Those Against Capital Punishment, Against War But FOR ABORTION?

[PLAL]

Someone brought up the fact he/she could never figure out how someone could be Against Capital Punishment, Against War but FOR ABORTION??

I would like to start a debate on this topic. Besides talking about personal positions on these issues I would also like to ask another question…

Do you vote or support political candidates or political parties who are Against Capital Punishment, Against War and FOR ABORTION? Please explain why you do or do not.

Similar Threads…

Your Response to Those Who State You Cannot Be 100% Pro-Life & For the Death Penalty?

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http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=79615&page=2

Catholic and Democrat?

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http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=84770&page=2&pp=100

 

[vern_humphrey]

PLAL:

Someone brought up the fact he/she could never figure out how someone could be Against Capital Punishment, Against War but FOR ABORTION??

I would like to start a debate on this topic. Besides talking about personal positions on these issues I would also like to ask another question…

Do you vote or support political candidates or political parties who are Against Capital Punishment, Against War and FOR ABORTION? Please explain why you do or do not.

Similar Threads…

Your Response to Those Who State You Cannot Be 100% Pro-Life & For the Death Penalty?

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=79615&page=2

Catholic and Democrat?

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=84770&page=2&pp=100

It seemed to me that “Protect the innocent, punish the guilty” is a fairly easy rule to understand.

 

[PLAL]

Abortion vs. War

This column requires extra effort to explain what it is not. It is not an evaluation of the war in Iraq or of any national leaders.

It is, however, an observation, on the level of moral principle, about the relationship between abortion, war, and being pro-life. And even there, I am limiting myself to a couple of very simple and specific points, and not an exhaustive analysis.

In his historic speech to the United Nations in 1965, Pope Paul VI cried out, “War never again, war never again!” The world must heed these words. They don’t just mean, “Don’t fight!” They mean that we have to make justice and human rights so secure that the need to fight disappears.

Many ask whether one can be a good Catholic or be pro-life and support the war. The answer is yes, which is to say that Catholic and pro-life teaching do allow for circumstances in which war is justified, because sometimes war has to be waged precisely for the defense of life.

Even when war is justified, life is always lost in the process. But innocent life is never targeted, and that makes all the difference in the world. How many innocent lives, and how many children, have been deliberately targeted for destruction in the current war?

By comparison, *every *abortion deliberately targets and destroys a child; otherwise, it isn’t even an abortion.

The purpose of war is not to kill the enemy, but rather to deprive the enemy of his ability to wage war and to destroy others’ rights. There’s a big difference between targeting military/communications equipment to disrupt the operations of the enemy, and just trying to kill as many people as you can.

No doubt, some will read this column and begin arguing with me that the war in Iraq is not justified. This column is not arguing with them, but precisely pointing out that it is OK for them to come to that conclusion. It is also OK for someone else to come to the conclusion that the war is justified.

What is not OK is for someone to say, “You are not pro-life because you support the war.” In fact, one may support the war precisely because he or she is pro-life and concludes that in this case, force is the only way to protect human life, human rights, and human freedom from the hands of those who would destroy it. Others may disagree with the conclusion, which is fine – but don’t deny the other person’s right to come to the conclusion.

And do not miss the profound difference with abortion. There is no room for interpretations or evaluations of whether abortion may be justified. It cannot be, because its very essence is the deliberate targeting and destruction of a child. In war, we do not target a single child, whereas every abortion targets a child. Catholic teaching allows more than one position on war, but it does not allow more than one position on abortion.

-Fr. Frank Pavone priestsforlife.org/columns/columns2004/04-06-14abortionvswar.htm

 

[vern_humphrey]

My experience is those who support abortion will dredge up any excuse. If there were no war, there’d be some other excuse – "I voted for a pro-abortion candidate because he opposes . . . "

 

[MommaKat]

PLAL and Vern this thread will not be responed to by many. It requires deeper thought. So many in our society don’t know how to think. We long ago stop teaching decent philsophy. So it seems we have more people who use emotions and not concrete thought. We need to teach our people how to think again.

