Thomas's fifth way

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St. Thomas is my source. He wasn’t using the Five Ways to prove five different entities, but rather one entity. Often times people try and argue that the unmoved Mover, the First Cause, the Necessary Being, etc. are not necessarily the same thing. I word my explanation differently in order to better express that all these arguments are trying to point at the same being.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
" St. Thomas thought that theses arguments were not five separate arguments, but rather one argument with five parts. "

This is what I was objecting to. It seems to conflict with what you say on this post. I think this post is correct, he was concluding to the same God under different aspects.

Pax Christi
Linus2nd
 
I gave an example: Consider a falling stone and earth as the system. The system is subject to change since stone is falling. Now consider two snapshots of this system the first snapshot (F) comes before the the second snapshot(S). We can say that F causes S. F however cannot coexist with S. Hence F must disappear before S. This is problematic since it requires that F to exist and exist not. How do you resolve this paradox?

Anything which changes is subjected to this paradox.
You are all over the place on this one. The fact that there is a past, and a present to every event is beside the point. What the argument is getting at is that everything natural, unintelligent things do is done as if it were intentionally done to reach a definite end or goal. But natural things do not have intelligence, so how is their intentionality to be explained? It can only be explained if there is an intelligence which directs all things to a definite end.

Futher, all the systems of the universe, the heavenly bodies, the ecosystems of the earth, the cycle of life and death, even the actions of man, all seem to be coordinated to achieve some definite end or goal. All of this speaks to some intelligent guiding hand which is in control of everythng, directing everything to one common end. And this we call God.

And God, that perfectly conscious being, cannot be a part of the universe, because it is constantly changing. Furthermore man is the only intelligent being in this world and no man claims to be moving the universe. Now you might say that God existed in the universe. But that is rather awkward because reason alone does not tell us whether or not the universe had a beginning. So it is more reasonable to say that God is not a " part " of the universe. And of course, if the universe had an absolute beginning, then we would have to conclude definitely that God exists outside of the universe. ( Of course Catholics know that God exists outside of the universe, though he operates in it and is present to it by his very being. )

Linus2nd
 
" St. Thomas thought that theses arguments were not five separate arguments, but rather one argument with five parts. "

This is what I was objecting to. It seems to conflict with what you say on this post. I think this post is correct, he was concluding to the same God under different aspects.

Pax Christi
Linus2nd
I’m sorry, I might have wrote that in a confusing way. St. Thomas teaches all these “aspects of God” are not parts, but rather analogous understandings of the non understandable. These “aspects” are ultimately one in the same, for God is one and simple. So, I attempt to reword my presentation of the Ways to my debater, so that he can better understand what I’m getting at, as well as avoid the stupid objections of Dr. Richard Dawkins that many use today.

Bahman , you don’t seem to have any idea of what St. Thomas means by “cause”, “final cause”, or “intelligence”. Can you define these terms for us?

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result.
Could someone please explain what Aquinas meant by this? Take, for example, the earth as a planetary body. What is the ‘end’ for which it is ‘acting’? And what is the ‘best result’ associated with this act?
 
Could someone please explain what Aquinas meant by this? Take, for example, the earth as a planetary body. What is the ‘end’ for which it is ‘acting’? And what is the ‘best result’ associated with this act?
I think what you are thinking about is final cause, or in the Greek, telos. In post # 32 I provided a link to St. Thomas defining final cause:
Every agent acts for an end: otherwise one thing would not follow more than another from the action of the agent, unless it were by chance.
What he is saying here is actually one of the most obvious observations ever. I think that providing an example (taken from Author Mike Flynn’s blog) best illustrates this principle: final causality makes things change consistently. A tiger cub can consistently change into a tiger adult, but does not ever change (nor can it) into a tiger lily. There is some aspect of a thing (in this case, a tiger cub) that allows for the thing to change into one new thing (adult tiger) and not another (tiger lily). To get more technical, a tiger cub has the potential (or potency) to become an adult tiger, but does not have the potential to become a tiger lily. This potential is called final cause.

Without final causality, then one thing can turn into any thing at random. Instead of a piece of paper becoming a pile of ash and smoke (its final cause) when burning (the fire, btw, is the efficient cause, which actualizes the potential that is final cause) it might become…a banana, a jelly bean, a basketball, etc. If there is not potential for a thing to turn into some things and not other things, then causality makes no sense. St. Thomas didn’t have to argue for teleology, because he thought it was obvious. And it is.

