This Wednesday, 8/6/2008, I will be leaving communion with the Roman Catholic Church

[Lapell]

Like the doctrine of the Assomption of Mary (which is called the Dormition in Eastern Churches) promulgated in 1950… Does it mean that no Catholic nor Orthodox had ever believed that Mary, at the end of her terrestrial existence , was “assumed into Heaven” in her body as well as in her soul? Come on!
It simply had to be put into writing when it was!

 

[Lapell]

Most doctrines were defined when heresies about that particular doctrine were rampant, but not only then, I think…

 

[spauline]

What you are refering to where all heresies which were all squashed by the Church through the Power of the Holy Spirit. Your comparison to them with the more than 30,000 Protestant Churches holds no water…the Catholic Church has been unable to squash them…why? Some would say because the Catholic Church is no longer being directed by the Holy Spirit since she left the Church. But you can draw your own conclusion as to why that is.

neither has Orthodoxy conquered atheism in the former communist countries.

Listen to hypocrisy: for the fruits of secular apostasy exist in both east and west, in the east, atheism, in the west, relativism.

Is it not rather that God cannot heal all deficiencies until they reach their peak? Is it not that the fallen nature must spew up utter depravity before the fullness of light can restored? Just as the sun must fully set before it fully rises?

yes, that is it. Therefore, things needed to get as bad as they can get before the triumph of the Gospel in history.

hence, does history show forth the Catholic truth. For there are seven great stages in the last 1700 years, and they follow the Catholic sources of truth from top to bottom.

Here is the Catholic pyramid of sources of truth, and the dragon has started at the top and worked his way down:

The Trinity and Incarnation
Peter
The General Bishops and Oral Tradition
Scripture
Reason

So then, look at history:

the first two stages are attack the Trinity and Incarnation partially (most heresies between Constantine and Islam), then attack the Trinity and Incarnation fully (Islam)

the next stage attacks Peter (the Great Schism)

The fourth stage is the moral fall of the Catholic clergy

The fifth stage is Protestantism, which rejects not only Peter, but the the whole of Tradition, retaining only Scripture.

The sixth stage is the Enlightenment, which rejects Scripture and all Divine Revelation and retains only reason

The final stage is the modern Secular apostasy, which casts aside all sources of truth, even Reason.

And there are seven trumpets. And who is protected? Those with the Seal, faithful Catholics.

 

[Christy74]

the falseness of Orthodoxy is shown in her treatment of human sexuality, that is, their allowance of artificial birth control and divorce and remarriage.

In time, the Minor Chastisement shall show the errors of Orthodox, and their need of the Rock, which is Peter.

Spauline,

The Orthodox Church is against artificial birth control and abortion. If I had the Canons here at work, I’d sight it for you. If you are interested, you can investigate it on you own and you will find it.

Divorce and remarriage: even Jesus in the New Testament gave reason why divorce would be permitted.

The Orthodox Church takes marriage VERY Seriously, but like Jesus, is merciful in forgiving all types of sin, even divorce, allows for remarriage.

The exception to remarriage is for Priests as they are held to a higher standard as spiritual fathers to many if they divorce or even if their spouse dies, they are not allowed to remarry. And likely because it would certainly be scandlous for a priest to “date”.

Best Wishes,
Christy

 

[Lapell]

What you are refering to where all heresies which were all squashed by the Church through the Power of the Holy Spirit. Your comparison to them with the more than 30,000 Protestant Churches holds no water…the Catholic Church has been unable to squash them…

Have the heresies really been “squashed” forever? They were declared heresies (errors), but many people even then still hanged on them. And so they did not quite disappear… they are still existing today,BTW! Maybe under other names… I think you are rather “romantic” about the actual “power” of declaration of heresies…

 

[spauline]

Spauline,

The Orthodox Church is against artificial birth control and abortion. If I had the Canons here at work, I’d sight it for you. If you are interested, you can investigate it on you own and you will find it.

Divorce and remarriage: even Jesus in the New Testament gave reason why divorce would be permitted.

The Orthodox Church takes marriage VERY Seriously, but like Jesus, is merciful in forgiving all types of sin, even divorce, allows for remarriage.

The exception to remarriage is for Priests as they are held to a higher standard as spiritual fathers to many if they divorce or even if their spouse dies, they are not allowed to remarry. And likely because it would certainly be scandlous for a priest to “date”.