 

[vern_humphrey]

MommaKat:

PLAL and Vern this thread will not be responed to by many. It requires deeper thought. So many in our society don’t know how to think. We long ago stop teaching decent philsophy. So it seems we have more people who use emotions and not concrete thought. We need to teach our people how to think again.

Critical thinking is dangrous – people who use it are liable to wind up changing some of their cherished, but mistaken beliefs. Can’t have that!! http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[PLAL]

vern humphrey:

It seemed to me that “Protect the innocent, punish the guilty” is a fairly easy rule to understand.

I agree with your statement.

This brings up another question. Isn’t the Democratic Party Platform stand for being Against Capital Punishment, Against War But FOR ABORTION? Abortion is ALWAYS AGAINST Catholic Teaching.

So why do many “so-called Catholics” vote Democrat or for politicians who are Against Capital Punishment, Against War BUT FOR ABORTION?

and it gets even worse! The Democratic Party Platform stands for killing human beings (human embyronic stem cell research) for the benefit of other human beings.

The Democratic Party Platform also stands for homosexual unions/marriage which goes against God’s original plan. The Democrat support for these two issues also goes against CATHOLIC TEACHING.

So back to my question – Why do many “so-called Catholics” vote Democrat or for politicians who are Against Capital Punishment, Against War BUT FOR ABORTION?

MommaKat,

Here’s someone who obviously gave this issue some deep serious thought …

illinoisleader.com/letters/lettersview.asp?c=2476

 

[vern_humphrey]

PLAL:

So back to my question – Why do many “so-called Catholics” vote Democrat or for politicians who are Against Capital Punishment, Against War BUT FOR ABORTION?

Why, I don’t know - -but I do know that those who vote for pro-abortion politicians will scrape up every possible reason to justify ther votes.

I even had one supposedly-Catholic poster on another forum tell me, “It is ethically dishonest to say being pro-choice is the same as being pro-abortion.”

Of course I replied, “It is ethically dishonest to say being pro-choice is** not** the same as being pro-abortion.”

 

[Fitz]

I used to vote for people that were personally opposed to abortion, but were not prolife in their votes. I don’t know why I did that except I have now become more aware of how important our vote really is.

I also had to quit my party affiliation with the Democrats. I will vote Democrat again only if they find some good prolife candidates.

I have never seen anyone make an issure out of the capital punishment point. I have seen politicians, governors to be exact, once in office do somthing to get rid of the death penalty.

As far as war goes, we really don’t know what our politicians will do until the situation comes up. If we don’t like their voting record, then we don’t reelect them.

 

[PLAL]

vern humphrey:

Why, I don’t know - -but I do know that those who vote for pro-abortion politicians will scrape up every possible reason to justify ther votes.

I even had one supposedly-Catholic poster on another forum tell me, “It is ethically dishonest to say being pro-choice is the same as being pro-abortion.”

Of course I replied, “It is ethically dishonest to say being pro-choice is** not** the same as being pro-abortion.”

Usually when someone tells me they are “Pro Choice” I ask them a few questions…

I ask them "What is it you are pro-choice about…

Is it you are PRO-CHOICE on letting all motorists decide whether or not they want to stop at a red light?"

Is it you are PRO-CHOICE on legalizing rape in America?"

or Is it you are PRO-CHOlCE on what condiments you want on your hamburger?"

This forces PRO-CHOICERS to at least finish their sentence when using the word “Pro-Choice”. Therefore they now have to say “They are PRO-CHOICE on killing unborn babies in the womb”. Or these people might begin to believe its easier to state they are “Pro-Abortion” instead of using the words “Pro-Choice”.

It’s a tedious process, but we have to teach people who are Pro-Abortion how to speak!

 

[vluvski]

I have a personal experience to share that directly relates to this topic.

My Catholic Campus Ministry wasn’t terribly traditional, to put it lightly. The priest had been there, away, and back again, and wasn’t interested in doing much to really serve the students. The “community” there was comprised basically of Catholic misfits and dissenters who didn’t fit in very well anywhere else. They have a very strong alliance with groups opposing capital punishment, proudly display anti-war signs, apparell, bumper stickers, you name it… yet will not offer any support for pro-life causes.