Now, on to your question about earth. St. Thomas was limited to the science of his time, relying on Aristotle’s astronomy (which was the most scientific). I think that the best way of understanding the earth today is by pointing out that the earth is not “a thing,” but rather a set of things. A tree, a cat, Nixbits, and Lucretius are all “things,” but the earth is “a whole bunch of things” that we call, for simple linguistics purposes, and for the fact that the things a part of this system have many aspects in common, “the earth”.

This problem is similar to how people conceive the term “the universe.” Many people think of the universe as a box in which there may or may not be “stuff.” But the problem is that it seems as though the universe is a part of itself, or that the universe contains itself, which is incoherent. A better way, I think, of defining “the universe” is as the set of all physical things. So instead of a box, the universe can be pictured as a pile of stuff. Remember, the Lucretius-sun system, even if we call it the “Lucretisun”, is not really a thing, but two things defined together. “Lucretisun” is a linguistic trick, even if the sun and Lucretius have aspects in common.

I hope I have, in part, answered your questions.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
Thank you, Lucretius, for taking the time to try to explain this to me. I’ve now read some explanations of this translation of Thomas Aquinas’ Fifth Way. Aquinas’ argument seems to be this: What unintelligent natural bodies do seems to follow certain laws, laws are an indication of an intelligence, hence God must be that law-making intelligence.

Whether Aquinas was suggesting that an intelligence directly controls the actions of all natural bodies, or whether an intelligence created the laws which govern the actions of all natural bodies, it seems to me that his argument loses all credibility when we understand the nature of matter.

The ‘laws’ which govern the actions of natural bodies are just systems of describing those actions. These ‘laws’ share no commonality with actual laws that are intelligently created to govern behaviour. Physical laws are not necessarily an indication of an intelligence in the way that Aquinas suggests. If Aquinas had lived in a more scientifically enlightened age, I doubt that he would have proposed this argument (at least, not in the form presented in his Summa Theologica).

So for me, Aquinas was wrong in his initial premises and there’s no need to get as far as Bahman’s objection to it. (Sorry, Bahman, for not addressing your main point.)
 
Thank you, Lucretius, for taking the time to try to explain this to me. I’ve now read some explanations of this translation of Thomas Aquinas’ Fifth Way. Aquinas’ argument seems to be this: What unintelligent natural bodies do seems to follow certain laws, laws are an indication of an intelligence, hence God must be that law-making intelligence.

Whether Aquinas was suggesting that an intelligence directly controls the actions of all natural bodies, or whether an intelligence created the laws which govern the actions of all natural bodies, it seems to me that his argument loses all credibility when we understand the nature of matter.

The ‘laws’ which govern the actions of natural bodies are just systems of describing those actions. These ‘laws’ share no commonality with actual laws that are intelligently created to govern behaviour. Physical laws are not necessarily an indication of an intelligence in the way that Aquinas suggests. If Aquinas had lived in a more scientifically enlightened age, I doubt that he would have proposed this argument (at least, not in the form presented in his Summa Theologica).

So for me, Aquinas was wrong in his initial premises and there’s no need to get as far as Bahman’s objection to it. (Sorry, Bahman, for not addressing your main point.)
Modern science appeals to laws when describing overarching regularities that appear in nature, often to the point of acting as though the laws have some sort of causal powers, when all they really are are descriptions of regularities. Aquinas and Aristotle do not use this language. Instead they speak in terms of causal powers inherent in the nature of substances that are only intelligible in terms of efficient and final causality. He does see that the regularities that one can see throughout nature requires explanation. No regularities should exist if everything is relegated to chance. Chance does not produce regularities.

God bless,
Ut
 
Thank you, Lucretius, for taking the time to try to explain this to me. I’ve now read some explanations of this translation of Thomas Aquinas’ Fifth Way. Aquinas’ argument seems to be this: What unintelligent natural bodies do seems to follow certain laws, laws are an indication of an intelligence, hence God must be that law-making intelligence.

Whether Aquinas was suggesting that an intelligence directly controls the actions of all natural bodies, or whether an intelligence created the laws which govern the actions of all natural bodies, it seems to me that his argument loses all credibility when we understand the nature of matter.

The ‘laws’ which govern the actions of natural bodies are just systems of describing those actions. These ‘laws’ share no commonality with actual laws that are intelligently created to govern behaviour. Physical laws are not necessarily an indication of an intelligence in the way that Aquinas suggests. If Aquinas had lived in a more scientifically enlightened age, I doubt that he would have proposed this argument (at least, not in the form presented in his Summa Theologica).

