This is The REAL Islam

[GregoryPalamas]

Contarini:

USCatholic,

As a Christian, I welcome any attempt to create a rift between your views of Islam and mine. You have made a blatantly false statement about Islamic responses to 9/11, and followed that up with a totally unfounded assertion about the motives of a leading Islamic leader. You have no credibility whatever. You are an embarrassment to the Christian Faith.

Edwin

Edwin,

That is just nonsense. There are many Muslims who have throughout history denied parts of the Qur’an and much of the history of Islam and have become very fine people. Mistaken in their beliefs but very fine people. USCatholic is simply pointing out some unavodable realities about Islam that many would like to pretend aren’t there. You don’t wish the recent behavior of many Episcopalians exposed here do you?

Dan L

 

[deen]

Lisa4Catholics:

First thanks for responding and second I hate nobody,my aunt was married to one and beaten and had to escape from the middle east when her husbands father beat his mom for speaking out out of turn,she was dying already,she died that night.My aunt got a big reality check.:nope: Beheading people and killing people from different religions or hating them because their not Muslim is not right.

**I am sorry for what happened. That’s why I hate ANY Muslim who misrepresents Islam.

peace,

deen**

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

deen:

USCatholic is so desperate to paint a bad image of Islam thru his postings. Only retarded people will buy this style of argument…

…What do you expect? Perhaps you misunderstood me. My statement is not meant to be an offense to mentally retarded persons…

Sir or Madam,

Your reply is ambiguous. In responding to a previous correspondent, you have made a despicable statement about mentally retarded persons. You say your statement is not meant to be an offense to mentally retarded persons, but neither do you seem to retract it. Will you retract this statement about retarded persons, or should I ask a moderator for an opinion?

 

[cargopilot]

GregoryPalamas:

USCatholic is simply pointing out some unavodable realities about Islam that many would like to pretend aren’t there.

So true!

I don’t believe that USCatholic is making up any of his quotes. If this is the teaching of Islam, it’s good to know the WHOLE picture. In general, Christians tend to be very forgiving and tolerant. We want to believe that most people are good, so we often choose not to see the dark side.

I’m just an average Joe, trying to raise my family, pay my bills and live my life as a ‘good’ Catholic. I don’t want to worry that someone wants to kill me and my family because we’re not Islamics. I have a very hard time comprehending any ‘religion’ that has, at the core, some pretty hate-filled doctrines relating to those of other faiths.

I’ll make no bones about it…Islam scares me and my family. I’m in a fair position to be blown-up and I don’t want to die in the name of Allah.

 

[Contarini]

GregoryPalamas:

Edwin,

That is just nonsense.

I realize looking back at the thread that I have made one serious blooper. Since USCatholic (#115) came to the defense of the statement by BobCatholic (#9) which I originally criticized, I got mixed up and thought he had made the original statement.

Nonetheless, both statements are indefensible. Let me remind you of them:

BobCatholic said that there was a “humongous silence” from the mullahs on/after Sept. 11, 2001. I showed that this was false–that many Muslims condemned the attacks. In particular, I cited the chief imam of one of the leading centers of Islamic law and theology in the world, the Al-Azhar mosque in Cairo.

USCatholic responded by saying that the imam, Dr. Muhammad Sayd Tantawy, was speaking out of cowardice and fear of American might.

Which of these statements do you defend? That there was a “humongous silence,” or that the documented response of Dr. Tantawy was insincere? These are the statements to which I was referring. USCatholic has made many other statements that I have problems with, but I haven’t engaged him on them all. And I certainly don’t disagree with everything he has said.

If you think what I am saying is nonsense then you must be willing to defend USCatholic’s mind-reading claims about Dr. Tantawy. Because that is what I’m responding to.

GregoryPalamas:

There are many Muslims who have throughout history denied parts of the Qur’an and much of the history of Islam and have become very fine people. Mistaken in their beliefs but very fine people.

