God has planned for our children, that they are raised by others? Is that what God had planned for you? Did Mary put Jesus in daycare cause she wanted “the enjoyment” of a job, or did she raise Jesus because that is what God called her to do. If you are not ready to be a “stay at home mom”…where you ready to have kids? Being a mother is a fulltime job…God made it that way. Yes some women HAVE to leave their children to be able to support them, but if you are leaving them, then you are only 1/2 time mother.

Yes bad habits can be learned at home, but if those are the only “bad” habits my child picks up…I will be happy. I will be happy if the worst thing my child ever says is “****” or forgets to clean up after himself. It is hardly “sheltering him from the world” if he is only 3-4…that is just called being a parent. A child hardly “lives and learns” at age 3-4…they do not rationally think/understand enough to “live and learn”…you act like they are in high school or college.

I am not trying to be mean or make assumptions on you…just giving you serious things to think about.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Hermione:

Men need to make sacrifices and spend time parenting the children as well. It is unreasonable for a man to expect his wife to take care fo everything unpleasant but necessary while he goes out into the world to find an interesting job.

Not everyone gets to go into the world to find an interesting job. Many, many paychecks are earned by getting up every morning to go to uninteresting, thankless jobs.

My husband makes many career sacrifices for our family. He turned down more interesting jobs that paid better but involved overnight travel. He turned down more interesting jobs that required a move or that didn’t pay as well. He doesn’t even like his present job situation (hopefully this will improve) but he works at it to provide for the family.

I have also sacrificed my career. I am an educated professional, but I choose a field that offered part time choices. I’ve worked full time & part time, but I currently stay home full time. (My education still comes in handy–it’s not wasted, just utilized differently.) I realized at one critical career crossroad that I needed to sacrifice either my career or my child. In giving up the career I loved, I found the truth of the prayer “in giving we recieve.” We’ve got lots more children now.

Husbands and wives need to work together to discover what’s best for their family. Both need to make sacrifices, because if they don’t it is the children who are sacrificed. Please don’t underestimate the sacrifices made by some men so that their children can have full time mothers, and so their family can embrace more children.

 

[sullivansoul]

We do all realize that work/careers has NEVER been seen as a bonus right? So where has this mentality of, “Work shall set you free” come from…oh right…that whole Nazi/Communist propaganda thing.

 

[Hermione]

I realize now that I overlooked the many men who make huge sacrifices for their families by working uninteresting, difficult jobs.

So to all those men: I am very sorry!

 

[puzzleannie]

In short, you want it all. Well, learn from my generation, we were told we could have it all, but they lied. somethings gotta give. Make up your mind what you want and where your priorities are. The rules are the same for men as for women. A career path that is extremely demanding in terms of education, investment in preparation, long hours, travel etc. is going to take you away from your family. Remember the ER story line about Mark and Jennifer Green, resident MD and law student, and the conflict in their marriage from both pursuing and exceptionally demanding career? Whether or not the rewards of doing so outweigh the cost every one has to decide for himself or herself, but such decisions, if your are married MUST be made together and consider the welfare of the entire family.

 

[Lilyofthevalley]

Hermione, what don’t you understand about women being a stay at home mom involves more than house work???
You seem to be on this “kick” that is all there is to it.
Sorry, to inform you, stay at home moms do more than housework.
If you feel you are too good for motherhood, don’t have sex, don’t get married. It’s simple. With a family you CAN’T have it all. Simple, when you make the decision to make a baby your life is no longer your own. The same is true for dad. It is no longer about YOUR wants and needs it’s about the child’s.

 

[faithhopelove]

So for those of you who think that the mother should stay home to raise kids, do you think God calls women to anything but motherhood?

I am finishing up medical school this year. I truly feel that God gave me talents that he intended for me to use as a physician. I never wanted to be a doctor, and in all honesty, I dread the day I start residency because I hate working long hours and being on call away from husband. But after much thought and prayer and counsel of several Catholic mentors, I came to realization (or some may call it a belief) that God has called me to medicine. I can see how my talents are well suited to be a physician, and I believe that I have some empathy that others physicians may not have that will complement my scientific mind.

But, although I enjoy working with patients and find medicine fascinating, at this point, if it were my choice, I would rather stay with the kids (if God chooses to bless us with some), but I truly believe that it is God’s will that I serve others as a physician. And although there are limited options for working part-time, those options don’t exist during residency, and “part-time” in the medicine world usually equates to working 40 hrs/wk as opposed to 60-70 hr/wk.

Now, I am willing to make whatever sacrifices I have to in my career for my family life. But I do believe I will have responsibilities to my patients, although my family will always come before my career, there will be times when patient care will have to come before family, just like the man who has to work late on occasion to meet a deadline. I do not want to necessarily move up the ladder in academic medicine, although I know that I would disappoint many who are training me now if I do not pursue that option.

