Those who have overcome trials in courtship, how do you fix emotional betrayal?

[Xantippe]

I see I’ve touched a chord…which frankly is exactly what I hoped would occur.

I also find it noteworthy that lots of posters now seem to acknowledge that there are a lot of facts we don’t know. Then why all this “cut him loose!” and “to the curb!”?

It’s not up to me to say why this is such a great romance. My points were that posters were not being evenhanded; that we really couldn’t say who was at fault; and that for all we know the OPs maturity was an issue as well.

**We don’t need to exactly weigh and assign fault.

If the OP is immature, that’s all the more reason for her to move on and try to make better decisions next time. If she is immature, it’s very unlikely that she has chosen wisely with regard to this relationship or that this relationship has a good future ahead of it.

This is a boyfriend/girlfriend thing–it doesn’t need to be given the sort of benefit of the doubt that we give married relationships. **

I’d say those were well made judging by the responses! We’re only hearing her side and yet posters seem awfully quick to kick boyfriend to the curb. I suspect the young man might tell a different version of events…

As Hoosier Daddy pointed out, this should be the easy part. Relationships are always going to be harder once you are married and have kids. Why pursue a dating relationship that is already so drama-filled?

It’s possible that the OP herself is addicted to drama–a lot of us are as young women. However, that’s all the more reason for her to move on from this relationship and try to do better next time.

 

[Xantippe]

I’ll take a wild guess and assume that the OP is well under 30. If that is the case, there’s no rush–this is not the last single Catholic man on earth.

 

[DarkLight]

Ok, as a frequent female friend, my rules always were:

(1) No lying. It’s disrespectful to everyone, frankly. I’m sure the girlfriend doesn’t appreciate it and frankly I don’t want to be friends with a guy who would lie about me.

(2) Nothing any reasonable person would consider flirting. No one needs the confusion.

(3) I don’t do complaining and I don’t want to hear secrets. If you have to preface it with she told me not to say this, I don’t want to hear it.

The fact that he’s not sticking to those is for me a major red flag.

 

[PolarGuy]

So now we’re up to “OP might be immature but all the more reason she should kick him to the curb and do better next time.”

So if he’s immature she should dump him…and also if she’s the immature one??

Team pink (I like that one!) is not doing itself any favors tonight.

I’ve made my point. Perhaps we ought ruminate about how quickly we tell others to dump someone without all the facts.

 

[Xantippe]

So now we’re up to “OP might be immature but all the more reason she should kick him to the curb and do better next time.”

So if he’s immature she should dump him…and also if she’s the immature one??

Team pink (I like that one!) is not doing itself any favors tonight.

I’ve made my point. Perhaps we ought ruminate about how quickly we tell others to dump someone without all the facts.

If a premarital relationship isn’t working, it’s not necessary to point fingers or try to force it to work. You just move on, find a good person who is willing to respect your boundaries, and try to be a good and reasonable girlfriend or girlfriend.

If it’s meant to be, it’s going to be a lot easier and more rewarding than this. I promise!

Polar Guy, you married?

 

[EasterJoy]

I see I’ve touched a chord…which frankly is exactly what I hoped would occur.

I also find it noteworthy that lots of posters now seem to acknowledge that there are a lot of facts we don’t know. Then why all this “cut him loose!” and “to the curb!”?

It’s not up to me to say why this is such a great romance. My points were that posters were not being evenhanded; that we really couldn’t say who was at fault; and that for all we know the OPs maturity was an issue as well. I’d say those were well made judging by the responses! We’re only hearing her side and yet posters seem awfully quick to kick boyfriend to the curb. I suspect the young man might tell a different version of events…

Did you notice the OP did not say they were “dating”? The OP said “courting.” That implies looking for a spouse.

After all, how much flirting with other women, listening to badmouthing of your girlfriend by the same other women, and hiding it when you are breaking an agreement do you think the OP ought to overlook if you were her boyfriend? If your girlfriend got upset because you shared personal things with the wrong person, and you agreed not to do it, and then you went and did it again, how is that one mistake? That’s more like violating probation. How many mulligans would you expect? How long would you watch your immature friend treat his girlfriend like this before you’d start hoping she’d tell him to take a hike and maybe wake him up? Is it OK for him to treat her like that because she’s not so mature herself? Maybe the two of them aren’t quite grown up enough to engage in anything that ought to be called “courting”?