You don’t need to deny parts of the Qur’an to be a fine person, any more than we need to deny the Book of Joshua, or the Apocalypse’s account of the torment of the wicked, or Jesus’ comparison of God to a ruler torturing a slave, in order to be fine people. There are faithful ways to interpret troubling texts so as not to deny the goodness of God.

GregoryPalamas:

USCatholic is simply pointing out some unavodable realities about Islam that many would like to pretend aren’t there.

I’m criticizing one specific issue. However, I think you’re making a serious mistake in defending any of USCatholic’s rants. Sure, some of the issues he raises are real ones. But they’re mixed with so much out-of-context prooftexting and unnecessary vitriol that he has no credibility whatsoever. I continue to be amazed at the ease with which people adopt double standards. Hasn’t it occurred to anyone that one can pick out troubling passages from the Bible and Catholic Tradition as well?

GregoryPalamas:

You don’t wish the recent behavior of many Episcopalians exposed here do you?

Dan L

How is this relevant? In fact, Episcopalians have not recently killed people, so on the whole I think the issues being discussed here make our problems look like small potatoes.

Again, the double standard is quite astounding. If we start digging up dirt on each other’s churches, do you really think the Catholic Church will get off scot free?

Edwin

 

[cargopilot]

Joseph Bilodeau:

Sir or Madam,

Your reply is ambiguous. In responding to a previous correspondent, you have made a despicable statement about mentally retarded persons. You say your statement is not meant to be an offense to mentally retarded persons, but neither do you seem to retract it. Will you retract this statement about retarded persons, or should I ask a moderator for an opinion?

Please, don’t hit the ‘button’ on deen.

It could be better just to let him go on. Then, everyone can see what kind of people we’re dealing with. Let him defend his beliefs with whatever he’s got. I think most folks here can sort out the name calling from a good argument.

 

[The_Eurasian]

cargopilot:

Please, don’t hit the ‘button’ on deen.

It could be better just to let him go on. Then, everyone can see what kind of people we’re dealing with. Let him defend his beliefs with whatever he’s got. I think most folks here can sort out the name calling from a good argument.

I too say please don’t hit the button on Deen. At least you’ve already told him not to disrespect people regardless of IQ.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

cargopilot:

Please, don’t hit the ‘button’ on deen…

As you asked me on his behalf, I will not… at this time.

(Cargopilot, you do realize, of course, that by interceding for deen, you have demonstrated what happens when we ask the Saints to intercede for us. )

cargopilot:

…It could be better just to let him go on. Then, everyone can see what kind of people we’re dealing with. Let him defend his beliefs with whatever he’s got. I think most folks here can sort out the name calling from a good argument.

Personal to deen:

I do take very seriously slanders against mentally retarded persons, and if you are a lady or gentleman of character, I still expect you to explicitly and unambiguously retract your prior characterization of those persons.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

The issue of deen’s allusion to “retarded” persons is to me a non issue. He criticized USCatholic for not being reasonable.

The real issue is deen’s obsfucation and now Edwin’s.

Edwin compares comments about war in the Hebrew Scriptures with what contemparary barbarity committed by the Church?

Deen tries to deny the Islam behaves like the Qur’an instructs Islam to behave and still tries to hold up the Qur’an as the pure word of God and instructive for today.

Many Muslims have reinterpreted their religion is such a way as to be a pretty descent religion as religions go. Others obviously have not. USCatholic is simply pointing out the obvious connection between the behavior that is committed by some and tolerated by others within Islam and the Qur’an.

Modern day Islam has an enormous and troubling task on its hands in trying to put down the lunatics in its midst who regular kill people and plot the deaths of others while at the same time interpretting the Qur’an in a civilized manner.

Givin the existence of the Shariah and the Dhimma and the doctrine of dar al harb I don’t know how they will accomplish that.

Dan L

 

[Contarini]

GregoryPalamas:

Edwin compares comments about war in the Hebrew Scriptures with what contemparary barbarity committed by the Church?