Best Wishes,
Christy

divorce is a symbol of schism. so why is it the Catholic Church, who is presumably in schism, cannot accept divorce in any sacramental marriage, just as there can never be separation between Christ the Bridegroom and the Bride, whereas those who presumably have the true unity allow divorce?

It is because the spiritual problems eventually manifest in the physical.

For your information, SOME Orthodox approve of ABC.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 1364 §1. … an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication…

Anyone who intentionally departs from communion with the Roman Catholic Church, and joins any of the Eastern Orthodox Churches not in communion with the Roman Pontiff (or certainly any of the Protestant Communities) commits the objective mortal sin of schism and is automatically excommunicated.

Anyone who departs from the Catholic Church to become a Mormon, or Jehovah’s Witness, or to join any religion claiming to be Christian but lacking a valid Sacrament of Baptism, commits the objective mortal sin of apostasy and is automatically excommunicated.

Anyone who departs from the Catholic Church to become a Jew or Muslim likewise commits the objective mortal sin of apostasy and is automatically excommunicated.

 

[Christophorus72]

So if I were to say that Buddhism has some teachings that are not true…you would consider this Buddhism bashing. Only God can help you with your line of reasoning and I pray He will.

Christy74,

I do really wish you well and hope you find peace in your new found faith.

But come on, comments such as “Rome would have to do so much back stepping in renouncing the heresies she currently embraces” and “Rome has already begun back stepping in regards to the doctrine of Limbo (which I had to laugh at anyway ) which is a definate start.” were meant to be a swipe at the RCC.

Somehow, I don’t believe you were interested in discussion based on these comments.

 

[Mickey]

Anyone who intentionally departs from communion with the Roman Catholic Church, and joins any of the Eastern Orthodox Churches not in communion with the Roman Pontiff (or certainly any of the Protestant Communities) commits the objective mortal sin of schism and is automatically excommunicated.

Ooh. Sticks and stones.

 

[Christy74]

Like the doctrine of the Assomption of Mary (which is called the Dormition in Eastern Churches) promulgated in 1950… Does it mean that no Catholic nor Orthodox had ever believed that Mary, at the end of her terrestrial existence , was “assumed into Heaven” in her body as well as in her soul? Come on!
It simply had to be put into writing when it was!

We are current in the Dormition Fast and will be celebrating the Dormition of the Theotokos on 8/15/2008. I would encourage you to visit an Orthodox Church and join in the celebration.

The Dormition and Assumption are slightly different but can refer to the same thing. Assumption according to Rome means that Mary was taken into Heaven, Body and Soul prior to her physical death. This is not what it means in Orthodoxy.

Orthodox have a strong Tradition of what happened to Mary both before she ever conceived Christ and after Christ’s Death, Ressurrection and Ascension.

To keep it short and sweet. At the end of her life all of the Apostles, except St. Thomas were miraculous taken to her bedside. They were all able to say their goodbyes, etc. Then she died peacefully. They buried her. After her burial, St. Thomas was miraculously brought to the same place. He was informed of her death. He was overwhelmed with grief and insisted on having the grave opened so he could see her one last time. They opened the grave and discovered that she had been taken into Heaven with her body.

This is what is believed in Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches.

 

[Mickey]

“Rome would have to do so much back stepping…”

“Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium.”
[Joseph Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology (San Francisco*, CA: Ignatius Press]**

 

[Mickey]

To keep it short and sweet. At the end of her life all of the Apostles, except St. Thomas were miraculous taken to her bedside. They were all able to say their goodbyes, etc. Then she died peacefully. They buried her. After her burial, St. Thomas was miraculously brought to the same place. He was informed of her death. He was overwhelmed with grief and insisted on having the grave opened so he could see her one last time. They opened the grave and discovered that she had been taken into Heaven with her body.

This is what is believed in Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches.

Yes.

 

[Christy74]

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 1364 §1. … an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication…

Anyone who intentionally departs from communion with the Roman Catholic Church, and joins any of the Eastern Orthodox Churches not in communion with the Roman Pontiff (or certainly any of the Protestant Communities) commits the objective mortal sin of schism and is automatically excommunicated.

Anyone who departs from the Catholic Church to become a Mormon, or Jehovah’s Witness, or to join any religion claiming to be Christian but lacking a valid Sacrament of Baptism, commits the objective mortal sin of apostasy and is automatically excommunicated.

Anyone who departs from the Catholic Church to become a Jew or Muslim likewise commits the objective mortal sin of apostasy and is automatically excommunicated.

