This Wednesday, 8/6/2008, I will be leaving communion with the Roman Catholic Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter Christy74
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hum… Paul, I don’t wish to contradict you, but I believe Andrew WAS Simon Peter’s elder brother… Wait a minute! All I find is “his brother”… it doesn’t say younger or elder!
Or in which passage? 😊 :o 🙂 😃
That’s my point exactly! The bible never explicitly says whether Andrew was the elder or the younger brother. However, because the gospels always list Peter before Andrew it is generally assumed that Andrew was the younger of the two. That would be consistent with Semitic custom.

Paul
 
It’s a comment based on that poster’s comment. He/She has basically condemned me to Hell for becoming Orthodox. Citing Roman Catholic Canon to do so. Attempting to insight fear into me to remain Catholic.

In Orthodoxy, we allow God to be judge of salvation. Orthodox has such a positive view of salvation. A view which I’ve not found in any Catholic or Protestant Theology.

That’s what makes me sad.
I would be sad if I were you; however, that was one person’s opinion. I don’t know what the other person said and based on and I suppose that you don’t take one person’s words for it …but it is better to actually know what the Church teaches.
 
Paul,

You know, just as the New Testatment says, that Christian Tradition is both written and oral. If you are unable to locate a citation in the written Tradition (Sacred Scripture) than it is an oral Tradition which is just as valid. It’s been held generation to generation starting with people who know St. Andrew and St. Peter down to the present day just as accurately as if it had been written down - this is because of the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Best Wishes,
Christy
Fine, if you cannot cite scripture then cite a specific tradition that says Andrew was the elder brother. Do you have a quote from an Early Church Father or historian? I am really curious about this because I never heard anyone claim this before.

Paul
 
Cool, so they are being to step back on Papal Supremacy too! Perhaps there is hope for union in my life time!
I’ve been hearing rumblings about this – but I’m not sure what to make of it (since there seems to be so much misinformation out there). I heard that Pope Benedict made a statement that doctrine may only be formed by counsel and not through the unilateral declaration of a Pope, but again I’m not sure if this is true.

This would seem to be a tidal wave reversal of earlier teachings, at least practically speaking. Many of the doctrines concerning Mary were not formed by counsel, but rather by earlier Popes invoking infallibility.

This whole issue seems very clouded because it’s really hard to pin down Rome. They seem to go through elaborate attempts at retaining ambiguity in these areas to leave the door open, just in case an earlier doctrine is shown to be erroneous. This to me smacks of intellectual dishonesty.

This is my core problem with over-reliance on so called tradition. When we look to extra-scriptural sources and sources grossly attenuated from the apostles themselves, a slippery slope develops.

It is useful to look to early Christian writings, for example Polycarp and the Didache. In particular the case for Polycarp is uniquely strong, since authorship of his work is not in dispute. Part of those early writings gives us important information regarding Ecclesiology.
 
divorce is a symbol of schism. so why is it the Catholic Church, who is presumably in schism, cannot accept divorce in any sacramental marriage, just as there can never be separation between Christ the Bridegroom and the Bride, whereas those who presumably have the true unity allow divorce?

It is because the spiritual problems eventually manifest in the physical.
QUOTE]

You seem to be splitting hairs with divorce.

The Roman Catholic Church accepts as valid more reasons for annulment of marriages than the Eastern Orthodox accept for valid reasons for divorce.

There are likely more remarried practicing Catholics (by way of annulment) than there are remarried practicing Orthodox.

You may find a book on Annulments and what is consider a valid reason for one very interesting. I know I did.
 
Assumption according to Rome means that Mary was taken into Heaven, Body and Soul prior to her physical death. This is not what it means in Orthodoxy.
That is not what it means in Catholocism, either. According to the Catechism, “having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.” It doesn’t say she died one way or the other.
 
i hope your bubble will not be burst!!

i wouldn’t put the orthodox church on too high of a pedostal.

you will only be setting yourself up for disappointment.

reality will still be reality no matter which church you are in.
She’ll be fine. I took Christy’s journey last year. It was the best thing that ever happened to me and my family. It is okay to put Christ’s Church on a pedestal–that is where it belongs. 🙂
 