Sometimes people grow up, but sometimes they don’t. If the OP is young, then perhaps after some time has passed she and this fellow might have another go of it, and she may find they’ve both grown up a lot. Great. If not, she has given herself permission to say “I will not tolerate this” in a relationship and to make it stick. I will not tolerate breaking promises to me and hiding it. I will not tolerate flirting with other women or allowing them to flirt with you. I will not tolerate sharing our personal issues with just anybody you feel like sharing them with, but especially not another woman who is obviously no friend of mine. That is very important.

If he made an agreement, hid it and then lied to her face about it–goodbye. Life is too short. Find your second chance with someone else, and good luck to you both.

 

[Xantippe]

So if he’s immature she should dump him…and also if she’s the immature one??

You got it.

I’ve made my point. Perhaps we ought ruminate about how quickly we tell others to dump someone without all the facts.

We’re never going to get “all the facts.”

 

[underacloud]

I also find it noteworthy that lots of posters now seem to acknowledge that there are a lot of facts we don’t know. Then why all this “cut him loose!” and “to the curb!”?

There are a lot of facts we don’t know. But the OP has posted here seeking advice and posted what she feels are the relevant facts, and people have responded on that basis.

There may be two sides to the story, but we’re not acting as mediators here, we are simply responding to the one person who asked for advice. Advice she can freely disregard anyway.

Posted by a member of “Team Blue”.

 

[1newcatholic]

I’m surprised by the number of posters who jumped on the “dump him” bandwagon. I hope the OP knows to carefully evaluate the advice of people who will confirm her worst suspicions without any personal knowledge of the boy in question, for whom I will now play devil’s advocate, because the OP should see it from multiple sides:

Did you make an unreasonable demand on your new boyfriend, like, “You can’t talk about your life with your female friends that you had before me?” and then freak out when it happened anyway?

No man is ever going to live up to all your expectations. It’s not going to happen.

You sound a little insecure in your relationship, and insecure people bail at the first sign of trouble–the first time they are disappointed, the first time they are hurt. You said this happened ONCE: that he spoke to someone else about your relationship. Is that correct?

If I understand what you wrote, they didn’t make out, or go on a date. He told his friend stuff about his relationship with you. That’s normal. People talk to each other. They send each other pictures and text messages. Don’t suffocate him. Boyfriends and girlfriends cannot and should not “be all things” to each other. If you can’t handle being sad sometimes in a relationship, you are going to be unhappy for a very long time. Good marriages survive disappointments and character flaws. Dating is a chance to begin learning that very important skill: charity.

*EDIT: this all changes if you find dirty pictures or texting on his phone, or catch them making out–but if you feel compelled to police his activities like that anyway…

Go in peace.

 

[mariemargaret]

Here’s my 2 cents and attempt to answer your questions:

If you want to work on the relationship, you both will need to have a frank conversation about your concerns. In this conversation, you tell him what your comfort level is with his interactions with this other girl, and really with any other girls. He ~should~ respect your boundaries in this regard. He should value your feelings about this and he really should want to understand why this bothers you, and not want to hurt you in this way.

One caveat about this; there are guys who connect better to women and have mostly female friends. It is tough and perhaps not fair to limit their ability to have female friends. HOWEVER… those friendships need to be completely non-flirtatious!! Nothing more than friendship at all. If this is the case with your boyfriend, you can decide if this is something you will be comfortable with for the rest of your life or not.

If you want to work on this relationship, he will need to make some changes to rebuild trust. First, he needs to really understand what he did to break your trust. Really, he might not understand that you really don’t want him sharing details of your relationship problems, or that you really don’t want him sharing those details with her, or whatever the issue is. Then he needs to be trustworthy. He needs to show you over and over that he is trustworthy. Over time, the trust will rebuild.

And, you have to forgive him.