So do you think I have been misguided?

 

[gardenswithkids]

faithhopelove:

So for those of you who think that the mother should stay home to raise kids, do you think God calls women to anything but motherhood?..I came to realization (or some may call it a belief) that God has called me to medicine. I can see how my talents are well suited to be a physician, and I believe that I have some empathy that others physicians may not have that will complement my scientific mind…I would rather stay with the kids (if God chooses to bless us with some), but I truly believe that it is God’s will that I serve others as a physician…
So do you think I have been misguided?

Great comments! What a blessing to know where God calls you and what grace to respond to it!

As you are a woman, you are called to some form of “motherhood”, but that doesn’t neccesarily mean as we typically define “motherhood.” We can see “Spiritual Motherhood” in the lives of the loving nuns who care for strangers as if they were their own children… Your empathy can bring a mother’s softness to your patients as you care for them.

If God has also called you to marriage and a family, then you and your husband must decide in prayer how to manage it. No one can make these choices for you, but society lies to us in different ways. In years past we were told women couldn’t do what you feel called to do. Then they told us women could balance career and family with no one sacrificing. Christian life requires that we sacrifice ourselves, and you and your husband together decide how to sacrifice yourselves for your family.

 

[legeorge]

QUOTE=puzzleannie]In short, you want it all. Well, learn from my generation, w[e were told we could have it all, but they lied. somethings gotta give. Make up your mind what you want and where your priorities are. The rules are the same for men as for women. A career path that is extremely demanding in terms of education, investment in preparation, long hours, travel etc. is going to take you away from your family. Remember the ER story line about Mark and Jennifer Green, resident MD and law student, and the conflict in their marriage from both pursuing and exceptionally demanding career?

More importantly, remember how their daughter turned out?
[/quote]

 

[Hermione]

faithhopelove:

So for those of you who think that the mother should stay home to raise kids, do you think God calls women to anything but motherhood?

I am finishing up medical school this year. I truly feel that God gave me talents that he intended for me to use as a physician. I never wanted to be a doctor, and in all honesty, I dread the day I start residency because I hate working long hours and being on call away from husband. But after much thought and prayer and counsel of several Catholic mentors, I came to realization (or some may call it a belief) that God has called me to medicine. I can see how my talents are well suited to be a physician, and I believe that I have some empathy that others physicians may not have that will complement my scientific mind.

But, although I enjoy working with patients and find medicine fascinating, at this point, if it were my choice, I would rather stay with the kids (if God chooses to bless us with some), but I truly believe that it is God’s will that I serve others as a physician. And although there are limited options for working part-time, those options don’t exist during residency, and “part-time” in the medicine world usually equates to working 40 hrs/wk as opposed to 60-70 hr/wk.

Now, I am willing to make whatever sacrifices I have to in my career for my family life. But I do believe I will have responsibilities to my patients, although my family will always come before my career, there will be times when patient care will have to come before family, just like the man who has to work late on occasion to meet a deadline. I do not want to necessarily move up the ladder in academic medicine, although I know that I would disappoint many who are training me now if I do not pursue that option.

So do you think I have been misguided?

I don’t think you’ve been misguided! I hope everything works out in your life and you’re able to help many people as well as raise a family.

My point was that women CAN do these things as long as their husbands would be willing to become stay at home fathers, because it’s best if the children’s parents (not daycare) raise them.

Would your husband stay at home with the children?

 

[Hermione]

Lilyofthevalley:

Hermione, what don’t you understand about women being a stay at home mom involves more than house work???
You seem to be on this “kick” that is all there is to it.
Sorry, to inform you, stay at home moms do more than housework.
If you feel you are too good for motherhood, don’t have sex, don’t get married. It’s simple. With a family you CAN’T have it all. Simple, when you make the decision to make a baby your life is no longer your own. The same is true for dad. It is no longer about YOUR wants and needs it’s about the child’s.

My mother was a stay at home mother with TWO children. Her day mostly consisted of cooking, cleaning, getting groceries, taking her kids places etc. She literally did chores all day, every day, for many years. She didn’t even have time to sit down and read a book until late at night!

And I don’t think I’m “too good” for motherhood… my point was that men can and do have it all while women are expected to completely sacrifice their personal lives. I’m not opposed to sacrificing my personal life for the family, but I would want my husband to do it as well.

 

[Princess_Abby]

Hermione:

My mother was a stay at home mother with TWO children. Her day mostly consisted of cooking, cleaning, getting groceries, taking her kids places etc. She literally did chores all day, every day, for many years. She didn’t even have time to sit down and read a book until late at night!

And I don’t think I’m “too good” for motherhood… my point was that men can and do have it all while women are expected to completely sacrifice their personal lives. I’m not opposed to sacrificing my personal life for the family, but I would want my husband to do it as well.

so what exactly does your fiance say about all of this?