This question is for Protestants only. What do you have against Mary?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Brony4life
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
PRmerger said:
And that is why millions of Protestants have an impoverished understanding of Christ.
Click to expand...
I still have no idea what you’re talking about. Diminished how?
Incidentally, the ONLY way you know Jesus was divine is because the Catholic Church proclaimed this for you.
Click to expand...
Yes, but in the absence of the Church, the Bible says so. Not so with Mary’s immaculate conception, sinlessness, or assumption.
 
I have nothing against the Virgin Mary after all she is the Mother of God. I believe that she was ever-virgin, but I don’t believe that she was born without sin or that we should pray to her or the Saints to intercede for us, but I do believe that the Saints and all in heaven pray for us .
 
mpartyka said:
A perpetual, visible halo over Mary’s head 24/7? Over the top.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with these “over the top” concepts proclaimed in the Bible, mpartyka?

Check out Acts 5:15.

And Acts 19:11-12.

Or are you of the position that God is incapable of assigning to his saints “over the top” qualities?

I find it curious that a Christian–someone whose entire theology is based on the resurrection of a person–could find a halo so unbelievable.

Incarnation. Over the top.
Resurrection. Over the top.

Halo? Not so much over the top. Pretty mundane, actually. 🤷
 
mpartyka said:
Or maybe it tells us that the value of the vessel comes not from itself but from what it contains?
Click to expand...
Exactly.

That is another way of saying what has been proclaimed earlier here: each and every teaching on Mary only serves to enhance and highlight our understanding of Christ.

The value of the vessel of Mary comes not from itself but from what she carried.

I like how you put it, mpartyka. Eloquently said. 👍

PRmerger likes. 🙂

“The value of the vessel comes not from itself but from what it contained.” Mary.
 
MaryT777 said:
I have NEVER met one person in a Catholic Church who felt Mary was divine or
MORE RIDICULOUS the 4th person of the Trinity.
How ignorant of Catholicism.
Mary.
Click to expand...
About 4 years ago, while I was on another forum with mostly Catholic members, a Catholic member from Belgium did talk about Mary as a sort of fourth person of the “Trinity”. He posted an article from a Catholic source proposing this idea.

Another Catholic—the moderator, actually— expressed exasperation at the man who brought up the idea. But, anyway, I remember being very surprised and disconcerted at the time that my Catholic friend from Belgium would entertain such a concept.
 
mpartyka said:
Jesus-] is stil/-]l could still be the God-Man whether Mary is sinless or not.
Click to expand...
Sure. No one has argued to the contrary.

But Mary being sinless only highlights His Divinity.
What matters isn’t whether her sinlessness would affirm Jesus’ divinity. What matters is whether her sinfulness would deny Jesus’ divinity. And to millions of Christians, it clearly does not.
Click to expand...
It certainly makes it harder to provide apologia for His Divinity if He Who Could Not Be Contained was contained in this:

http://d2qss72tiioiku.cloudfront.net/image/190x190/dirty-bottle-27220.jpg?1266335377
 
AbideWithMe said:
About 4 years ago, while I was on another forum with mostly Catholic members, a Catholic member from Belgium did talk about Mary as a sort of fourth person of the “Trinity”. He posted an article from a Catholic source proposing this idea.
Click to expand...
Clearly this Catholic, and the author of the putative article, had divorced themselves from the Faith.
 
mpartyka said:
I still have no idea what you’re talking about. Diminished how?
Click to expand...
Well, if you tell me what denomination of Christian you are I can answer this.

Right now, as there are over tens of thousands of differing Christian denominations, I am at a disadvantage as to how to know what theology you espouse.
Yes, but in the absence of the Church, the Bible says so. Not so with Mary’s immaculate conception, sinlessness, or assumption.
Click to expand...
There can be no Bible without the Church, so what you are saying is as nonsensical as saying, “In the absence of Shakespeare, Romeo still proclaimed his love for Juliet.”
 
PRmerger said:
Clearly this Catholic, and the author of the putative article, had divorced themselves from the Faith.
Click to expand...
No, he hadn’t…I think he was more or less looking to see how far the devotion to Mary could be taken. The moderator, whom he respected, firmly told him that he was going too far, as was the article he posted.
 
mpartyka said:
Yes, but in the absence of the Church, the Bible says so. Not so with Mary’s immaculate conception, sinlessness, or assumption.
Click to expand...
In the absence of the Church you have no Bible.

Some early Christians didn’t think Christ’s divinity was so clear - hence the discussion at Nicea, and later Chalcedon, and PR’s comment that “the ONLY way you know Jesus was divine is because the Catholic Church proclaimed this for you.”

I find it somewhat humorous when some protestants (not saying you mpartyka), pretend that there were no heresies or controversies in early Christianity, no councils to settle matters – it is as if all doctrine, including the canon, became fully formed in the year 33 AD.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]
 
PRmerger said:
Sure. No one has argued to the contrary.