At least the Eastern Church hasn’t deviated as far from Biblical truth as the Latin Church has.
Oh? I’ve started a thread on how you Protestants succeeded where Christ and His Apostles failed.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=258291
As far as I know, while holding a view similar to the Lutheran, Episcopalian, and RCC view that Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin you haven’t gone as far as to declare the immaculate conception as part of your doctrine – so there’s still hope.
Right on all counts, so there’s still hope.👍
Frankly, Lutherans and Episcopalians are barely protestants.
yes, they have an awareness that the Bible didn’t drop from the sky in front of them, and they received Christ from someone. Romans 10:8-15. As I quote on the thread linked above, St. Clement, ordained by the Apostles themselves, writes that God sent Christ, Christ sent the Apostles and the Apostles sent the bishops to succeed them, so the order is the same.
They’ve been coddling up to Rome for decades, groveling for a bite at the apostolic succession apple.The whole idea of apostolic succession as its framed by both the Eastern and Western churches is just wrong. Frankly so much is apparent since it is used in furtherance of organizational supremacy.
Luke 10:16 “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”

Consult Acts 20:17-37, where the Apostles hand the Church over to their successors, the bishops, for this reason that the Apostles left the bishops, that they would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as directed (Titus 1:15).
Just read Polycarp, who advocated Presbyterian church governance (in his epistle to the Philippians). Not that there’s anything unbiblical about the episcopate
I have. Can you be more specific? as St. Ignatius, who was ordained by the Apostles, wrote a letter to St. Polycarp, who was ordained by the Apostles, and to his see, Smyrna, in which he says among other things “Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.” — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8.

As I point out in the above linked thread, these bishops appointed by the Apostles claim and accept this description of the hierarchy of Church. The Biblical decription of it. (indeed, St. Polycarp says, referring to St. Ignatius, in the letter you cite: “I have greatly rejoiced with you in our Lord Jesus Christ, because ye have received the patterns of true love and have accompanied, as became you, those who were bound in chains, the fitting ornaments of saints, and which are indeed the diadems of the true elect of God and our Lord…I exhort you all, therefore, to yield obedience to the word of righteousness, and to exercise all patience, such as ye have seen [set] before your eyes, not only in the case of the blessed Ignatius, and Zosimus, and Rufus, but also in others among yourselves, and in Paul himself, and the rest of the apostles. [This do] in the assurance that all these have not run in vain, but in faith and righteousness, and that they are [now] in their due place in the presence of the Lord, with whom also they suffered. For they loved not this present world, but Him who died for us, and for our sakes was raised again by God from the dead…Both you and Ignatius wrote me…The Epistles of Ignatius written by him. to us, and all the rest [of his Epistles] which we have by us, we have sent to you, as you requested. They are subjoined to this Epistle, and by them ye may be greatly profited; for they treat of faith and patience, and all things that tend to edification in our Lord. Any more certain information you may have obtained respecting both Ignatius himself, and those that were with him, have the goodness to make known to us” From this it seems that it dates from just after Ignatius’ letters, of which St. Polycarp obvious approves, including St. Igantius’ views of the hierarchical nature of the Church. Btw. St. Polycarp’s martyrdom is an early witness to the cult of saints, which you seem to reject).

Btw, what do you do with I Timothy, which St. Polycarp quotes?

; however, what is unbiblical is how you define the “church of Christ.”
The idea pushed by the RCC (and the EOC) is that a visible church was in view when we see mention of “oneness” in scripture. Frankly the terms visible and invisible are nonsensical. As if believers are invisible. The church of God is found in Scripture and no where else.
Then you have a paper god.

The Church of Our God is the Body of Christ, and He is not the Invisible Man.
A plain understanding of Scripture is the only sound basis for church organization. When I read the earliest writings from those like Polycarp or the Didache it is clear that there were local churches with no central leadership. Elders, pastors, and deacons were chosen by the congregation. The laying of hands in ordination is a valid and right practice. However, the authority flows to church leaders from the congregation.
I Timothy 4:14 “Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the eldership” (i.e. the bishops, as Acts 20:17, 28 clarifies). No mention of the congregation. (Mark 3:13-4 ) "And He went up on the mountain and summoned those whom He Himself wanted, and they came to Him. And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach. (John 15:16) “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you may bear fruit” [btw. St. Clement, writing around the same time, calls the early bishops the first fruits of the Apostles]. (Luke 10:16) “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.” (Mark 4:11) And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables.” (Hebrews 5:4, 7:7) “And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was [Consult Numbers 12 for the consequences]…And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better” Can it be any plainer?
Once anointed authority is bestowed over the congregation (like a Shepard is to his flock).
Sheep choosing their shephard. Did the Good Shephard say that?

Note again Hebrews 7:7.
However, even then each Christian retains the duty to reproof the other in love.
True.
Church clergy (including elders or bishops) may be married
.