So for me, Aquinas was wrong in his initial premises and there’s no need to get as far as Bahman’s objection to it. (Sorry, Bahman, for not addressing your main point.)
That doesn’t cut. To cut the head of this proof you have to have a right sword, and the right sword question the existence of indulgence in a system which just obey cause and effect itself. For other proofs you need to bring the attention of the believers to the fact that God and creation as they are defined are two mutually exclusive beings hence they could not interact with each other since they have nothing in common, so unless you have a boundary which is neither and share a common thing with each of them, they could not interact. You can conclude that God does not exist when you reach to conclusion that boundary does not exist.
 
Thank you, Lucretius, for taking the time to try to explain this to me. I’ve now read some explanations of this translation of Thomas Aquinas’ Fifth Way. Aquinas’ argument seems to be this: What unintelligent natural bodies do seems to follow certain laws, laws are an indication of an intelligence, hence God must be that law-making intelligence.

Whether Aquinas was suggesting that an intelligence directly controls the actions of all natural bodies, or whether an intelligence created the laws which govern the actions of all natural bodies, it seems to me that his argument loses all credibility when we understand the nature of matter.
What St. Thomas and Aristotle think of matter, they think of something more rich and empirical. How modern philosophers such as Galileo and Descartes define matter is a dumbed down, qualitative reification of what matter really is. Basically, they defined what they called “secondary qualities” out of objective existence and put them into the mind, leaving what they called “primary qualities” in the “objective” world. Primary qualities are quantitative, that it, they can be measured and mathematically modeled (size, shape, mass, etc.). Secondary qualities are sensations that can’t be measured in principle (color, taste, smell, etc.). The early moderns thought that matter was actually just primary qualities, and secondary qualities were imposed by the mind on the world (primary qualities=objective, while secondary qualities=subjective).

The problems with this view are many. One, for example, is that they are essentially defining out aspects of the outer world and placing them in the mind, simply because early science couldn’t create predictive models that can be used to make technology (remember, primary qualities can be mathematically modeled, while secondary qualities cannot). Of course, when you think that the outer world is a black and white coloring book that we view through a stain glass window, you end up turning secondary qualities into another substance. So, therefore, since secondary qualities are immaterial (by defining material as non secondary qualities), and that secondary qualities only exist in the mind, therefore the mind must by immaterial (substance dualism). But of course, how exactly do these substances interact is a mystery. And thus the mind-body problem was born (there is a reason why such a problem didn’t exist in any other philosophy system until Descartes).

Another problem is simply that it is not empirical. I see red in the apple. Common sense tells me that the apple is red, not that my mind is imposing red onto the apple in my consciousness. The fact that “red” doesn’t make sense to blind person should tell us that secondary qualities are just as objective as the primary qualities. Also, since I receive primary qualities with secondary qualities, then why should I doubt that one is objective and not the other? The early moderns simply argued that we should say that primary qualities are objective because of science (and technology). But that just begs the question, since science is based on the objectivity of primary qualities, and that is what is precisely what is at issue.
The ‘laws’ which govern the actions of natural bodies are just systems of describing those actions.
David Hume argued that the “laws of physics” were just statistical descriptions. The problem with this view is that it smuggles in the notion of telos while denying it. The fact is that proto-science in the Medieval period only happened because they argued for a teleological worldview. Hume said that you can’t prove that our thoughts on causality are in any way connected to reality. Which is true. However, science started out by assuming you can (based on Christian dogma). Or to be more specific, science only would have happened in a society that assumed final causes were real. Hume simply took advantage of his ancestor’s scientific metaphysics since he knew that it already worked (that is, it created effective technology). But, to deny these metaphysics makes science nonsense philosophically. Science under Hume’s philosophy simply cries out “why do I work? Why do these “laws” actually model reality? Is it because these laws are, you know, based in reality? Why should we assume that phenomenon will repeat itself intelligently?” Einstein writes:
You find it surprising that I think of the comprehensibility of the world… as a miracle or an eternal mystery. But surely, a priori, one should expect the world to be chaotic, not to be grasped by thought in any way. One might (indeed one should) expect that the world evidenced itself as lawful only so far as we grasp it in an orderly fashion. This would be a sort of order like the alphabetical order of words. On the other hand, the kind of order created, for example, by Newton’s gravitational theory is of a very different character. Even if the axioms of the theory are posited by man, the success of such a procedure supposes in the objective world a high degree of order, which we are in no way entitled to expect a priori. Therein lies the miracle which becomes more and more evident as our knowledge develops
Classical metaphysics make sense of science and also justifies it. Modern metaphysics does not, but rather takes advantage of the fact that classical metaphysics started science and justified it. Science is not even about truth anymore: it’s about power. The entire modern world is built in part of power struggles (but this is a different topic).

