This Wednesday, 8/6/2008, I will be leaving communion with the Roman Catholic Church

[MarcoPolo]

Libertyville – “It’s a beautiful place in the country,”…but, I don’t think I’m anywhere near there.

Libertyville is way up north of Chicago, nearing Wisconsin. So if you aren’t near there then you are right.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Why did Jesus tell saint Peter (and only him) that he would give him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 16)

Even the “Catholic Encyclopedia” admits the overwhelming witness of the Fathers is that this deals with the power to forgive sins,

newadvent.org/cathen/08631b.htm

something conferred on All the Apostles a few verses down (18:18), and all together on the First Pascha (John 20:22-3). (Btw, the Fathers interpret that as the restoration of the breath of life, on the 8th Day of Creation/1st Day of the New Creation, that God breathed into him but he lost at the Fall.)

In conection to your interpretation, I’ve asked many times, but never got a response: the “proof text” of Isaiah:

Revelation 3:7 proves Christ is the one who holds the key of David, not Peter. Isaiah 22 prophesies Christ’s coming and his authority rather than Peter’s. Matthew 16:18 has nothing to do with either.

As the royal son of David, Christ is the owner of the key of David, but this doesn’t mean he can’t give it to Peter, as his “prime minister,” the keys to his heavenly kingdom.

In the passage to which Revelation 3:7 alludes, Isaiah 22:20-23, Eliakim is made master of the palace, a post roughly equivalent to prime minister. As the king’s right-hand man, the master of the palace is given the “key of the House of David.”

Keys symbolize authority, so bestowing the key to the House of David upon Eliakim is equivalent to giving him, as the king’s duly appointed representative, authority over the kingdom.

Revelation 3:7 speaks of Jesus as “the holder of the key of David.” Some argue this means he fulfills the role Eliakim foreshadowed in Isaiah 22:20-23. They claim this excludes a prophetic application of this text to Peter by Christ in Matthew 16:18-19.

There’s a problem with this argument. In Isaiah 22 Eliakim is master of the palace–the king isn’t. Eliakim possesses the key of the kingdom not as its owner, but as one deputed to oversee the king’s affairs. If we apply this to Christ, Then we must conclude he’s not the true messianic king, merely his prime minister, the Messiah’s chief representative!

Although Jesus is called the “holder of the key of David” in Revelation 3:7, he doesn’t hold it as Eliakim did. As the son of David, Jesus is the heir to the throne of his ancestor (Luke 1:32-33). He really is the king, not the master of the king’s palace, as was Eliakim. As king, Jesus is free to bestow the keys of his kingdom on whomever he wishes–without losing the authority those keys represent.

It’s the Catholic position that this is precisely what Jesus does in Matthew 16:18-19. Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah, which means, among other things, acknowledging his kingship. Christ then shows his kingly authority by bestowing on Peter something only the king could give–the keys of the kingdom of heaven–thus making Peter the messianic equivalent of Eliakim.
newadvent.org/library/almanac_thisrock91.htm

One Problem, the Douay-Rheims, done with an eye to show the primacy of Peter, doesn’t see this: it explicitly identifies Eliakim as “a figure of Christ.”
newadvent.org/bible/isa022.htm
How’d they miss it? So my question is, when did Isaiah 22:22-23 (why I underline, I’ll state in a moment) become a “proof-text” of the papacy?

As to the verses, I note that every apologist who cites this stops at 23, and doesn’t continue to the end. Why?

23 And I will fasten him [Eliakim] as a peg in a sure place, and he shall be for a throne of glory to the house of his father.
24 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father’s house, divers kinds of vessels, every little vessel, from the vessels of cups even to every instrument of music.
25 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall the peg be removed, that was fastened in the sure place: and it shall be broken and shall fall: and that which hung thereon, shall perish, because the Lord hath spoken it.

 

[Mickey]

you don’t agree to their interpretation.

Whose interpretation?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Even the “Catholic Encyclopedia” admits the overwhelming witness of the Fathers is that this deals with the power to forgive sins,

newadvent.org/cathen/08631b.htm

something conferred on All the Apostles a few verses down (18:18), and all together on the First Pascha (John 20:22-3).

Yep…that was Luther’s interpretation of the passage. Read his discussion of the Office of the Keys in the Large Catechism and the Smalcald Articles. Awesome stuff.

 

[Writer]

Hi Mickey and Lapell,

I would like to address one at a time. First I would like to say hello Mickey glade to see you are one of us.

My mother started me down this road when I was a small child. She was Sicilian back ground and would teach me thing about my faith I didn’t know where it came from. When I converted I found out more about Orthodoxy influence in Italy when it comes to the southern part of that country.

It appears that at one time my family on my mother side was Orthodox at one time. That would explain why my mother instructed in her views of her religion. Remember she was raised Roman Catholic as a child but yet the Byzantine culture was passed from one generation to the next.

