Those who have overcome trials in courtship, how do you fix emotional betrayal?

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"After listening for almost twenty-five years to the stories my patients tell me about sociopaths who have invaded and injured their lives, when I am asked, “How can I tell whom not to trust?” the answer I give usually surprises people. The natural expectation is that I will describe some sinister-sounding detail of behavior or snippet of body language or threatening use of language that is the subtle giveaway. Instead, I take people aback by assuring them that the tip-off is none of these things, for none of these things is reliably present. Rather, the best clue is, of all things, the pity play.* The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness. It is, perversely, an appeal to our sympathy.**

"I first learned this when I was still a graduate student in psychology and had the opportunity to interview a court-referred patient the system had already identified as a “psychopath.” He was not violent, preferring instead to swindle people out of their money with elaborate investment scams. Intrigued by this individual and what could possibly motivate him-I was young enough to think he was a rare sort of person-I asked, “What is important to you in your life? What do you want more than anything else?”

"I thought he might say “getting money,” or “staying out of jail,” which were the activities to which he devoted most of his time. Instead, without a moment’s hesitation, he replied, "Oh, that’s easy. What I like better than anything else is when people feel sorry for me. The thing I really want more than anything else out of life is people’s pity."

"I was astonished, and more than a little put off. I think I would have liked him better if he had said “staying out of jail,” or even “getting money.” Also, I was mystified. Why would this man-why would anyone wish to be pitied, let alone wish to be pitied above all other ambitions? I could not imagine. But now, after twenty-five years of listening to victims, I realize there is an excellent reason for the sociopathic fondness for pity. As obvious as the nose on one’s face, and just as difficult to see without the help of a mirror, the explanation is that good people will let pathetic individuals get by with murder, so to speak, and therefore any sociopath wishing to continue with his game, whatever it happens to be, should play repeatedly for none other than pity.

"**More than admiration --more even than fear–pity from good people is carte blanche. **When we pity, we are, at least for the moment, defenseless, and like so many of the other essentially positive human characteristics that bind us together in groups-social and professional roles, sexual bonds, regard for the compassionate and the creative, respect for our leaders-our emotional vulnerability when we pity is used against us by those who have no conscience. Most of us would agree that giving special dispensation to someone who is incapable of feeling guilt is a bad idea, but often, when an individual presents himself as pathetic, we do so nonetheless.

"Pity and sympathy are forces for good when they are reactions to deserving people who have fallen on misfortune. But when these sentiments are wrested out of us by the undeserving, by people whose behavior is consistently antisocial, this is a sure sign that something is wrong, a potentially useful danger signal that we often overlook. **Perhaps the most easily recognized example is the battered wife whose sociopathic husband beats her routinely and then sits at the kitchen table, head in his hands, moaning that he cannot control himself and that he is a poor wretch whom she must find it in her heart to forgive. **There are countless other examples, a seemingly endless variety, some even more flagrant than the violent spouse and some almost subliminal. And for those of us who do have conscience, such situations, no matter how brazen, seem to present us emotionally with a kind of embedded figure puzzle, in which the background design (the appeal for pity) continually overcomes our perceptions of the more important embedded picture (the antisocial behavior).

"In long retrospect, sociopathic appeals for pity are preposterous and chilling.*

Stout, Martha. (2005). The Sociopath Next Door : the ruthless versus the rest of us (1st ed.). New York: Broadway Books.

This is what we see over and over again here: A sociopath goes out looking for a spouse who will fall for the pity play every time, and where does he find lush and beautiful picking? In a Catholic church! Always remember what Pope Francis had to say about confessors, the Church’s professional dispensers of mercy. Mercy is love, which is to say mercy concerns itself with bringing the sinner to sanctity. Mercy does not give in to a sinner who begs to remain in sin any more than it would give in to a child who begs to avoid the pain of the treatment that will save his life. Mercy sees the big picture. When someone plays for pity in order to avoid amending his or her life, don’t give it to them. Remain kind, but whatever you do, don’t let them play the pity card on you. If that is their whole deck, back away and stay off their radar.
 
So now we’re up to “OP might be immature but all the more reason she should kick him to the curb and do better next time.”

So if he’s immature she should dump him…and also if she’s the immature one??

Team pink (I like that one!) is not doing itself any favors tonight.

