This Wednesday, 8/6/2008, I will be leaving communion with the Roman Catholic Church

[Lapell]

You know, I have been thinking… I am sure, Christy 74, that you are not leaving the Catholic Church because of doctrines. You are leaving for another reason, I don’t know which, but it’s not because a doctrine would be “false”!

 

[Frank_J]

Hi

I am OCA member with 100% Italian background.

I converted back in Jan. 7 2001 and it was the best thing that ever happen in my life as a Christian.

GOD bless all of my Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters in this chatroom

 

[Mickey]

Hi

I am OCA member with 100% Italian background.

I converted back in Jan. 7 2001 and it was the best thing that ever happen in my life as a Christian.

GOD bless all of my Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters in this chatroom

Slava Isusu Christu!

God bless you too Frank. It is also the best thing that ever happened in my life.

I am 50% Italian.

 

[Lapell]

Encyclicals are not statements by one pope alone, not even the Vatican II texts! Always the pope and the bishops. Always.
Only when you find the expression “motu proprio”, and I don’t think it would be anything different than when saint Paul spoke his own mind about celibacy being good in a time like the time he was living in, but then he was specific about it being his opinion and not necessarily that of the Lord! At any rate, his advice was not contrary to any known doctrine in Christianity, only it could be debatable.

I’ve been hearing rumblings about this – but I’m not sure what to make of it (since there seems to be so much misinformation out there). I heard that Pope Benedict made a statement that doctrine may only be formed by counsel and not through the unilateral declaration of a Pope, but again I’m not sure if this is true.

This would seem to be a tidal wave reversal of earlier teachings, at least practically speaking. Many of the doctrines concerning Mary were not formed by counsel, but rather by earlier Popes invoking infallibility.

This whole issue seems very clouded because it’s really hard to pin down Rome. They seem to go through elaborate attempts at retaining ambiguity in these areas to leave the door open, just in case an earlier doctrine is shown to be erroneous. This to me smacks of intellectual dishonesty.

This is my core problem with over-reliance on so called tradition. When we look to extra-scriptural sources and sources grossly attenuated from the apostles themselves, a slippery slope develops.

It is useful to look to early Christian writings, for example Polycarp and the Didache. In particular the case for Polycarp is uniquely strong, since authorship of his work is not in dispute. Part of those early writings gives us important information regarding Ecclesiology.

 

[Lapell]

Hi

I am OCA member with 100% Italian background.

I converted back in Jan. 7 2001 and it was the best thing that ever happen in my life as a Christian.

GOD bless all of my Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters in this chatroom

Your sentiment is certainly genuine, Frank… and yet, one can ask you: was it because of one specific doctrine or because you found Catholics to not be good examples of how a Christian should live or because of a controversy (that involves bad examples too)?

 

[Lapell]

My question to FrankJ I also am asking to you, Mickey, and to all of you who converted from Catholic to Orthodox. Feel free to answer or not to answer… Thanks and God bless you!

 

[Lapell]

Oh brother.

1. There is a great feast day (SS Peter and Paul) in the Orthodox Church preceded by a three week fast.
2. Filioque is a Western innovation.

An innovation? I think it comes from the first verses of the Gospel according to John…
Besides, the Filioque was not the reason for the schism, since the discussion came after the mutual excommunication by the pope’s emissary and the emissary of the patriarch of… was it Constantinople?

 

[buffgbob]

The East will never try to understand the error and innovation of the Filioque clause.

I love St Mark of Ephesus.

And thus you prove my very point. Wouldn’t a Christian attempt to understand what the other side is saying before rashly saying they are heretics? As I said Greek scholors (and some early Fathers) agreed with Filioque. It is an accurate representation of the procession of the Holy Spirit.

The way I see it, all Orthodox claims to Rome’s “heresy” are mere theological opinion. By Orthodox’s own definition of what constitues infallible doctrine of the Church, Rome has not contradicted any doctrine. And in fact, they cannot; since the councils need Rome’s stamp to be necessarily true and binding on the whole Church. Constantinople’s teaching that Rome is heretical is as binding to the Church as when that same see taught Arianism. To remain in schism because of opinion is disgusting; it shows arrogance, ignorance, and lack of charity.