I think you’ll know whether you want to continue in this courtship by how he deals with this frank conversation, and what happens after.

I will be praying for you to have wisdom about how to proceed, and for God to guide this conversation so you have clarity about what to do. God bless you!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m surprised by the number of posters who jumped on the “dump him” bandwagon. I hope the OP knows to carefully evaluate the advice of people who will confirm her worst suspicions without any personal knowledge of the boy in question, for whom I will now play devil’s advocate, because the OP should see it from multiple sides:

Did you make an unreasonable demand on your new boyfriend, like, “You can’t talk about your life with your female friends that you had before me?” and then freak out when it happened anyway?

No man is ever going to live up to all your expectations. It’s not going to happen.

You sound a little insecure in your relationship, and insecure people bail at the first sign of trouble–the first time they are disappointed, the first time they are hurt. You said this happened ONCE: that he spoke to someone else about your relationship. Is that correct?

If I understand what you wrote, they didn’t make out, or go on a date. He told his friend stuff about his relationship with you. That’s normal. People talk to each other. They send each other pictures and text messages. Don’t suffocate him. Boyfriends and girlfriends cannot and should not “be all things” to each other. If you can’t handle being sad sometimes in a relationship, you are going to be unhappy for a very long time. Good marriages survive disappointments and character flaws. Dating is a chance to begin learning that very important skill: charity.

*EDIT: this all changes if you find dirty pictures or texting on his phone, or catch them making out–but if you feel compelled to police his activities like that anyway…

Go in peace.

OR she could just find someone who won’t lie to her and tell their intimate information to other (perhaps interested) women…

There is always that option, right?

 

[1newcatholic]

OR she could just find someone who won’t lie to her and tell their intimate information to other (perhaps interested) women…

There is always that option, right?

“He promised me in the past that he wouldn’t share personal information and I felt that it was nobody’s business but ours.”

You don’t know what she’s even talking about: “personal information” is a pretty big data set, and “I felt that it was nobody’s business but ours” is a pretty subjective range. The fact that she didn’t include anything even vaguely resembling specifics felt like a strong indicator that there is part of the story (her part) that she doesn’t want us to know.

It sounds like they need to have an earnest discussion and make some mutual compromises in order to build trust and an enduring relationship. You know, like adults.

*Edit: But yeah, she could always just throw away her boyfriend for a first-time mistake.

 

[1newcatholic]

So if the OP was a man, and his girlfriend was spending lots of time with another man, who was badmouthing the boyfriend and sending the girlfriend flirtatious photos of himself, you’d think the advice would differ? I think not.

I’m not sure that’s what was said. I agree with PolarGuy that there are a lot of important details omitted, suspiciously, in the OP’s account.

If what you describe was happening in the case of either gender, my response would be different. But that’s not what the OP described. She vaguely described feeling uncomfortable with the sharing of some sort of information she feels is personal, and implied that maybe the girl could send him “flirtatious” (i.e. friendly) pictures and texts, and she insisted that she was in some way insulted by something that was said.

The details are too vague to get all hard-core “dump him!”

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m not sure that’s what was said. I agree with PolarGuy that there are a lot of important details omitted in the OP’s account.

If what you describe was happening in the case of either gender, my response would be different. But that’s not what the OP described. She vaguely described feeling uncomfortable with some sort of information she feels is personal, and implied that maybe the girl could send him “flirtatious” pictures and texts (i.e. friendly), and she insisted that she was in some way insulted by something that was said.

The details are too vague to get all hard-core “dump him!”

Oh there are more details. There always are. But they come mostly in the form that strays away from “gee, he is just a great guy and this is his only screw up.”

If the poster is betrayed enough to post here, there is more to it than a one time deal.

My wife and I did one year long distance before we were married. We had an agreement that still stands to this day 13 years and 5 kids later. If either of us were uncomfortable with a situation, we told the other, the other, then did not do it. This was anything, it engages incredible trust in someone to give them veto rights over your freedom. You find out right away if the other person is either controlling or sneaky.

I wanted to go to a concert once, with a pretty wild crowd. She said no, I was fine with that. It was probably better than the trouble I would have been surrounded by.