I’ve made my point. Perhaps we ought ruminate about how quickly we tell others to dump someone without all the facts.
(Bolding Mine) YES!!!

You seem to think that the OP’s boyfriend is entitled to be in a relationship with her until he does something that is completely over the line that he “deserves” to be dumped for. That’s not how dating should work.

If the person you are with is not mature, yes, you should break up. If you are too immature for a relationship yourself, yes, you should break up. If you are a wonderful, mature, loving person and your SO is a wonderful, mature, loving person but you just aren’t compatible, don’t share the same values, or want different things in life, you should break up.

We aren’t advising the OP to break up with her boyfriend to punish him. We are advising it because it seems like something is wrong. Either her boyfriend has serious boundary issues, she isn’t mature enough to deal with opposite-sex friends, they aren’t compatible in terms of what they think the boundaries of fidelity should be, or some combination of the above. In that case, they are just dating, and they need to move on and find people that they are a better fit with.

Breakups aren’t fun, but they aren’t punitive either.
 
So, is your boyfriend likely to be a sociopath? No. Only 4-5% of Americans are sociopaths. That is enough to warrant serious concern, because it is essentially certain that we know someone without a conscience, but that doesn’t mean that everyone who lies is a sociopath. Consider this piece, which claims that over half of Americans are habitual fibbers:

…*According to a 2002 study conducted by the University of Massachusetts, **60% of adults can’t have a ten minute conversation without lying at least once. **But even that number makes it sound better than it really is; those people in the study who did lie actually told an average of 3 lies during their brief chat. And I know you’re sitting there right now insisting you would be part of the 40% that didn’t lie. That’s what the liars in the study thought, too. When they watched the taped conversations back, they were shocked at how many fibs they had told.

We lie to everyone. Our parents get the worst of it, according to The Day America Told the Truth, with 86% of us lying to them regularly, followed by friends (75%), siblings (73%), and spouses (69%). But in general we lie about things that aren’t important, little things that we think will make us look better or more likeable*…
mentalfloss.com/article/30609/60-people-cant-go-10-minutes-without-lying

So, here’s your homework, OP:
  1. Ask yourself whether your boyfriend has the desire and the capacity to stay within the boundaries that would allow you to be comfortable letting him out of your sight. That may be no judgment on him! You may be very insecure. Don’t try to remake him, though. If you can’t feel comfortable about how he conducts himself when you’re not there to police him, then let him be free to find someone whose boundaries won’t be an albatross around his neck. Whether that someone will deserve your congratulations or your pity is not your concern.
  2. If you feel he lies to you, ask yourself about the nature of those lies. Is he roughly as honest as you are? (Really listen to yourself for one day. The answer may surprise you!) Does he use lying as a way to get out of promises? Based on his track record with you, can you depend on him to do what he says? Can you depend on him to come to you when he has failed, so the problem that results can be solved as quickly as possible? When he apologizes for being less than truthful, does the onus land on him, or does he try to divert the blame for his dishonesty to others? What evidence do you have that he has integrity when integrity is hard? Yes, we all fail…but does he succeed most of the time? Would you say his other friends find him trustworthy, for instance? Does he succeed when he might think you wouldn’t know better? In other words: on what basis do you trust him?
  3. Again, this is not to be judgmental so much as to ask yourself about compatibility: Is his venting to his friends about you substantially different than your venting about him? Does he have a high esteem for you? Do the two of you have each other’s backs? Fidelity isn’t just about staying out of sexual situations with the wrong people. It is also about emotional loyalty. You’ll want to find someone whose values are similar to yours on that front, too.
It is not judgmental to break up with someone that you would have to remake in order to find satisfactory as a spouse. You will have to negotiate boundaries with him and he with you, but you have no right to try to remake him. If you did, you probably couldn’t do it. You have to accept that, and ask yourself: Is his “worst” the sort of “worst” that I could live with for life? If not, let him find someone who would have a different and more enthusiastic answer.
 
(Bolding Mine) YES!!!

You seem to think that the OP’s boyfriend is entitled to be in a relationship with her until he does something that is completely over the line that he “deserves” to be dumped for. That’s not how dating should work.

If the person you are with is not mature, yes, you should break up. If you are too immature for a relationship yourself, yes, you should break up. If you are a wonderful, mature, loving person and your SO is a wonderful, mature, loving person but you just aren’t compatible, don’t share the same values, or want different things in life, you should break up.