continued…
 
These ‘laws’ share no commonality with actual laws that are intelligently created to govern behaviour. Physical laws are not necessarily an indication of an intelligence in the way that Aquinas suggests.
You just stated your position, you have not provided defense of it. In fact, this whole thread is in part about this issue. You simply beg the question by assuming it. Also, see Einstein above.
If Aquinas had lived in a more scientifically enlightened age, I doubt that he would have proposed this argument (at least, not in the form presented in his Summa Theologica).
This is nonsense. Metaphysics is something that the scientific method assumes a priori. Now, since many today buy into the incorrect and incoherent metaphysics of the late modern world (at least early modern metaphysics were coherent. Now people literally try to deny the “use” of metaphysics :rolleyes: ), they think that science has proven them right, when it has not, and cannot.

Now, on the other hand, the Fifth Way was, in St. Thomas’s opinion, his weakest (that’s why it’s the last one). It is true that one doesn’t have to accept the Fifth Way in order to accept telos (Aristotle, for example, didn’t connect telos with intelligence).
So for me, Aquinas was wrong in his initial premises and there’s no need to get as far as Bahman’s objection to it. (Sorry, Bahman, for not addressing your main point.)
I might have come off as a little harsh in this post. I’m just intolerable towards error 😃

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
That doesn’t cut. To cut the head of this proof you have to have a right sword, and the right sword question the existence of indulgence in a system which just obey cause and effect itself. For other proofs you need to bring the attention of the believers to the fact that God and creation as they are defined are two mutually exclusive beings hence they could not interact with each other since they have nothing in common, so unless you have a boundary which is neither and share a common thing with each of them, they could not interact. You can conclude that God does not exist when you reach to conclusion that boundary does not exist.
What do you mean by “mutually exclusive”? Creation doesn’t exist in its own right (it’s not a necessary being by definition). From the Classical Theist point of view, all being that Creation has is from God, who is Being. Parmenides should be enough to show that two Beings cannot exist. It is true that Creation can’t reach the transcendent by itself, but it can by the help of the transcendent. I cannot climb out of the slippery mud pit by myself, but if someone outside the mud pit helps me, I can.

This is a strawman, I believe, since you are claiming that Christians believe in a doctrine that is logically incoherent, while we do not believe in said doctrine. I’m starting to really think you have no idea what you are writing about 🤷

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
What do you mean by “mutually exclusive”? Creation doesn’t exist in its own right (it’s not a necessary being by definition). From the Classical Theist point of view, all being that Creation has is from God, who is Being. Parmenides should be enough to show that two Beings cannot exist. It is true that Creation can’t reach the transcendent by itself, but it can by the help of the transcendent. I cannot climb out of the slippery mud pit by myself, but if someone outside the mud pit helps me, I can.

This is a strawman, I believe, since you are claiming that Christians believe in a doctrine that is logically incoherent, while we do not believe in said doctrine. I’m starting to really think you have no idea what you are writing about 🤷

Christi pax,

Lucretius
Let me give you this example. Consider two persons that they speak different languages. These two persons are mutually exclusive if the language is the only thing they can have in common. Simply they cannot affect each other. They could however interact with each other if there exist an translator in which s/he knows both languages. You can come up with thousand of example. Just look around.
 
Lucretius, thank you for your reply to my post, although I don’t think that I agree with you. I admit that a lot of the problems I have with discussions like these are caused by terminology. When I read the translation of Aquinas’ Fifth Way I understood him to be talking about what natural bodies do and making an inference from that. I was thinking solely about the physics and not the metaphysics per se. Aquinas’ assertion about natural laws and intelligence does not accord with my understanding of the nature of matter and the physical laws that describe how matter acts.

I still maintain that, if Aquinas had lived in, say, the 20th century, he would not have proposed his Fifth Way in this form. I still maintain that the law of gravity and a law that makes murder illegal are fundamentally different in type.

I too am frequently intolerant of error. To my way of thinking Aquinas was wrong, or else expressed his idea poorly. I believe that we are unlikely to agree on this issue, but I thank you for your continued erudition and contribution to this and other threads.
 