Well, the priest (finally) retired, and was replaced by a more moderate priest, who after a year was replaced by another moderate priest who didn’t know what to stand for. It was during this third priest’s tenure that I had the fortunate or unfortunate position of Catholic Campus Minister.

Before the elections, I posted copies of the CAF voting guides four or five times. Each time, my bulletin board was rearranged with some pretend-to-be-Catholic anti-war, anti-death penalty, pro-welfare etc… propoganda. Finally I just took that junk down and didn’t replace it with mine. It got to the point that I couldn’t go to particular Masses without feeling violent.

On one particular occasion, the retired priest was visiting, and I made my usual petition for an end to abortion and euthenasia. The priest makes his own immediately following, “For an end to all injustice, an end to war and poverty and the death penalty.”

So his inflection was enough to be irritating, but I was in a good mood that day and I didn’t disagree with the petition, so I was willing to go along with it. Then this *********************** family, the ones who kept putting up all their propaganda on MY bulletin board, actually sneers out loud for the entire congregation to hear and glances in my direction.

In an effort to unify the community, I participated in their anti-death penalty activities. One of the families sponsors a house for families of inmates on death row. Another runs the vigils. I offered all of them whatever support the CCM could give. They never once returned the favor.

People like this have a serious disconnect in their brains. They’ve been so indoctrinated to the democratic platform that they fail to see the true disservice it does to all of society. Maybe they think abortion is wrong; I never wanted to ask because I was afraid of their answer. In any case, they have convinced themselves that they can make a bigger difference in capital punishment and war and poverty because they allow themselves to believe that the pro-life cause is futile.

Another problem is that these people tend to be very needy of proof. An inmate is something they can easily understand, someone they can meet, someone with whom they can sympathize. War casualties, photos of piles of bodies- easy to recognize the tragedy there, too. Yet they’re so wrapped up in these other tragedies that perhaps hit a little closer to home that they won’t believe pictures of aborted babies are authentic.

I’ve come to the conclusion that you cannot reason with an insane person. They are living in an artificial reality, and no amount of evidence or logic or scripture or ANYthing is going to change their mind, perhaps not even a miracle.

 

[vern_humphrey]

PLAL:

Usually when someone tells me they are “Pro Choice” I ask them a few questions…

I ask them "What is it you are pro-choice about…

Is it you are PRO-CHOICE on letting all motorists deciding whether or not they want to stop at a red light?"

Is it you are PRO-CHOICE on legalizing rape in America?"

or Is it you are PRO-CHOlCE on what condiments you want on your hamburger?"

This forces PRO-CHOICERS to at least finish their sentence when using the word “Pro-Choice”. Therefore they now have to say “They are PRO-CHOICE on killing unborn babies in the womb”. Or these people might begin to believe its easier to state they are “Pro-Abortion” instead of using the words “Pro-Choice”.

It’s a tedious process, but we have to teach people who are Pro-Abortion how to speak!

The essense of the pro-choice philosophy is that “choices” are devoid of moral implications. Which is the whole underpinning of the pro-abortion idea.

 

[PLAL]

vluvski:

I’ve come to the conclusion that you cannot reason with an insane person. They are living in an artificial reality, and no amount of evidence or logic or scripture or ANYthing is going to change their mind, perhaps not even a miracle.

Yes, I really just do not understand people. Especially “so-called Catholics” who vote for the Pro-Abortion Democrat Party or for Pro-Abortion politicians.

It’s like you want to ask them – What if Mary & Joseph were Pro-Choice?? but these people still probably would not understand.

worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36120

Sometimes all you can do is pray for people.

 

[coyote]

So the actual agenda of this thread is to generally bash the Democratic Party and blanket anyone that allies with it?

Humans can and do legislate choices.
But God decided that we would have choice.
Regardless whether humans have decided to make some choices acceptable and other choices illegal, the individual still has the God given right to make the choice for him or herself.