I’m not sure what the point of that question is. If your point is that the Catholic Church doesn’t approve of religious violence any more, then of course you’re right. But two points need to be made:

1: The Catholic Church is a centralized institution, so one can distinguish between what the Church does and what Catholics do. There’s no disputing that Catholics committed horrible atrocities in Croatia in WWII, and that the people committing these atrocities thought they were doing them in the service of their religion–also that the Catholic hierarchy, while condemning the atrocities, continued to support the regime. If we’re simply talking about what Catholics do, then Northern Ireland and Rwanda are also relevant.

2: It’s not clear to me what sort of point is being made when you rule out of court what Catholics have done in the past, while making a big issue out of the fact that Muslims still do this stuff. So Muslims are more old-fashioned than Catholics. Is this a knock-down argument against Islam? The only way this kind of argument works is if you buy a radical doctrine of progress according to which one automatically expects radical moral improvement as time goes on, as a matter of course. I don’t buy this, and I don’t see how any orthodox Christian can.

GregoryPalamas:

Many Muslims have reinterpreted their religion is such a way as to be a pretty descent religion as religions go. Others obviously have not. USCatholic is simply pointing out the obvious connection between the behavior that is committed by some and tolerated by others within Islam and the Qur’an.

That is simply not true. USCatholic is making vast generalizations about Islam as a whole, and he is expressing himself in a thoroughly vitriolic manner.

GregoryPalamas:

Modern day Islam has an enormous and troubling task on its hands in trying to put down the lunatics in its midst who regular kill people and plot the deaths of others while at the same time interpretting the Qur’an in a civilized manner.

That’s absolutely true. They do have considerable assistance from their own tradition, which on the whole is more rational and humane than the version of Islam being propounded by radical militants today. But certainly that isn’t enough–any more than it has been for us. Some degree of aggiornamento is necessary.

GregoryPalamas:

Givin the existence of the Shariah and the Dhimma and the doctrine of dar al harb I don’t know how they will accomplish that.

Dan L

The Shari’ah is a problem inasmuch as it gives such specific guidelines, which are grounded in early medieval Arab culture.

The bigger problem is Islam’s lack of any church/state distinction. On the other hand, that’s a problem from a Christian point of view or a secular point of view. Our tension between church and society has certainly had plenty of problems of its own. Islam cannot become a good citizen of modern secular society without radical change–that’s for certain. Whether as Christians we should be hoping it will make such a change is another question–we ourselves certainly have been tempted at times to make far too many accommodations to modern secularism. I respect the Islamic understanding of the unity of society (which involves the conceptions of dhimmitude and the Dar al-Harb), while I disagree with it as a Christian and I think it makes Muslims in some sense our enemies, necessarily. That is to say, without a radical modernization (which I’m not sure I can in good conscience hope for since I would abhor such a radical change within Christianity), Muslims are necessarily committed to a goal (the imposition of Islamic law throughout the world) which I am necessarily committed (both as a Christian and as a member of Western democratic society) to opposing.

Still, it might be that Muslims can make this transition without compromising their faith. Jihad was, after all, originally declared against autocratic regimes that did not believe in religious liberty. Perhaps they can rethink the concept. It’s for them to figure out, though of course we will necessarily be watching with bated breath.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[deen]

Joseph Bilodeau:

Sir or Madam,

Your reply is ambiguous. In responding to a previous correspondent, you have made a despicable statement about mentally retarded persons. You say your statement is not meant to be an offense to mentally retarded persons, but neither do you seem to retract it. Will you retract this statement about retarded persons, or should I ask a moderator for an opinion?

It’s a pity that you misunderstood my statement. anyway, for peace sake, I am retracting it.

peace,

deen

 

[Maryam_V]

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +

I too say please don’t hit the button on Deen. At least you’ve already told him not to disrespect people regardless of IQ.