We aren’t advising the OP to break up with her boyfriend to punish him. We are advising it because it seems like something is wrong. Either her boyfriend has serious boundary issues, she isn’t mature enough to deal with opposite-sex friends, they aren’t compatible in terms of what they think the boundaries of fidelity should be, or some combination of the above. In that case, they are just dating, and they need to move on and find people that they are a better fit with.

Breakups aren’t fun, but they aren’t punitive either.
Yes.
 
Everybody is falling all over themselves walking back reasons for why OP should break up. It started out as she should kick him to the curb because he was a liar and immature; now it’s for other reasons.

All of you screaming “yes!” to one another doesn’t change the fact that most of you were awfully harsh to the OP’s boyfriend…

…particularly since OP seems to have now acknowledged that the “lying” was more like “I didn’t think he was going to tell anyone about (X).” That’s not lying.

I find it interesting that now people want to know if I’m married. Why? Would that render my points invalid?

I’m happily married for more than a dozen years to a lady with more brains than any… Person named Polarguy.

I also find it interesting that some people are also admitting that they will give advice regardless of “his side of the story.” I guess facts don’t matter to some people. The jungle of illogic around here would be entertaining if it wasn’t so clearly palpable that some people just want team pink to win.
 
This board is FILLED with women who gripe that they can’t meet a decent catholic man; all men want is sex, etc. OP’s boyfriend is Catholic; appears reasonably devout; and prays with his girlfriend, and everybody here tells her to dump him - despite the fact that OP clearly has feelings for him.

A lot of you folks are not being objective here.
 
Everybody is falling all over themselves walking back reasons for why OP should break up. It started out as she should kick him to the curb because he was a liar and immature; now it’s for other reasons.

All of you screaming “yes!” to one another doesn’t change the fact that most of you were awfully harsh to the OP’s boyfriend…

…particularly since OP seems to have now acknowledged that the “lying” was more like “I didn’t think he was going to tell anyone about (X).” That’s not lying.

I find it interesting that now people want to know if I’m married. Why? Would that render my points invalid?

I’m happily married for more than a dozen years to a lady with more brains than any… Person named Polarguy.

I also find it interesting that some people are also admitting that they will give advice regardless of “his side of the story.” I guess facts don’t matter to some people. The jungle of illogic around here would be entertaining if it wasn’t so clearly palpable that some people just want team pink to win.
Do you complain about your marital problems to women who have the hots for you? Does your wife sniffle about your unkindness to her on the shoulders of some hunky guy who is pining for her?

I sincerely hope not.
 
This board is FILLED with women who gripe that they can’t meet a decent catholic man; all men want is sex, etc. OP’s boyfriend is Catholic; appears reasonably devout; and prays with his girlfriend, and everybody here tells her to dump him - despite the fact that OP clearly has feelings for him.

A lot of you folks are not being objective here.
One needs more in a husband than him being a practicing Catholic and able to fog a mirror.
 
Everybody is falling all over themselves walking back reasons for why OP should break up. It started out as she should kick him to the curb because he was a liar and immature; now it’s for other reasons.

I think the only person who brought up other reasons was EJ.

All of you screaming “yes!” to one another doesn’t change the fact that most of you were awfully harsh to the OP’s boyfriend…

…particularly since OP seems to have now acknowledged that the “lying” was more like “I didn’t think he was going to tell anyone about (X).” That’s not lying.

Read the OP. He told her that he wouldn’t share personal stuff like that and he did. That’s lying.

I find it interesting that now people want to know if I’m married. Why? Would that render my points invalid?

I’m happily married for more than a dozen years to a lady with more brains than any… Person named Polarguy.

I also find it interesting that some people are also admitting that they will give advice regardless of “his side of the story.” I guess facts don’t matter to some people.

If a relationship isn’t working, it doesn’t really matter what other side there is. If he came here and said “We’ve never flirted, I didn’t share those things, and we’re childhood friends”, it wouldn’t change the fact that the OP seems ill-equipped to date someone who is that close to other women. There is nothing wrong with that. Again, a breakup isn’t a punishment. It’s just cutting ties so that a more compatible relationship can be found. Even if the guy isn’t wrong, he isn’t entitled to a relationship with anyone.