She had a mouse in her dorm room once. She was going to stay in a male’s room whom she was friends with, I said no, she pulled the “oh don’t worry he is gay” line and I still said I did not like the idea at all. So she found someone else to stay with.

Here is the thing, if she had lied to me, or I lied to her, and she found out about it or I found out about it it would have been a deal breaker. And that is why I know I can trust her and she can trust me, because I know her character. And I know it because of how she acted when we were courting.

Think of it this way, if the OPs boyfriend loved her like a man would love a wife, then wouldn’t the last thing he would want to do is hurt her, much less divulge personal stuff about her to another girl? That is no honorable, laying his life down for his woman type of man. He can learn from the incident and maybe make a great husband to a woman someday. And she can find someone who is marriage ready.

 

[underacloud]

I’m not sure that’s what was said. I agree with PolarGuy that there are a lot of important details omitted, suspiciously, in the OP’s account.

If what you describe was happening in the case of either gender, my response would be different. But that’s not what the OP described. She vaguely described feeling uncomfortable with the sharing of some sort of information she feels is personal, and implied that maybe the girl could send him “flirtatious” (i.e. friendly) pictures and texts, and she insisted that she was in some way insulted by something that was said.

The details are too vague to get all hard-core “dump him!”

What I describe? You seem to think I’m making this up or twisting her words. Oh well, everyone can read the OP for themselves.

What you say is “some sort of information” was described plainly as “our problems” and she doesn’t seem at all vague in feeling uncomfortable.

And no, she didn’t “imply that maybe the girl could send…” etc… She described it as having happened and as something she confronted him about.

Anyway, people can re-read the OP for themselves.

And the OP herself can take any advice with a grain of salt. Clearly not all opinions are to “dump him”, and few of those opinions were expressed in a hardcore fashion, but unless the OP wants to clarify further, my opinion remains that it doesn’t sound like a great relationship to persist with, especially given the OP herself described the trust as having been broken.

 

[LoveJesus13]

Hi guys thank you again for all of your advice. I truly appreciate it. I didn’t know that it would get a discussion about dumping him or not. To clarify, my boyfriend is NOT a bad guy as I have mentioned. I truly feel blessed to have him not just because he’s Catholic because as one poster said “being Catholic” is the only thing we have in common. Actually, we share other things like our faith, family and pure social activities and I know that we both love God.

“He promised me in the past that he wouldn’t share personal information and I felt that it was nobody’s business but ours.”

You don’t know what she’s even talking about: “personal information” is a pretty big data set, and “I felt that it was nobody’s business but ours” is a pretty subjective range. The fact that she didn’t include anything even vaguely resembling specifics felt like a strong indicator that there is part of the story (her part) that she doesn’t want us to know.

*Edit: But yeah, she could always just throw away her boyfriend for a first-time mistake.

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear, personal information meant issues we’ve had in the past about communication, he pretty much told her and the tone was venting which resulted in her “bad-mouthing” me. His reason was that he didn’t know who to turn to at the time. I never told him he couldn’t talk to her, just that he shouldn’t be sharing our issues. The hurt came from the lying/broken trust.

Exactly. The emotional issues aren’t any different. And yes, it does matter a lot what the OP means by “he lied to me.”

If, OTOH, they had an agreement and the private one had reason to believe the blabber was breaking it, asked about it, and the blabber said, “No, I did not tell anyone a word and besides, I was not even with Susan at all today” and so on, which was a total bald-faced lie, then THAT is a serious issue.

It does not matter a bit if the person asking, “Should I keep dating a ‘serious Catholic’ who lies to my face?” is a woman or a man. You don’t marry someone who lies to your face, not unless you truly believe it to be an isolated incident. According to Martha Stout, author of the book, “The Sociopath Next Door,” that means observing the Rule of Threes: If you catch someone in three self-serving lies, you ought drop them as a friend, business associate, whatever. Period. That isn’t just lying to you, personally, but showing a habit of breaching trust. Under no circumstances should you marry someone who cannot be trusted.