I think was meant by deen was that the ones who will buy USCatholic’s lies about Islam - hook, line and sinker are only those who don’t think - nothing is meant to disrespect anyone. He has retracted his statement nevertheless. Now you are happy you’ve told him not to disrespect people, when will it be told then to others not to disrespect a person whom billions regard as a prophet of God?

Maryam V.

 

[cargopilot]

Maryam V.:

I think was meant by deen was that the ones who will buy USCatholic’s lies about Islam - hook, line and sinker are only those who don’t think - .

Aren’t most of USCatholic’s “lies” simply QUOTES from Islam. After all, he is quoting sources for all his “lies”. Most of his “lies” have actual book and page references. Other “lies” have actual links to Islamic websites. So are they really USCatholic’s “lies”?

 

[tmaconway]

I want to thank USCatholic for the tremendous service that he has done posting the words of Islam for us all to see.
You Christians here need to open your eyes. Islam spreads by force and by lies.

“Peace be upon you” - please spare me.

I sure hope some imam somewhere doesn’t get a wild hair and issue a fatwah against me or USCatholic for daring to speak the truth.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

cargopilot:

Aren’t most of USCatholic’s “lies” simply QUOTES from Islam. After all, he is quoting sources for all his “lies”. Most of his “lies” have actual book and page references. Other “lies” have actual links to Islamic websites. So are they really USCatholic’s “lies”?

The problem here that I sense (and let me know if anyone else detects this) is that we are dealing with a sort of Eastern Sola Scriptura with the Koran. That is, someone will state x about Islam from an Islamic source, people appropriately find it distasteful, then a Islamic defender will come on and say this not the true teaching. Well, who gets to decide? Why do they get to decide? How do we know they won’t change their mind when the first light breeze comes through?

Scott

 

[deen]

USCatholic:

MUHAMMAD -hell-be-upon-him- PROPHET OF RACISM:

RACISM
**

What the Bible Says**

Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of its wine, **he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. ** Ham the father of Canaan, saw his father’s nakedness and told how two brothers outside…

When Noah awoke frim his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, he said, " **Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers." ** (Genesis 9:20-25)

The (Canaanite) woman came and knelt before him .“Lord, help me!” she said. He (Jesus) replied," **It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs." ** (Matthew 15:25,26)

Note: It is unbelievable that Jesus said this statement.

You may charge a **foriegner ** interest, but not a brother Israelite…(Deuteronomy 23:20)

What the Qur’an Says

O mankind! We have created you from a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you with Allah is that who is the **most pious of you. ** Verily, Allah is All-Knowing. All-Aware. (Qur’an 49:13)

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said:

"O people! Your God is one and your forefather (Adam) is one . An arab is not better than a non-Arab and a non-Arab is not better than an Arab, and a red (i.e. white) person is not better than a black person and black person is not better than a red person except in piety."

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the first one to practice this teaching.He treated his Companions equally, the rich, the poor, Arabs and non-Arabs. Bilal the Ethiopian, Suhaib the Roman and Salman the Persian were among the Prophet’s closest Companions. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

"Salman (the Persian) is one of the family."

deen

---

**“The extinction of race consciousness as between Muslims is one of the outstanding achievements of Islam, and in the contemporary world there is, as it happens, a crying need for the propagation of this Islamic virtue.” **

A.J. Toynbee, CIVILIZATION ON TRIAL, New York, 1948, p.205.

**“It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher.” **

Annie Besant, THE LIFE AND TEACHINGS OF MUHAMMAD, Madras,1932, p. 4.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

deen:

…I am retracting it…

Retraction accepted. Thank you for your courteous reply.
Maryam V.:

…Now you are happy you’ve told him not to disrespect people, when will it be told then to others not to disrespect a person whom billions regard as a prophet of God?..

Maryam V,

My happiness is not relevant and was not a factor in my objection. If you think someone here has behaved inappropriately, you also are entitled to challenge this person’s behavior; and if you do not get get a satisfactory response, you also are entitled to ask for a moderator’s opinion.