But Mary being sinless only highlights His Divinity.

It certainly makes it harder to provide apologia for His Divinity if He Who Could Not Be Contained was contained in this:

http://d2qss72tiioiku.cloudfront.net/image/190x190/dirty-bottle-27220.jpg?1266335377
Click to expand...
PR, If I may, are we not, sinful, unclean vessels when we accept Christ and he comes into our hearts? Jesus makes us clean. Why, then, is it so hard to entertain the idea that He did the same with Mary? And, on a footnote, I have not been in the LCMS for very long. I still have much to learn, so when I speak, it is more my own beliefs rather than the Church.
 
AbideWithMe said:
No, he hadn’t…I think he was more or less looking to see how far the devotion to Mary could be taken. The moderator, whom he respected, firmly told him that he was going too far, as was the article he posted.
Click to expand...
You stated that another Catholic (the moderator) offered some correction for your friend, who was in error. Surely this left you with the impression that Catholicism does not teach that Mary is the 4th person of the Trinity, yes?
 
batman1973 said:
PR, If I may, are we not, sinful, unclean vessels when we accept Christ and he comes into our hearts? Jesus makes us clean. Why, then, is it so hard to entertain the idea that He did the same with Mary? And, on a footnote, I have not been in the LCMS for very long. I still have much to learn, so when I speak, it is more my own beliefs rather than the Church.
Click to expand...
You understand that Jesus does not actually crawl through your aorta and live in your heart muscle…?
 
stewstew03 said:
You stated that another Catholic (the moderator) offered some correction for your friend, who was in error. Surely this left you with the impression that Catholicism does not teach that Mary is the 4th person of the Trinity, yes?
Click to expand...
Certainly it did. But I also knew long before that that Catholicism doesn’t teach that Mary is the fourth person of the Trinity. I was responding to Mary’s post that she had never seen a Catholic promote this idea of the Trinity, by telling of my experience. The “Mary as fourth member” idea is out there—in more ways than one!—among some Catholics. I have no doubt it’s a very rare idea, thankfully.
 
Radical said:
hmmm…please tell me how exactly this works (in your mind). At your Eucharist you believe that the body of the Lord is taken entirely into your mouth…you are then the alleged vessel of the Lord, just as Mary was the vessel of the Lord (though the womb is perhaps a more “honourable” location than the mouth, esophagus, and gut). You are not sinless and the millions of other Catholics all over the world that participate in your Eucharist aren’t sinless (and some are extremely depraved)…Let’s say that, on average, one out of a hundred Catholics particpates in the Eucharist each day and that the Lord’s body persists for a minute in each case…we then have the Lord’s body (cumulatively) residing in a non-sinless person 10 million minutes/day…as opposed to 400,000 minutes for Mary’s pregnancy…so what gives? How is it so impossible for Jesus to spend about 400,000 minutes in the womb of a sinner and yet spend far, far more time in the mouths and guts of sinners each and every day?
Click to expand...
My brother stewstew provided you with a well articulated answer. And just to segue from that I will add:

[SIGN]I am indeed sinless when I receive the Eucharist.[/SIGN]

You ought to know by now, after being on this forum (and we’ve already had this discussion before anyway, Radical), that our sins are forgiven during the Penitential rite at each and every Divine Liturgy.

So unless one is approaching the Eucharist with mortal sin on his soul (something no Catholic ought to do), he is, indeed, a fitting vessel for the Lord.
 
batman1973 said:
PR, If I may, are we not, sinful, unclean vessels when we accept Christ and he comes into our hearts? Jesus makes us clean. Why, then, is it so hard to entertain the idea that He did the same with Mary? And, on a footnote, I have not been in the LCMS for very long. I still have much to learn, so when I speak, it is more my own beliefs rather than the Church.
Click to expand...
I think the story in Acts 10 of Peter’s vision —“Do not call anything impure that God has made clean”----illustrates this. After the vision, Peter was sent to the “impure” Gentile Cornelius who received the Holy Spirit—God----and was made clean by His entrance.
 
batman1973 said:
PR, If I may, are we not, sinful, unclean vessels when we accept Christ and he comes into our hearts? Jesus makes us clean. Why, then, is it so hard to entertain the idea that He did the same with Mary? And, on a footnote, I have not been in the LCMS for very long. I still have much to learn, so when I speak, it is more my own beliefs rather than the Church.
Click to expand...
There’s a difference between the Real Presence of Christ, present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the Eucharist, and asking Jesus into our hearts.

Think of the difference between this: being fully present to your wife, physically in the same room with her, vs saying (while you are away on a business trip, for example): “My wife is present with me always, in my heart, even when I’m away.”

For the former it’s fitting for you to be clean and groomed, right? (At least, I hope so you wish to be). For the latter, it makes no difference what your personal hygiene is–she’s still present “in your heart.”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top