This Wednesday, 8/6/2008, I will be leaving communion with the Roman Catholic Church

[anon52328184]

thanks for the info. i looked at the sites. the problem i have with the orthodox churches is that they are so nationalized.

i don’t understand why they don’t believe the Holy Spirit cannot come through the Son, but only the Father.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

is there a website for the orthodox churches? where you can learn more about them? what do they think of peter and why do they not accept him? who was peter to the orthodox?

The conductor of the choir of apostles, chief disciple, Apostle to the Jews, founder directly of the two sees of Antioch and Rome an indirectly Alexandria. We accept him, just not the claims that his successors at Rome make for themselves.

www.orthodoxchristianitty.net

but the server is at the moment having a service check overhaul. Hence why I’m here. (btw many here are also there, including the most vocal supporters of the Vatican).

you can also go to

ancientfaith.com/

 

[Milliardo]

thanks for the info. i looked at the sites. the problem i have with the orthodox churches is that they are so nationalized.

Orthodox jurisdictions are inter-dependent of each other; they have their own administration and the like, but they are united in faith.

i don’t understand why they don’t believe the Holy Spirit cannot come through the Son, but only the Father.

In fact we do accept that the Holy Spirit comes through the Son, but He does not proceed from the Father and the Son.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Pretty websites. Apparently our Lutheran Synods here in the U.S. need to hire Orthodox web designers.

Icons rock.

and accept the Seventh Ecumenical Council (while Lutheran I used to burn icons ).

 

[TriuneUnity]

and accept the Seventh Ecumenical Council (while Lutheran I used to burn icons ).

One can enjoy and be edified by icons without talking to them

Whatever did you burn icons for?? LOL

 

[Milliardo]

The conductor of the choir of apostles, chief disciple, Apostle to the Jews, founder directly of the two sees of Antioch and Rome an indirectly Alexandria. We accept him, just not the claims that his successors at Rome make for themselves.

www.orthodoxchristianitty.net

Been down for a week or so now; what’s up with that?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

thanks for the info. i looked at the sites. the problem i have with the orthodox churches is that they are so nationalized.

i don’t understand why they don’t believe the Holy Spirit cannot come through the Son, but only the Father.

Got that wrong. We insist the Spririt DOES process through the Son, but not FROM the Son.

 

[anon52328184]

reply to 122 isa

thank you isa for being courteous and giving me the website and trying to explain your understanding of who peter is.

reply to 117 joseph daniel

why so rude? it was an honest question. there is no such thing as a stupid question.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

One can enjoy and be edified by icons without talking to them

Whatever did you burn icons for?? LOL

Very LOOOOW church Lutheran. Got to get rid of those idols.

I remember that there was a debate raging for months about whether to put a crucifix on the altar (someone found it in storage)… I didn’t realize how empty the place was until I embraced Orthodoxy.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Been down for a week or so now; what’s up with that?

there was some message that the server is having some mismanagement problems. It was up a couple hours and now down again.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Very LOOOOW church Lutheran. Got to get rid of those idols.

I remember that there was a debate raging for months about whether to put a crucifix on the altar (someone found it in storage)… I didn’t realize how empty the place was until I embraced Orthodoxy.

Low church is no church! Of course, I am not dogmatic about whether there must be images and statues all over the place… but it seems to me if you want to preach Christ and Him crucified, you should show Christ and Him crucified.

Besides, its worked OK for the last 2000 years.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Low church is no church! Of course, I am not dogmatic about whether there must be images and statues all over the place… but it seems to me if you want to preach Christ and Him crucified, you should show Christ and Him crucified.

Besides, its worked OK for the last 2000 years.

Funny, that’s what Martin Luther said. But it wasn’t until I joined the Orthodox that I found that out.

As our priest says (a self described “recovering Episcopalian” who graduated from Southern Baptist), Protestants would be shocked to find out how “Catholic” the reformers were.

 

[anon52328184]

i don’t know, doesn’t seem like there is much difference between that phrase in the 2 creeds.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Low church is no church! Of course, I am not dogmatic about whether there must be images and statues all over the place… but it seems to me if you want to preach Christ and Him crucified, you should show Christ and Him crucified.

Besides, its worked OK for the last 2000 years.

It’s funny you guys blast Luther for his faith alone dogma but we’re the ones following the commandments, you know like no graven images.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Funny, that’s what Martin Luther said. But it wasn’t until I joined the Orthodox that I found that out.

As our priest says (a self described “recovering Episcopalian” who graduated from Southern Baptist), Protestants would be shocked to find out how “Catholic” the reformers were.