Now I would like to address some of what you have asked for Lapell. Your chat said as follows:

“Your sentiment is certainly genuine, Frank… and yet, one can ask you: was it because of one specific doctrine or because you found Catholics to not be good examples of how a Christian should live or because of a controversy (that involves bad examples too)?”

My reason for the change was not of any specific doctrine it was who presented itself when it came to the Novus Ordo Mass , that would cover Jazz Mass and other abuse that are going on in the Roman Catholic, Altar girls, communion in the hand the rejection of the Latin Tridentine Mass.

Homosexual Priest that were appointed by the bishops to over look there sheep. Cardinal Bernard Law give a Vatican office were as to work out of. Cardinal Bernard Law move around Priest like Fr Potter and Fr Gaggen. In case you don’t understand who I will tell you they were among the priest that sexual assault of young Altar boys.

I have lived long enough to see every thing the Roman Church has done since John the XXIII up in until now with this new pope of yours. Just look at what the Rome Church has since Pope Paul VI to John Paul II and see what was allow to fester in your Church.

I was mistreat by a Latin Nun at a Church one day when I was introduce by a priest as a member of the Latin Mass group at Holy Trinity German Catholic in Boston. When the Nun spoke up she said OH! One of THEM! She had no love for me or the Christians that attend The Latin Tridentine Mass.

This was the last straw when it came to getting me to leave.

If you want me to say more I can tell you everything.

Have a great day.

I don’t understand how “hurt feelings” prompt a rational person to change from Catholic to Orthodox. As a Protestant child, I was teased mercilessly by Catholic kids and sometimes treated poorly by staff of the Catholic shool I attended, as well, but that’s not an excuse to throw away one’s reasoning. When I realized the catholic Church was the one true Church as an adult, I did not let the troubles of childhood interfere with my pursuit of Christ (or, more acccurately, His pursuit of me). Wherever you look, people can and will continue to fail. We offer our struggles and pains up to Christ and continue to follow what’s right and true. Don’t dwell on the wrongs done to you, but dwell on the rights you can do for others.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Oh really? One of those councils said something to the extent:
“If anyone says that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, let them be anathema”?
Or are you merely talking about the protection of the Nicea Creed, in which the Nicea-Constantinople Creed would fall under that same jurisdiction.

That would be odd, since the Fathers at Constantinople stated that the Creed of Nicea would stand firm and not be set aside. We they anathematizing themselves?

And yes I have read those quotes you mentioned before. As far as not “needing” any more councils, that’s apparent from Orthodox’s allowing of divorce

If I were you, I’d explain what council created the “Petrine and Pauline privileges,” which, even by the Vatican rules, dissolves a valid marriage, before opening the can of corban.

and birth control.

Was humane vitae ex cathedra?

As far as Rome having more doctrinally binding councils is concerned, did we need the Oriental Churchs’ consent to have councils? No, they were schismatic.

Being in scism from the Church, you are free to do whatever you like.

 

[why_me]

The Finns are also the most religious of the Scandanavians.

If true this is not saying much about religiousness in Finland. Thousands are leaving the luthern church in finland and the general population can not be considered very spiritual. Secularism is the religion of Finland and the luthern church has not helped in this regard. Also, Finnish is the only language that I know of where satan’s name can be mentioned in a curse word and it is used quite often. The Finns love to call upon satan when they get angry or annoyed. SATANA! can be heard on the streets or PERKELE too. Both mean satan.

 

[Mickey]

Don’t dwell on the wrongs done to you, but dwell on the rights you can do for others.

This is true. And I imagine that Frank has much more to his conversion than hurt feelings. I also was beaten by Roman Catholics nuns in grade school and given ridiculous penances (after confession) by a priest as a pre teenager. I never held such things against the Catholic Church.

Love the sinner hate the sin.

But when I realized that the Holy Orthodox Church was the one true Church–then it was a no-brainer.

 

[dessert]

Okay this is it!

GOOD BYE EVERYBODY!

Good Bye all Catholics: Western and Eastern! Perhaps you’ll follow me one day on this journey. Whether you do or not, I wish you all the very best spiritually and physically!

Good Bye all Protestants: All 30,000 plus types of you! I hope you too will enter the Orthodox Church one day. Whether you do or not, I wish you all the very best spiritually and physically!

Good Bye fellow Orthodox: I’ll see you in Church!

PEACE TO EVERYONE!

:extrahappy: :extrahappy: :extrahappy: :hug3: :extrahappy: :extrahappy: :extrahappy:

Hasta La Bye Bye!

This is sad isn’t it? especially the group hug at the end which I couldn’t put on.

 

[TriuneUnity]

If I were you, I’d explain what council created the “Petrine and Pauline privileges,” which, even by the Vatican rules, dissolves a valid marriage, before opening the can of corban.