Thank you EasterJoy! What does OTOH mean? Thank you for the author suggestion I’ll have to look her up so I can know more about the Rule of Threes.

And the OP herself can take any advice with a grain of salt. Clearly not all opinions are to “dump him”, and few of those opinions were expressed in a hardcore fashion, but unless the OP wants to clarify further, my opinion remains that it doesn’t sound like a great relationship to persist with, especially given the OP herself described the trust as having been broken.

Thank you, yes I will take all of your advice with a grain of salt.

Here’s my 2 cents and attempt to answer your questions:

If you want to work on this relationship, he will need to make some changes to rebuild trust. First, he needs to really understand what he did to break your trust. Really, he might not understand that you really don’t want him sharing details of your relationship problems, or that you really don’t want him sharing those details with her, or whatever the issue is. Then he needs to be trustworthy. He needs to show you over and over that he is trustworthy. Over time, the trust will rebuild.

And, you have to forgive him.

I think you’ll know whether you want to continue in this courtship by how he deals with this frank conversation, and what happens after.

I will be praying for you to have wisdom about how to proceed, and for God to guide this conversation so you have clarity about what to do. God bless you!

MarieMargaret thank you! This is how I feel at the moment. Thank you to everyone for your advice. I really appreciate this amount of support. I’ve prayed a lot today, attended mass, rosary and I have decided to put God first in my decisions in dealing with this. So far, God has put in my heart to forgive and work on this. I know that we are not married and we are discerning in courtship. He has seemed very remorseful about lying. Like what MarieMargaret said how he deals with the conversation and what happens after will matter. I am going to trust in God’s will and again thank you for your kind words and prayers. I will be praying for all of you too.

 

[Xantippe]

Maybe the two of them aren’t quite grown up enough to engage in anything that ought to be called “courting”?

Yeah.

If he made an agreement, hid it and then lied to her face about it–goodbye. Life is too short. Find your second chance with someone else, and good luck to you both.

Yeah.

 

[Xantippe]

Hi guys thank you again for all of your advice. I truly appreciate it. I didn’t know that it would get a discussion about dumping him or not. To clarify, my boyfriend is NOT a bad guy as I have mentioned. I truly feel blessed to have him not just because he’s Catholic because as one poster said “being Catholic” is the only thing we have in common. Actually, we share other things like our faith, family and pure social activities and I know that we both love God.

**You’re double and triple counting. Both being Catholic, your faith and both loving God is all basically the same thing. That leaves faith, family and pure social activities as what you have in common. That’s something, but I would feel like it’s not a lot to have in common.

If you don’t have any other interests, find some.

**

 

[kb360]

I agree with most of the responses that you should think about ending the relationship. I’m sure your boyfriend is a nice guy (I mean, I don’t know him) and perhaps the girl he talks to is an old, close friend. In terms of being flirtatious, if she’s sending him dirty photos, then that’s definitely crossing the line. However, if they’re innocent, then one person’s flirting can be another normal conversation, so I guess it’s difficult for us to judge on an internet forum. If you are uncomfortable though, then of course you have every right to ask him to stop.

I get the impression that he’s not really into you. Maybe you have stronger feelings for him than he does for you. Maybe he’s not as serious about looking for a long term relationship, or perhaps he knows you are not the one but doesn’t want to deal with the whole break up process. If he’s stringing you on then that isn’t very nice but maybe you’re a difficult person to break up with (I’m joking, but hey I don’t know you). I feel as if you should evaluate your relationship and really be honest with yourself when you try to determine whether he likes, or loves, you.

Anyways, I’m not much of a practiced authority on other people’s affairs but I wish you all the best. Be patient and I’m sure you’ll find a great guy to marry, if that’s what you’re looking for. Cheers.

 

[EasterJoy]

OTOH=on the other hand

Based on my experience and what people post here, these would be my concerns:

1. Is this guy mature enough to “forsake all others”? Do you both mean similar things by that? Are you mature enough to cope with it when your spouse has boundaries, but not all the females he interacts with do? Is he mature enough to be a bit more self-controlled than he might like, for your sake, and vice versa?