There are legitimate points to be made against certain Republicans also.

The essense of the pro-choice philosophy is that “choices” are devoid of moral implications. Which is the whole underpinning of the pro-abortion idea.

Is it? How so?

 

[vern_humphrey]

coyote:

So the actual agenda of this thread is to generally bash the Democratic Party and blanket anyone that allies with it?

Humans can and do legislate choices.
But God decided that we would have choice.
Regardless whether humans have decided to make some choices acceptable and other choices illegal, the individual still has the God given right to make the choice for him or herself.

He also decreed that some of these choices are wrong. And choosing to kill an unborn child is as wrong as killing the same child after it’s born.

coyote:

There are legitimate points to be made against certain Republicans also.

Sure, but the Republican Party as a whole opposes abortion, while the Democrat Party has a pro-abortion plank in its platform.

coyote:

Is it? How so?

When one plays the fool, one runs the risk that others may think one is not playing.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[vluvski]

I might also add that it became very apparent in our artificial birth control debates that these same people are very into personal convenience. Their entire argument consisted of, “What if you have to abstain on your anniversary, or Valentine’s Day, or what if you just had a big fight and want to have make-up sex? Or what if you have to abstain on your honeymoon?”
So? What if you do? I mean, God forbid He asks us to do something gasp difficult! Yes, it will be royally difficult if my fiance and I found ourselves abstaining during our honeymoon, but tough cookies! If you have a reason serious enough to avoid pregnancy, you’ll get over it.
I really couldn’t believe I was speaking with 50 and 60 year old “adults” and not rebellious teenagers who are just trying to make waves. Then I get the melodramatic “Well, I just get really scared when someone says they know the truth, because, you know, I believe that life is a journey to search for the truth, and I’m 57 years old and I still haven’t found it yet…”
I wanted to say, “Yes, you should be scared, because the truth is sitting right under your nose and you don’t seem to think it’s worth the effort. Yes, be very scared!” Never mind that Humanae Vitae predicted exactly what has happened with the sexual revolution.
The bottom line for them is me me me. Don’t get me wrong, they’re very active in the community, but it’s always the feel-good type services like Habitat for Humanity, mission trips, something where they can come back and tell everyone what a huge difference they made. Yes, these ministries are important, and I’m glad they participate, but it isn’t about helping the other people; it’s about feeling good about helping other people. There is a difference.
We cannot expect someone who doesn’t see beyond the personal gratification of community service to understand the value of the pro-life movement. We are asking these women to make a sacrifice for nine months and perhaps the rest of their life. We’re asking them to endure painful labor and delivery, face shame and scorn during their entire pregnancy.
They sure wouldn’t want to be the ones going through all that grief, and do unto others, right?

 

[vluvski]

coyote:

Humans can and do legislate choices.

True.

coyote:

But God decided that we would have choice.

True

coyote:

Regardless whether **humans have decided ** to make some choices acceptable and other choices illegal

False. Absolute truth is just that- absolute truth. It really doesn’t matter what choices we humans decide are acceptable. Right is right and wrong is wrong, and God makes that call.

coyote:

, the individual still has the God given right to make the choice for him or herself.

True, just don’t confuse a right to any choice with any choice is right.

coyote:

There are legitimate points to be made against certain Republicans also…

Yes, the Republican platform is flawed, too, just not as flawed as the Democratic one.

 

[TuckaMo]

MY BEEF AGAINST THIS CRUD IS THAT
if God intended a child to be born, let it be born
“What God hath put together, let no man put asunder.”

BUT, the Cathechism does not totally condemn the Death Penalty (although I am morally opposed)
It does not totally dismiss the Death Penalty, unless there are other options available…
REPLY IF I AM WRONG!

 

[dal11]

Here’s one for all of you. How many people are against abortion, but use the birth control pill. How’s that for an oxy moron.

 

[vluvski]

dal11:

Here’s one for all of you. How many people are against abortion, but use the birth control pill. How’s that for an oxy moron.

This is a lack of education; most people do not realize the abortifacient properties of the pill or the IUD or so many other means of ABC.