What is interesting as a third party to the discussion is that Christ and the apostle Paul allows for divorce in instances where the Roman Church does not. It seems given the two options, the Orthodox view would line up with apostolic belief whereas Rome has invented her own doctrine of marriage.

 

[why_me]

I know many orthodox people and they are very good people. However, I don’t find much attraction for the orthodox faith. I can’t see the wisdom in all the symbolism that the faith entails. Both that is only my opinion. The catholic church seems to have gotten it right with its mass. But that is only my opinion, of course.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

It’s still fallible opinion. You have yet to show any documents that assert binding (infallible) Church authority on the subject.

Christ’s own words, recorded in the Gospel by the Evangelist, canonized by the Church, cited by the Fathers in Ecumenical Council, set on the doors of St. Peter’s and St. Paul’s in Rome by the Pope of Rome, who condemned the addition at the council of Aachen/Frankfurt (btw. Being called by Charlemagne, that had more authority than the local council of Toledo called by the King of Visigoth Spain), with the inscription “«HAEC LEO POSUI AMORE ET CAUTELA ORTHODOXAE FIDEI» (I, Leo, put here for love and protection of the Orthodox Faith)”

yeah, a weak case, without authority

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.
And Amen!

Maran tha!

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Has anybody noticed how badly this thread has been “hijacked”?

Yes, but he potporris has been quite good.

I’d break it into several threads, but I think that’d too much bother.

 

[Frank_J]

Hi RobHom,

Thank you, apology, but it is not you who should do it. It was not you who insulted me. I’m not Roman Catholic anymore, I’m Eastern Orthodox Christian and have been for almost 8 years now. I just need to correct in one small area of you chat.

Hi Writer,

You asked me why I would leave and I will tell you why.

I was sick to death of the Roman Catholic Church and what it was putting me through. The Catholic like to blame the devil it’s problems, but it wasn’t the devil that made it trash the The Latin Tridentine Mass. Would you agree that it was the Roman Church that deep six the Tridentine Mass?

I must amitt that if it were not for the problems in the Roman Church I wouldn’t have found Jesus Christ in my life. It was Christ that wanted me to become Orthodox Christian for HE saw me wanting to drop out of the Christian faith. If I had stayed in the Roman Church I would have just walk away form it down the road.

I know no better way to put it.

Have a great day.

 

[Frank_J]

Hi Mickey,

Thank You for your statement.

GOD Bless you.

 

[RobHom]

What is interesting as a third party to the discussion is that Christ and the apostle Paul allows for divorce in instances where the Roman Church does not. It seems given the two options, the Orthodox view would line up with apostolic belief whereas Rome has invented her own doctrine of marriage.

Can someone provide a valid link to the “Orthodox” view or take on marriages and the sanctity of marriage vows, etc?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Yep…that was Luther’s interpretation of the passage. Read his discussion of the Office of the Keys in the Large Catechism and the Smalcald Articles. Awesome stuff.

Yes. I remember wondering why we were skipping the section on “the Office of the Keys” in our cathechism when I was preparing for confirmation.

At the time I thought that surely, Confession had no sacramental sign (like water, bread, wine). Only after I embraced Orthodoxy that I realized that “that divine word spoken to the Apostles” (John 20:23), as it is called in the office of confession, was as much part of the created universe as water, bread and wine.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I don’t understand how “hurt feelings” prompt a rational person to change from Catholic to Orthodox. As a Protestant child, I was teased mercilessly by Catholic kids and sometimes treated poorly by staff of the Catholic shool I attended, as well, but that’s not an excuse to throw away one’s reasoning. When I realized the catholic Church was the one true Church as an adult, I did not let the troubles of childhood interfere with my pursuit of Christ (or, more acccurately, His pursuit of me). Wherever you look, people can and will continue to fail. We offer our struggles and pains up to Christ and continue to follow what’s right and true. Don’t dwell on the wrongs done to you, but dwell on the rights you can do for others.

I don’t either, but I remember some of the things said to me, an Evangelical Lutheran, in Latin school. Some would say the Hail Mary to purposely annoy me. Now, I think they would drop dead to know that I say the Angelus-in Latin!

 

[Isa_Almisry]

If true this is not saying much about religiousness in Finland. Thousands are leaving the luthern church in finland and the general population can not be considered very spiritual. Secularism is the religion of Finland and the luthern church has not helped in this regard. Also, Finnish is the only language that I know of where satan’s name can be mentioned in a curse word and it is used quite often. The Finns love to call upon satan when they get angry or annoyed. SATANA! can be heard on the streets or PERKELE too. Both mean satan.

It’s done in Arabic and Romanian.

Yes, you’re correct. The Finns aren’t Poles (one of the most religious in Europe), but still the numbers in comparison to those around them is striking. I have to give the award for the worst influential Church to Sweden, which has now been disestablished after doing all its damage. Even its claim to Apostolic Succession has done nothing good.