I hate and detest schism. You apparently love it. You don’t love your Roman brethren. You love “St.” Mark of Ephesus. I’m sure your next love is “Saint” Photius. I am not fooled. I am well aware of the cost for those who obstinantly seperate Christ’s Church. You want to stay in schism? That’s your perogative.

 

[Lapell]

And I think the pope’s emissary was blamed by Catholic historians for his lack of disposition toward understanding. Maybe the pope of that time should have been there personally?
But then, there was no airplane! And there were many things to oversee at the same time…

 

[adstrinity]

As their mother and I are divorced, that’s not a problem.

Mom got tossed out (father confessor told her that if he had to leave the altar at the consecration to escort her out personally, he’d do so). When the divorce went through (usually there’s a year’s penance afterward of automatic excommunication) the priest told me to come to communion if I wanted that Sunday, as I “had done enough penance.” So it gives you an idea about how that was.

I am very sorry to hear that you are divorced and that it was not an amicable divorce.

God bless you for not inflicting your children with the consequences.

Mom went to the Romanian Church (an canonical no no, as she was under Church discipline), but went through two parishes. She ended up at Willow Creek (a mega church here), which the boys refer to as “the Church where we don’t pray.”

Why is that a canonical no no? I don’t understand, I don’t think. Did she church shop while she should have been in pennance, basically, telling God & Church she didn’t have to listen?

Besides that, there’s not much to tell. We have some Romanias who come to our Church, I go to the Arab Church often enough, where they had a Romanian monk who was caretaker to the weeping icon, and who was deeply loved and missed by the Arabs, we go to Greek Churches on occasion (for instance on Great and Holy Wednesday they have an early unction service which fits in for visitation). While we are there the boys see a lot of their classmates. Beside our Church being all in English (it started as a Bible study at Wheaton College: the priest always jokes that the Almisry boys will complain that they didn’t understand a thing because it was in English), the Arab Church being half in Arabic (the boys and I normally pray in Arabic), the Greek Church being half in Greek (I tell them this is the language of the NT) and the Romanian Church being all in Romanian (the Church is actually the Patriarchal Cathedral for the ROC in America: interesting, the semon is usually given, all in Romanian, by an American priest who had gone to Romania as a Baptist missionary. Things didn’t go according to plan. ), they don’t see much difference. Even when go to the Coptic Church (“the Church that speaks mummy” ), nothing different. The only major thing has been they are interesting in the stories of the icons, as usually these are different. When we went to the New Gratian monestery (Serbian) in Libertyville, we had to go around the entire Church and see all the different saints on the walls (the Church is large and covered top to bottom. If you are nearby definitely see it: it’s gorgious) and their stories. My younger son was thrilled to see over 7 icons of his patron, St. Stephen. They’ve communed in all of them so that’s not an issue. They will NOT commune in Willow Creek, nor buy the line that is sold there, though they will comment that “they got this right…they got that right.” When I showed our antimensis to them, my one son said “mama’s Church of course doesn’t have one. They don’t have half of what we got.”

…I take it the weeping icon was a miracle; is it still ongoing? …Which icon?

Is the Megachurch Protestant or Orthodox? I am getting confused about that. It’s Prot, right?

Thank you for your answers and your charity. Libertyville – “It’s a beautiful place in the country,”…but, I don’t think I’m anywhere near there. Church sounds nice, though.

You cannot delete yourself on this forum.

Oh. That would explain it. I guess it would be an unnatural way to go…

Wow! You are claiming that the Holy Orthodox Church does not have the Holy Spirit!?! That is a dangerous statement. I will pray for you.

That is in part what I said, but, sir, if you will notice the prepositional phrase, “to make sure whatever the pronounce is not pronounced in error,” which, by the way, “the,” should be, “they,” you will see that I am saying the East cannot dogmatically proclaim anything since it does not have the authority, or the visible headship, to do so. Clearly She has the Holy Spirit in her Sacraments and Her Saints to this day.