In the words of Jaroslav Pelikan (who converted to Orthodoxy, I believe), Luther was more Catholic than most of his adversaries. Pelkian also stated, and I think quite accurately:

“As a Protestant, he subjected the authority of church councils to the authority of the word of God; as a Catholic he interpreted the word of God in conformity with the dogmas of the councils and in this sense made the councils normative. This attitude was an inconsistency to both the traditionalists and the iconoclasts; for neither of them could see that Catholic substance and Protestant principle belong together, not only in Luther’s Reformation, but in the life of the church and indeed in the very message of the New Testament.”

 

[TriuneUnity]

It’s funny you guys blast Luther for his faith alone dogma but we’re the ones following the commandments, you know like no graven images.

Tell that to the men who built the Temple.

The prohibition is really a clarifying part of the first commandment that deals with idolatry. It is not wrong to use images properly (as stimulants to recall God’s saving work on our behalf) but is sinful when the things are worshipped or revered in place of God. Examples from the Old Testament show that God is not opposed to the making of images in and of themselves (like the cherubs on the cover of the ark of the covenant). He forbids an idolatrous use of them. The bronze snake fashioned by Moses may serve as an illustration. It was made for a good purpose (Numbers 21:4-9), then kept around without divine objection, but ultimately turned into an object of idolatry and was destroyed by godly King Hezekiah (2 Kings 18:4).

 

[adstrinity]

Tell that to the men who built the Temple.

You mean ask them in prayer? Anyway, you know what I think we should do to see which Church, East or West is right? ULTIMATE FIGHTING! We nominate a saint, I like the one who wrote, Summa Theologica, because he was a pretty hefty guy, and the East nominates a saint and then we can all pray to God that our respective Guy wins. Whichever side wins God’s Favour can claim the Heavyweight Title of, “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic”

 

[Wyatt]

You mean ask them in prayer? Anyway, you know what I think we should do to see which Church, East or West is right? ULTIMATE FIGHTING! We nominate a saint, I like the one who wrote, Summa Theologica, because he was a pretty hefty guy, and the East nominates a saint and then we can all pray to God that our respective Guy wins. Whichever side wins God’s Favour can claim the Heavyweight Title of, “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic”

I like the way you think

Or…we could have an actual physical war here on Earth, and whichever Church wins would be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church since God would clearly be on that Church’s side. I only kid of course.

I do wonder what would happen, however…I presume such a thing would be impossible as the Holy Spirit would not allow it to come to that.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Tell that to the men who built the Temple.

The prohibition is really a clarifying part of the first commandment that deals with idolatry.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth (Exodus 20:4).

The prohibition is against making ANY likeness of what is:

1. In heaven above (including God Himself, but this also includes saints or anyone who we think is in heaven).
2. Earth; and
3. In the water

It is not wrong to use images properly (as stimulants to recall God’s saving work on our behalf)

Obviously the prohibition is on objects designed to be used in worship, however, forget about how you’re allowed to “use” such objects, we cannot even make them in the first place.

Examples from the Old Testament show that God is not opposed to the making of images in and of themselves (like the cherubs on the cover of the ark of the covenant).

You mean things built exactly according to the specifications God enumerated?

He forbids an idolatrous use of them.

Again if you want to get technical He forbids making them in the first place.

The bronze snake fashioned by Moses may serve as an illustration. It was made for a good purpose (Numbers 21:4-9), then kept around without divine objection, but ultimately turned into an object of idolatry and was destroyed by godly King Hezekiah (2 Kings 18:4).

God did enumerate certain objects, buildings, the Ark to be built in accordance with His specifications. God also ordered the Jews to wipe out enemy armies, which would otherwise be murderous.

The point is yes God can create exceptions to His rules for His purposes, however, the ten commandments are the default rules.

Indeed this phraseology is even more problematic in other verses:

*so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky,

the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water below the earth (Deuteronomy 4:16-18).

You shall not make for yourselves (A)idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the LORD your God (Leviticus 26:1)*

 

[Milliardo]

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth (Exodus 20:4).

The prohibition is against making ANY likeness of what is:

1. In heaven above (including God Himself, but this also includes saints or anyone who we think is in heaven).

God then contradicts Himself by telling the Israelites to make images of cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, correct?

Obviously the prohibition is on objects designed to be used in worship

The Ark of the Covenant was used in Old Testament worship (it was God’s footstool, hidden behind the Holy of Holies); so God contradicted Himself again?

we cannot even make them in the first place.

Again, God ordered the making of images of cherubim, seraphim (massive at that, at the entrance of the Temple), the brass sea, the bronze serpent…

The point is yes God can create exceptions to His rules for His purposes, however, the ten commandments are the default rules.

The point of the first and second commandments are;

1. Not to have other gods before Him and,
2. Not to make images of those gods (idols)

The two commandments go together. It is not a prohibition of images per se, or else God is contradicting Himself in ordering images to be made, and God is not a God of contradictions.