Let me give you this example. Consider two persons that they speak different languages. These two persons are mutually exclusive if the language is the only thing they can have in common. Simply they cannot affect each other. They could however interact with each other if there exist an translator in which s/he knows both languages. You can come up with thousand of example. Just look around.
First of all that is an elementary error in judgment. People, the native American Indian tribes for example, often communicated by sign language sign language. And when in a foreign country Missionaries often communicated with native tribes by sign language. So you explanation is false from the get go.

Secondly God and humans are different classes of beings all together. If God created us, he certainly know how to communicate with us and he will understand what we say to him in our thoughts and prayrers. That should be a matter of common sense to most people.

Linus2nd
 
First of all that is an elementary error in judgment. People, the native American Indian tribes for example, often communicated by sign language sign language. And when in a foreign country Missionaries often communicated with native tribes by sign language. So you explanation is false from the get go.

Secondly God and humans are different classes of beings all together. If God created us, he certainly know how to communicate with us and he will understand what we say to him in our thoughts and prayrers. That should be a matter of common sense to most people.

Linus2nd
Why so? Thomas is correct if he argues that causality rules because everything that we know obey causality! But in my case, no no no…
 
I still maintain that, if Aquinas had lived in, say, the 20th century, he would not have proposed his Fifth Way in this form. I still maintain that the law of gravity and a law that makes murder illegal are fundamentally different in type.
It depends on what you mean by “law”. What if I reworded St. Thomas a bit? Instead of thinking of “the law of gravity is to be attracted to others of its kind”, think of “the nature of matter is to be attracted to others of its kind.” That is what St. Thomas is writing. In the same way, “the law of humans is to not to murder each other” can better be stated “the nature of humans is not to murder each other.” However, he is NOT talking about positive law in this case. Positive laws are the laws that a society agrees upon. Natural laws are based in the nature of a thing, while positive laws are based on the consensus of people in a society. St. Thomas is talking about Natural Laws.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
But, Lucretius, in that case Aquinas is still making a connection between the ‘natural laws’ describing the behaviour of unintelligent natural bodies (like rocks) and the ‘natural laws’ that might be used to describe the behaviour of intelligent creatures. As such, I don’t agree with his analogy.
 
But, Lucretius, in that case Aquinas is still making a connection between the ‘natural laws’ describing the behaviour of unintelligent natural bodies (like rocks) and the ‘natural laws’ that might be used to describe the behaviour of intelligent creatures. As such, I don’t agree with his analogy.
Found your problem. The Fifth Way is trying to prove that all telos requires intelligence. You are assuming that some telos does not require intelligence, despite the fact that it is exactly what is at issue, which begs the question. You have to show that some telos does not require intelligence, or deny the existence of telos as such.

If you want to better understand what St Thomas is writing about with God being the cause of everything, look up the distinction between primary cause and secondary causes.

In the Last Superstition by Dr. Ed Feser, he explains the details of the Fifth Way.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
Lucretius, this may indeed be the root of my problem with understanding Aquinas’ Fifth Way.
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Lucretius:
The Fifth Way is trying to prove that all telos requires intelligence.
If this is the case, Aquinas is asserting that the action of a natural body, such as a rock falling to the ground, is evidence of a purpose (telos).

With an intelligent living thing I can accept that its actions can be attributed to an intent, a purpose. With a rock falling to the ground due to gravity I do not accept that the rock (or the ground) have a purpose, nor am I convinced that some other intelligence is purposefully controlling the action of the rock. So, with regard to telos I see a distinction that leads me to dismiss Aquinas’ Fifth Way. Unless his definition of telos is so broad as to be worthless.
40.png
Lucretius:
You have to show that some telos does not require intelligence, or deny the existence of telos as such.
I do not deny the existence of telos. Some, most, maybe all intelligent things demonstrate purpose. When an amoeba changes its shape to move and eat, is it demonstrating intelligence or just demonstrating biochemical responses to environmental stimuli? Does Aquinas provide his working definition of ‘intelligence’?

But some actions seem to imply purpose, when it’s not actually purpose at all. To me, Aquinas is characterising rocks falling due to gravity as rocks acting in order to achieve a goal. I don’t adhere to his view of the behaviour of natural bodies. In my opinion, the onus is not on me to show that some telos does not require intelligence. The onus is on Aquinas to show that natural bodies act purposefully, in a way identical or at least analogous to the purposeful actions of intelligent creatures. Perhaps he did this in one of his works, but I don’t see this demonstrated in his Fifth Way.

Nevertheless, it’s an interesting topic.
 
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