True
Icons may not be used in any way.
Already refuted.
Mary was a woman,
and that’s why Christ is a man, and why we are saved.
born into sin under the law,
Galatians 4:4-5: But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in order to redeem those who were under the law, and thus to adopt them as his children," "by Him, who knew no sin, be made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in Him (II Cor. 5:21).

So, what was your point about the Holy Theotokos, the Rod of Aaron that Bloosemed, the Jar of Manna which held the Bread of Life, the True Ark of God more honorable than the Cherubim, who held within her Him whom the Temple nor even the Heavens could not contain?
bestowed with grace at the annunciation.
The Feast of Which we sing: Today is the beginning of our salvation, The revelation of the eternal mystery! The Son of God becomes the Son of the Virgin, As Gabriel announces the coming of Grace. Together with him let us cry out to the Theotokos! Rejoice, O Full of Grace, the Lord is with you.

cont…
 
I work two jobs, so I don’t have time in the day to just leave work and go to the Church for Confession and on Monday night after Small Paraclesis, the priest and his wife had friends visiting them and so we decided it would be tomorrow after Small Paraclesis. Today was Great Paraclesis, but it was in the morning while I work.

There is no rush. The Orthodox Church has been around for 2,000 years and is not going anywhere. God Willing, I will be around a bit longer too. Orthodoxy is full of love and peace, there is no “do or die” like, “If I don’t join now and die tonight I will burn in hell forever” - it just doesn’t work that way. God knows my heart. I am patiently waiting to make what is in my heart “official”.
I think there are radical Roman Catholics everywhere, but the RCC doesn’t teach ‘do or die,’ tactics. If you are confident you have made the right choice to leave the Church–I wish you well on your journey. But, please don’t misrepresent the Roman Catholic Church and Her doctrine, as a representation of why you’re leaving. Because, clearly, that is a doctrine that doesn’t exist–do or die, or if you don’t ‘join tonight, you’re bound to Hell.’ That’s simply a falsehood that you’re posting…perhaps to justify your exodus from the Church. Again, this is your choice, and I pray that we will all be united some day soon! But, posting falsehoods about the Church will not bring unity–it just makes me wonder if a person who posts such falsehoods, knows what they are leaving.
:o
 
That’s my point exactly! The Bible never explicitly says whether Andrew was the elder or the younger brother. However, because the gospels always list Peter before Andrew it is generally assumed that Andrew was the younger of the two. That would be consistent with Semitic custom.

Paul
Church Tradition teaches us that St. Andrew is St. Peter’s older brother. Nov. 30th the Roman Catholic Church celebrates him and mentions him as St. Peter’s older brother. The Orthodox Church obviously also recognizes St. Andrew as he is the Founder of the Church of Constantinople (called Byzantium at the time). St. Andrew *is *the older brother.
 
You seem to be splitting hairs with divorce.

The Roman Catholic Church accepts as valid more reasons for annulment of marriages than the Eastern Orthodox accept for valid reasons for divorce.

There are likely more remarried practicing Catholics (by way of annulment) than there are remarried practicing Orthodox.

You may find a book on Annulments and what is consider a valid reason for one very interesting. I know I did.
there is an immeasurable difference. In the one case, what is being a said is, a sacramental marriage, that is supposed to image the indissoluble union between Christ and the Church, predestined by God, was nevertheless severed and the parties go on to remarry.

In the other case, it is found that from the beginning, there were impediments to a sacramental marriage, and hence the marriage never existed.

for once a marriage is truly contracted in the sacramental sense, the bond can never be dissolved by the Church or anyone, saving death of one of the spouses.

Big difference.

BTW, please comment about the ABC.

thanks.
 
I think there are radical Roman Catholics everywhere, but the RCC doesn’t teach ‘do or die,’ tactics. If you are confident you have made the right choice to leave the Church–I wish you well on your journey. But, please don’t misrepresent the Roman Catholic Church and Her doctrine, as a representation of why you’re leaving. Because, clearly, that is a doctrine that doesn’t exist–do or die, or if you don’t ‘join tonight, you’re bound to Hell.’ That’s simply a falsehood that you’re posting…perhaps to justify your exodus from the Church. Again, this is your choice, and I pray that we will all be united some day soon! But, posting falsehoods about the Church will not bring unity–it just makes me wonder if a person who posts such falsehoods, knows what they are leaving.
:o
I believe I was answering a Protestant. Many Protestants have a more do or die attitude.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that “There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.” Since the first Pope who said that, and particularly after Vatican II, the Catholic Church now “interprets” that statement to not really mean what it says, but that it means that: yes, there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church, but only because the Catholic Church exists in the world. It is quite a stretch from the original statement by one of the Popes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top