The jungle of illogic around here would be entertaining if it wasn’t so clearly palpable that some people just want team pink to win.

Because women totally win when a romantic relationship breaks up. We hate relationships, and we certainly don’t want them to lead to marriage. :rolleyes:
 
BEL said:

“If a relationship isn’t working, it doesn’t really matter what other side there is. If he came here and said “We’ve never flirted, I didn’t share those things, and we’re childhood friends”, it wouldn’t change the fact that the OP seems ill-equipped to date someone who is that close to other women. There is nothing wrong with that. Again, a breakup isn’t a punishment. It’s just cutting ties so that a more compatible relationship can be found. Even if the guy isn’t wrong, he isn’t entitled to a relationship with anyone.”

Yes.

Why make this a gender war issue? This couple sounds really young and like they’re rushing to find the first warm Catholic body of the opposite sex that they can.

That’s just not good enough for a happy marriage, especially these days.
 
My wife and I did one year long distance before we were married. We had an agreement that still stands to this day 13 years and 5 kids later. If either of us were uncomfortable with a situation, we told the other, the other, then did not do it. This was anything, it engages incredible trust in someone to give them veto rights over your freedom. You find out right away if the other person is either controlling or sneaky.
My wife and I did the long-distance thing for about five years before she moved to my area–long distance relationships can be very tough. There haven’t been too many situations where either one of us has forbidden the other to see someone or hang out with a friend, but there was one particular incident: I had a falling out with a mutual friend, and she still wanted to hang out with him. It really bothered me, but I let it happen anyway. She didn’t want to give up her friendship with her friend just because my friendship with the same friend was on the rocks. In the end, being permissive and trusting her turned out to be the right decision, but it was difficult to endure at the time.

Every relationship is unique. It sounds like the OP is sorting through her relationship issues in her own way, which is good.
 
…Why make this a gender war issue? This couple sounds really young and like they’re rushing to find the first warm Catholic body of the opposite sex that they can…
Now, now. That is a bit rash. They have different expectations of themselves within courtship, and they are working out whether or not the expectations are compatible. The OP does not have experience with this particular problem, but she may have easily had other boyfriends, and broken up with them. Likewise, the fellow she is dating may have a background where objection to using female friends for counsel hasn’t been a problem–until now.

People don’t rush to break up for good reason. Still, those of us who are older know too many who went ahead with marriage because the couple was overly-reserved about breaking up, having “invested so much” in a courtship lengthy enough to lead to the altar. When something intolerable makes more than a brief appearance, it is rarely a good idea to force the other person from that course. Either they realize it is an issue and find a middle ground and the relationship grows more stable (being on a greater foundation of mutual agreement) or the issue becomes a running problem that is far more likely to get worse than to get better.

Good relationships do not have one drama after another, nor one drama that goes on and on and on. Some couples find common ground more loudly than others, but they would self-report that they agree on the big stuff. Yes, some marriages survive a drama that just won’t go away, but anyone who can see that coming and chooses it needs to have their head examined.
 
Yes.

I’m afraid, though, that a lot of people find that set-up “interesting.”
Some people have lots of dramas because they do not understand how to avoid having dramas. It is not as if those are usually fun. What comes as news is that one can learn how to avoid having them. It doesn’t just take self-control or character. It takes some skills that can be learned.

One of those skills is knowing your boundaries and knowing how to say, “No. That is a real boundary. I told you it was there, I meant it, you agreed to it, and I won’t tolerate having it crossed. I especially won’t tolerate having it crossed behind my back. If it needed to be re-negotiated, you needed to say so. Otherwise, do what you say you’ll do when you say you’ll do it.”
 
Everybody is falling all over themselves walking back reasons for why OP should break up. It started out as she should kick him to the curb because he was a liar and immature; now it’s for other reasons.

All of you screaming “yes!” to one another doesn’t change the fact that most of you were awfully harsh to the OP’s boyfriend…

…particularly since OP seems to have now acknowledged that the “lying” was more like “I didn’t think he was going to tell anyone about (X).” That’s not lying.

I find it interesting that now people want to know if I’m married. Why? Would that render my points invalid?

I’m happily married for more than a dozen years to a lady with more brains than any… Person named Polarguy.