I thank you for your prayers. I hope you pray in charity and with right intent. Please be patient with those of us who have not been indoctrinated in the ways of the East, ESPECIALLY those of you who have come from the West.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Oh brother.

1. There is a great feast day (SS Peter and Paul) in the Orthodox Church preceded by a three week fast.
2. Filioque is a Western innovation.

actually, isn’t filioque like the child of a affair?

 

[Lapell]

Hasn’t it been very recently that a genuine understanding has taken place between a lot of peoples, at least in Europe? (I hope it doesn’t necessarily always involve giving up a people’s identity, that would be disastrous!!) In past centuries, the conditions were not exactly friendly in that regard, were they?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Wow! You are claiming that the Holy Orthodox Church does not have the Holy Spirit!?! That is a dangerous statement. I will pray for you.

I’d direct her to what “Peter” at the Vatican says on the matter.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

What the doctrine says is “at the end of her terrestrial life, Mary was asumed in heaven in her body as well as in her soul” (my translation might be slightly awkward, but I hope you understand!) and whether she was alive or dead at the time, it doesn’t say! True, in our Church some believe Mary didn’t die, but some do believe that she did. So, that point is left to speculation…

That’s the point, we don’t leave the dormition to speculation. Hence, no IC.

 

[Mickey]

My question to FrankJ I also am asking to you, Mickey, and to all of you who converted from Catholic to Orthodox. Feel free to answer or not to answer… Thanks and God bless you!

Greetings Lapell!

Slava Isusu Christu!
Slava NaViki!

My conversion to Holy Orthodoxy was a life long journey.
I was born and raised Roman (Latin) Catholic. I canonically changed “rites” to Byzantine “Ruthenian” Catholic. Finally, in September 2007 I was accepted into the Holy Orthodox Church.

My reasons were were mostly doctrinal. After many years of prayer, study and discernment, I could no longer accept the doctrinal additions of post schism Rome. I was also disillusioned by the vast and growing new age movement within Catholicism. I wrote letters reporting these activities (mostly among the Roman Catholic nuns’ retreat centers). The bishops would do nothing. I was simply told to steer clear of these places and tell others not to go.

Finally, the Byzantine Catholic Church revised Her Liturgy using gender nuetral language and rewrote the rubrics. That was enough for me.

Oh yeah—I am also not a fan of the Novus Ordo.

I understand that no Church is perfect and that the people in the pews and the clergy are sinners–but I must reiterate that my main reasons were doctrinal.

That is the short version.

Although my posts sometimes come off as harsh against the Roman Catholic Church and those in communion with Her, I will always love the Church I was born into. I still have family and friends in the RCC and Eastern Catholic Church. It is the Church that nourished and fed my soul. It is the Church that led me to Holy Orthodoxy.

Peace and blessings to you,
Mickey

 

[Mickey]

I hate and detest schism.

Then you should return to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

You love “St.” Mark of Ephesus. I’m sure your next love is “Saint” Photius. I am not fooled.

Apparently you have been fooled–or at least confused. St Photius “the Great” is also venerated in many Eastern Catholic Churches.

 

[Lapell]

The East will never try to understand the error and innovation of the Filioque clause.

Where does the “error” lie there? How do you KNOW there is an error there?
As for the Holy Spirit being not present in the Orthodox Church at all, I do agree it’s a dangerous thing to say.
But as for doctrinal matters in the Orthodox Church since the schism, they are not decided along with the successor of saint Peter, that’s a fact!

 

[Lapell]

Why did Jesus tell saint Peter (and only him) that he would give him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 16)

 

[Mickey]

I am saying the East cannot dogmatically proclaim anything

All that needed to be dogmatically procalimed, was done so when the Churches were united. Rome did not have the authority to dogmatically innovate.

I hope you pray in charity and with right intent.

I will make extra efforts. Please forgive me for any perceived harshness. I am the worst and most wretched of all sinners.

 

[Mickey]

But as for doctrinal matters in the Orthodox Church since the schism, they are not decided along with the successor of saint Peter, that’s a fact!

St Peter has successors in Antioch also.