At least the Eastern Church hasn’t deviated as far from Biblical truth as the Latin Church has.
Oh? I’ve started a thread on how you Protestants succeeded where Christ and His Apostles failed.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=258291
As far as I know, while holding a view similar to the Lutheran, Episcopalian, and RCC view that Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin you haven’t gone as far as to declare the immaculate conception as part of your doctrine – so there’s still hope.
Right on all counts, so there’s still hope.
Frankly, Lutherans and Episcopalians are barely protestants.
yes, they have an awareness that the Bible didn’t drop from the sky in front of them, and they received Christ from someone. Romans 10:8-15. As I quote on the thread linked above, St. Clement, ordained by the Apostles themselves, writes that God sent Christ, Christ sent the Apostles and the Apostles sent the bishops to succeed them, so the order is the same.
They’ve been coddling up to Rome for decades, groveling for a bite at the apostolic succession apple.The whole idea of apostolic succession as its framed by both the Eastern and Western churches is just wrong. Frankly so much is apparent since it is used in furtherance of organizational supremacy.
Luke 10:16 “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”
Consult Acts 20:17-37, where the Apostles hand the Church over to their successors, the bishops, for this reason that the Apostles left the bishops, that they would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as directed (Titus 1:15).
Just read Polycarp, who advocated Presbyterian church governance (in his epistle to the Philippians). Not that there’s anything unbiblical about the episcopate
I have. Can you be more specific? as St. Ignatius, who was ordained by the Apostles, wrote a letter to St. Polycarp, who was ordained by the Apostles, and to his see, Smyrna, in which he says among other things “Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.” — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8.
As I point out in the above linked thread, these bishops appointed by the Apostles claim and accept this description of the hierarchy of Church. The Biblical decription of it. (indeed, St. Polycarp says, referring to St. Ignatius, in the letter you cite: “I have greatly rejoiced with you in our Lord Jesus Christ, because ye have received the patterns of true love and have accompanied, as became you, those who were bound in chains, the fitting ornaments of saints, and which are indeed the diadems of the true elect of God and our Lord…I exhort you all, therefore, to yield obedience to the word of righteousness, and to exercise all patience, such as ye have seen [set] before your eyes, not only in the case of the blessed Ignatius, and Zosimus, and Rufus, but also in others among yourselves, and in Paul himself, and the rest of the apostles. [This do] in the assurance that all these have not run in vain, but in faith and righteousness, and that they are [now] in their due place in the presence of the Lord, with whom also they suffered. For they loved not this present world, but Him who died for us, and for our sakes was raised again by God from the dead…Both you and Ignatius wrote me…The Epistles of Ignatius written by him. to us, and all the rest [of his Epistles] which we have by us, we have sent to you, as you requested. They are subjoined to this Epistle, and by them ye may be greatly profited; for they treat of faith and patience, and
all things that tend to edification in our Lord. Any more certain information you may have obtained respecting both Ignatius himself, and those that were with him, have the goodness to make known to us” From this it seems that it dates from just after Ignatius’ letters, of which St. Polycarp obvious approves, including St. Igantius’ views of the hierarchical nature of the Church. Btw. St. Polycarp’s martyrdom is an early witness to the cult of saints, which you seem to reject).
Btw, what do you do with I Timothy, which St. Polycarp quotes?
; however, what is unbiblical is how you define the “church of Christ.”
The idea pushed by the RCC (and the EOC) is that a visible church was in view when we see mention of “oneness” in scripture. Frankly the terms visible and invisible are nonsensical. As if believers are invisible. The church of God is found in Scripture and no where else.
Then you have a paper god.
The Church of Our God is the Body of Christ, and He is not the Invisible Man.
A plain understanding of Scripture is the only sound basis for church organization. When I read the earliest writings from those like Polycarp or the Didache it is clear that there were local churches with no central leadership. Elders, pastors, and deacons were chosen by the congregation. The laying of hands in ordination is a valid and right practice. However, the authority flows to church leaders from the congregation.
I Timothy 4:14 “Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the eldership” (i.e. the bishops, as Acts 20:17, 28 clarifies). No mention of the congregation. (Mark 3:13-4 ) "And He went up on the mountain and summoned those whom He Himself wanted, and they came to Him. And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach. (John 15:16) “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you may bear fruit” [btw. St. Clement, writing around the same time, calls the early bishops the first fruits of the Apostles]. (Luke 10:16) “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.” (Mark 4:11) And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables.” (Hebrews 5:4, 7:7) “And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was [Consult Numbers 12 for the consequences]…And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better” Can it be any plainer?
Once anointed authority is bestowed over the congregation (like a Shepard is to his flock).
Sheep choosing their shephard. Did the Good Shephard say that?
Note again Hebrews 7:7.
However, even then each Christian retains the duty to reproof the other in love.
True.
Church clergy (including elders or bishops) may be married
.
True
Icons may not be used in any way.
Already refuted.
and that’s why Christ is a man, and why we are saved.
born into sin under the law,
Galatians 4:4-5: But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in order to redeem those who were under the law, and thus to adopt them as his children," "by Him, who knew no sin, be made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in Him (II Cor. 5:21).
So, what was your point about the Holy Theotokos, the Rod of Aaron that Bloosemed, the Jar of Manna which held the Bread of Life, the True Ark of God more honorable than the Cherubim, who held within her Him whom the Temple nor even the Heavens could not contain?
bestowed with grace at the annunciation.
The Feast of Which we sing: Today is the beginning of our salvation, The revelation of the eternal mystery! The Son of God becomes the Son of the Virgin, As Gabriel announces the coming of Grace. Together with him let us cry out to the Theotokos! Rejoice, O Full of Grace, the Lord is with you.
cont…