I also find it interesting that some people are also admitting that they will give advice regardless of “his side of the story.” I guess facts don’t matter to some people. The jungle of illogic around here would be entertaining if it wasn’t so clearly palpable that some people just want team pink to win.
Team blue here, just like other team blue who posted earlier who disagreed with you as well. I am also the one whom you have mentioned several times who said “kick him to the curb.” It appears that it is you who has the gender bias here, sticking up for the bros huh? That is all fine and dandy, but realize that while you are accusing others (sexistly) of being over emotional and sticking to their own kind, you are probably winning in those two categories. ;)😉 Why are you so riled up about it?

Odd.
 
Hoosier, you are committing the age-old reasoning fallacy paraphrased as “accusing someone of doing the same things you’re guilty of doing.”

I didn’t call anyone names (like “sexist”); nor start demanding to know if others were married, like I was asked. If they (or you) don’t like getting called out for doing those things, or for getting smarmy, or for not caring about facts…then don’t do those things, and I promise I won’t call you out for them.

I notice, however, that this thread turned 180 degrees around about OP and her boyfriend after last night’s “Thursday night men-bashing club” got a little pushback, and now the club members – regardless of gender – are all getting defensive because they don’t know what to say, so they’ll just get mad at Polarguy for crashing their party…
 
Hoosier, you are committing the age-old reasoning fallacy paraphrased as “accusing someone of doing the same things you’re guilty of doing.”

I didn’t call anyone names (like “sexist”); nor start demanding to know if others were married, like I was asked. If they (or you) don’t like getting called out for doing those things, or for getting smarmy, or for not caring about facts…then don’t do those things, and I promise I won’t call you out for them.

I notice, however, that this thread turned 180 degrees around about OP and her boyfriend after last night’s “Thursday night men-bashing club” got a little pushback, and now the club members – regardless of gender – are all getting defensive because they don’t know what to say, so they’ll just get mad at Polarguy for crashing their party…
Soooo, “Thursday night men-bashing club” isn’t name-calling? Because it totally is.

It really isn’t necessary for everybody to marry every single one of their girlfriends or boyfriends. The default on whether or not to pursue a romantic prospect should be “no,” not yes.
 
Hoosier, you are committing the age-old reasoning fallacy paraphrased as “accusing someone of doing the same things you’re guilty of doing.”

I didn’t call anyone names (like “sexist”); nor start demanding to know if others were married, like I was asked. If they (or you) don’t like getting called out for doing those things, or for getting smarmy, or for not caring about facts…then don’t do those things, and I promise I won’t call you out for them.

I notice, however, that this thread turned 180 degrees around about OP and her boyfriend after last night’s “Thursday night men-bashing club” got a little pushback, and now the club members – regardless of gender – are all getting defensive because they don’t know what to say, so they’ll just get mad at Polarguy for crashing their party…
Whatever this is, it is not a party. It is also not a high school debate, where there are sides chosen, points awarded for hits and misses, and winners and losers declared at the end.

People come to this forum and disclose as much as they are inclined to disclose about a problem they wonder about, answer the questions they are inclined to ask in order to clarify their questions, and get all the free advice they are inclined to take.

If you disagree with the free advice other people are giving, it is sufficient to propose alternative solutions. It is also fine to question the conclusions other people are reaching, especially when you can point out where unexamined assumptions or inexplicable leaps in logic seem to have been used to reach those conclusions. That can be very useful in clarifying what has been written! It is unnecessary, however, to question motives or make the discussion into a personal quarrel or a competition. That can derail the whole thread from its proposed question very quickly, and rarely with good results.
 
Hoosier, you are committing the age-old reasoning fallacy paraphrased as “accusing someone of doing the same things you’re guilty of doing.”

I didn’t call anyone names (like “sexist”); nor start demanding to know if others were married, like I was asked. If they (or you) don’t like getting called out for doing those things, or for getting smarmy, or for not caring about facts…then don’t do those things, and I promise I won’t call you out for them.

I notice, however, that this thread turned 180 degrees around about OP and her boyfriend after last night’s “Thursday night men-bashing club” got a little pushback, and now the club members – regardless of gender – are all getting defensive because they don’t know what to say, so they’ll just get mad at Polarguy for crashing their party…
Hope everything works out for you, man. Good luck.
 
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