People do not necessarily grow out of choosing the rush of being flattered by sexual flirting. Some people do not even see anything wrong with a little of that, and some married couples tolerate a limited amount of flirting. I’d say what is most important is that before you marry you get to a point where you are both comfortable with the standards the other has in that area. Obviously there is out-of-bounds both in being controlling (we do not live in a gender-separated society and have to live with that) and also with regards to self-control (we can think we are made of iron, but–NEWS FLASH!!–we are not). You aren’t going to find a guy with exactly your standards, so you’ll both be giving and taking a bit. Just as you find someone with similar attitudes about money, though, you want to find someone with similar attitudes when it comes to suitable friendships and especially suitable friendships with people with whom a sexual attraction is remotely possible.

1. *Can you agree on how to get support and counsel outside your relationship? *You both need someone to help guide you through conflicts with your spouse. What is that going to look like? There isn’t a single right answer, but you do need to come to an agreement you can both abide by comfortably. A good spousal relationship shouldn’t feel like a straitjacket, and not every guy who will make someone a great husband is going to make a good husband for you. You can’t just say, “Don’t tell anyone about our problems.” That isn’t fair, it isn’t realistic, and it is going to guarantee you both make more mistakes than you had to make. The agreement needs to be, “When you need to talk to someone about our problems, this is OK with me, obviously, while this is going to send me off the deep end, and this, well, here in the middle, we need to talk about that.”
2. Being supportive without being a doormat and enforcing boundaries without being controlling. Can you trust the person to do what they say? Can they admit it when they are wrong? Are you a safe person for them to admit mistakes to? Does that go both ways? Consider what the Holy Father had to say about confessors: The confessor, for example, is always in danger of being either too much of a rigorist or too lax. Neither is merciful, because neither of them really takes responsibility for the person. The rigorist washes his hands so that he leaves it to the commandment. The loose minister washes his hands by simply saying, ‘This is not a sin’ or something like that. In pastoral ministry we must accompany people, and we must heal their wounds By being a “safe” place to confess wrongs, I don’t mean you let him get away with everything. I mean that when he comes to you, he leaves with the resolve to be the best version of himself, rather than the feeling that you are out to remake him or that he has no need to push himself to meet your expectations. That starts with you each having expectations for yourselves that are compatible. Never marry a “fixer upper,” but choose someone you admire as he is and who admires you.
3. *NO “INVISIBLE FLAMING HOOPS”–*by that I mean you must not punish each other for violating your expectations, excepting universal expectations. No, you shouldn’t have to tell him that you do not tolerate dating two women at the same time and not telling them both you’re doing that. Yes, you should have to tell him that it hurts your feelings when he comments that someone else looks nice today but doesn’t take the trouble to notice to you that you are wearing the dress he said is his favorite, because not every woman would feel hurt by that (or even notice it). Also–keep the hoops he has to jump through to a reasonable number. Spouses are supposed to be helping to bear the load, not adding to it.
4. The Rule of Threes is a way to stay clear of people who have no scruples about deceiving others to suit their own ends. Martha Stout’s advice is meant to help people avoid true sociopaths with no conscience, but when choosing a spouse you will also want to avoid lesser brands of narcissism. She put it this way:
   When considering a new relationship of any kind, practice the rule of Threes regarding the claims and promises a person makes, and the responsibilities he or she has. One lie, one broken promise, or a single neglected responsibility may be a misunderstanding instead. Two may involve a serious mistake. But three lies says you’re dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior. Cut your losses and get out as soon as you can. Remember: that is not just lying to you. If he will lie to someone else, he will lie to you. What about white lies? If you’re willing to have the truth bent that much when he’s dealing with you, you are fine. If not, then expect what you see him do to others, he will do to you. Lies are like rodents or roaches. They thrive in darkness. If you see one, the chances are high that there are others elsewhere.

The most important thing, though, is to avoid the person who wrongs you and then somehow when you confront them about it you always wind up feeling sorry for them, instead. Do not ever put that person in a position of trust. I will post Martha Stout’s warning about the “pity play” in the next post.