Pope John Paul II constantly refered to the Eastern Orthodox as the Church’s “Other Lung” and considered all of the Eastern Orthodox Sacraments/Mysteries as valid!

I am excommunicating myself by choosing not to be in communion with Rome. This is a decision I have not taken lightly.

The negativity of Roman Catholisim is so sad. I’m glad that God is merciful even if the Roman Church isn’t.

It’s comments like these that make me happy about my decision. I am running into the arms of God, into the arms of Love and Mercy. Running into the rich Tradition of the Historical Church. Running into the positive Theology. Running into the Peace which surpases all understanding. Running to my Lord and Savior.

 

[water]

The negativity of Roman Catholisim is so sad. I’m glad that God is merciful even if the Roman Church isn’t.

I respect your decision on your faith journey but what do you mean by the statement above, Christy?

 

[Christy74]

Christy74,

I do really wish you well and hope you find peace in your new found faith.

But come on, comments such as “Rome would have to do so much back stepping in renouncing the heresies she currently embraces” and “Rome has already begun back stepping in regards to the doctrine of Limbo (which I had to laugh at anyway ) which is a definate start.” were meant to be a swipe at the RCC.

Somehow, I don’t believe you were interested in discussion based on these comments.

It’s not a swipe. It’s a fact.

How could they possibly become in union with one another without unity in dogma and doctrine?

Such a union without unity is clearly not working for the Eastern Catholic Churches.

 

[Christy74]

I respect your decision on your faith journey but what do you mean by the statement above, Christy?

It’s a comment based on that poster’s comment. He/She has basically condemned me to Hell for becoming Orthodox. Citing Roman Catholic Canon to do so. Attempting to insight fear into me to remain Catholic.

In Orthodoxy, we allow God to be judge of salvation. Orthodox has such a positive view of salvation. A view which I’ve not found in any Catholic or Protestant Theology.

That’s what makes me sad.

 

[Christy74]

“Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium.”
*[Joseph Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology (

San Francisco**, CA: Ignatius Press]**

Cool, so they are being to step back on Papal Supremacy too! Perhaps there is hope for union in my life time!

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

I pray that your entering into the Orthodox church will lead you back into the fullness of truth found only within the Catholic Church.

Sometimes God works that way; He does it all the time with cradle Catholics who have become lukewarm who leave the Church only to come back with 10x more zeal.

God Bless

 

[anon52328184]

i hope your bubble will not be burst!!

i wouldn’t put the orthodox church on too high of a pedostal.

you will only be setting yourself up for disappointment.

reality will still be reality no matter which church you are in.

 

[sola_scriptura]

The Lutheran and Episcopalian view? Where in the official doctrinal statements of either group is Mary’s sinlessness affirmed?

Apostolic succession? Again, where in any Lutheran confessional statements is apostolic succession as Rome or the Anglican church teaches affirmed? I haven’t seen any major Lutheran Synods attempting to foister notions of apostolic succession. If they have, they are contradicting the confessions of our faith. What is your definition of barely Protestant? Is rejection of everything in the 1517 years prior to the Reformation fully Protestant?

The point is both the Lutheran and Anglican Communion (particularly the Anglican Communion) have pursued ecumenical relations with Rome toward a goal of unification. The Anglican Communion claims Apostolic Succession, as does the UMC, as the concept is defined by Rome and the Orthodox church.

When I look back to the earliest and most reliable writings from early Christianity it is clear that the church, as an organization unit, was local in nature. The head of the church is viewed as Christ Himself, who is revealed through His words and those of His followers contained in Scripture. Therefore, the church is visible in terms of both the collective of the faithful and local churches. However, our governance is “invisible” because it is Christ Himself. The only visible manifestation of Jesus we are left with is the word.

My objection to the general Catholic view begins in our different views regarding the role of Peter, and the meaning of his commission by Christ.

I believe this erroneous understanding of the meaning of Peter’s commission forms the basis the all the error that followed. As far as history this error seems to begin with Irenaeus. Who as an alleged one time student of Polycarp came to ultimately disagree with his teacher (compare the views of Irenaeus regarding Roman supremacy with the views of Polycarp regarding Presbyterian church governance as expressed in his letter to the Philippians) and the early Christian writers of the Didache (see in particular chap. 15 of that document).

The entire notion of grace based salvation changed markedly between Polycarp and the contemporary Latin and Eastern churches. This early view as expressed most forcibly by Paul (and Polycarp) has underwent various mutations at the hands of Catholic theologians.

So in sum these form the basis for my objections.