Thought process of non Christians who use the New Testament

[IgnatianPhilo]

Dear IgnatianPhilo - It is expected you would have this reaction, but what a Baha’i believes will not go away. Much like the Christian Faith has not Gone away for the Jews and the Muslim Faith has not gone away for the Christians and the Bahai Faith will not go away for the Muslims.

It should be considered we Love Christ with all our Heart and Souls and every time a Christian attempts to shed Christ in a disrespectful light is very upsetting. You will have to consider all the inferences to a diminished Christ are yours and not a Baha’is view.

We will continue to offer the Baha’i view if Eric allows is to do so. What I can safely say as the years roll on is that we as Bahai’s will only do it to foster an understanding of God that is Inclusive of all.

It is great you are a Lover of Christ and God

Regards Tony

You’re allowed to believe untrue things, though I wish you would engage on the subject when you bring it up. Bahais simply bring it up every thread that your prophet is the comforter and then when refuted don’t answer the points, then you bring it up in another thread only for it to be refuted again, so on and so forth.

As for your comment on a diminished Christ I have no idea what you are talking about. I would ask you this however, you use the new testament and you interpret it and you believe your interpretation is correct. When did Christians corrupt their interpretation of the New testament that now the Bahai view is the only real view? in my mind, in my knowledge it seems we had it wrong since Saint Paul and the ante Nicene fathers because none of them explained bahai doctrine.

 

[TonyBS]

What truth, Servant? What other truth, other than the truth that is given to the Church, that the Church needs to know? Wouldn’t that would be superfluous?

Remember, Jesus warned us about false prophets? They would come in all shapes and sizes but they do not necessarily bring the truth.

So what truth?

The False Prophet approach has been overused, it should be balanced with the passages that tell you how to know a True Prophet.

If there was to be no True Prophet after Christ, there would have to be no warning about False and No advice how to treat a True Prophet.

Christianity has missed Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

The Bible supports these Revelations.

But one must want to find it

God bless and regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The False Prophet approach has been overused, it should be balanced with the passages that tell you how to know a True Prophet.

If there was to be no True Prophet after Christ, there would have to be no warning about False and No advice how to treat a True Prophet.

y

That doesn’t follow.

 

[TonyBS]

You’re allowed to believe untrue things, though I wish you would engage on the subject when you bring it up. Bahais simply bring it up every thread that your prophet is the comforter and then when refuted don’t answer the points, then you bring it up in another thread only for it to be refuted again, so on and so forth.

As for your comment on a diminished Christ I have no idea what you are talking about. I would ask you this however, you use the new testament and you interpret it and you believe your interpretation is correct. When did Christians corrupt their interpretation of the New testament that now the Bahai view is the only real view? in my mind, in my knowledge it seems we had it wrong since Saint Paul and the ante Nicene fathers because none of them explained bahai doctrine.

To offer full answers here would see ones account cut off

The answers are available and so we only offer the alternate view.

You will have to consider what you offer other peoples views of Christ are. We did not post those rhoughts and do not agree with your view.

When did Christianity go wrong. That would be the breaking of Gods Covernant and not accepting Muhammad and His Message. Muhammad in the Koran showed the required Path.

In the end we just have to let self go and consider we did get it all wrong

These are great challenges, but in the long run one has to Love God and Mankind.

As long as we discuss these issues and this remains our Goal, God will bless our verbal exchanges

Regards Tony

 

[Della]

This is a question that always needed clarification for me and I hope for others too. Why do non-Christians insist on the New Testament (in this day and age of the internet there are claimants all over) and then say Jesus is not God?

Yet, why is Jesus so important to them?

Thoughts? Comments?

MJ

Because, even though Scripture is the inspired word of God, it can’t convince anyone of the truths of the Gospel–only the Holy Spirit can do that, for he is the one who makes Scripture alive to those who are seeking for the truth. If someone does not want/will to believe, no power in heaven or on earth can make him believe. Also, the NT was not written to be the end-all and be-all of theological truth. That authority was given by Christ to the Church in the persons of the Apostles (and their successors). It was and is the Church that decides matters of faith and morals, not anyone’s interpretation of the Bible.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

To offer full answers here would see ones account cut off

The answers are available and so we only offer the alternate view.

You will have to consider what you offer other peoples views of Christ are. We did not post those rhoughts and do not agree with your view.

When did Christianity go wrong. That would be the breaking of Gods Covernant and not accepting Muhammad and His Message. Muhammad in the Koran showed the required Path.

In the end we just have to let self go and consider we did get it all wrong

These are great challenges, but in the long run one has to Love God and Mankind.

As long as we discuss these issues and this remains our Goal, God will bless our verbal exchanges

Regards Tony

I have considered them and they are false. Your prophet is not the comforter, the Holy Spirit is and he came to the apostles and has remained with the church since that time. If we have been without the comforter for two thousand years, without the Spirit of truth, Jesus lied to his apostles. Jesus promised the apostles that the comforter would guide them and then subsequently the church, not a group of Muslims 1900 years later.

Also, up until the time of Muhammad was the Church correctly following God? I don’t think you can maintain that if you read Church history when entirely dissagrees with the Bahai religion. Let me ask you this instead. If the church got it wrong as soon as Jesus dissapeared, as the scripture and early fathers would seem to indicate (if bahai is true), what are the implications for your own faith?

 

[TonyBS]

Because, even though Scripture is the inspired word of God, it can’t convince anyone of the truths of the Gospel–only the Holy Spirit can do that, for he is the one who makes Scripture alive to those who are seeking for the truth. If someone does not want/will to believe, no power in heaven or on earth can make him believe. Also, the NT was not written to be the end-all and be-all of theological truth. That authority was given by Christ to the Church in the persons of the Apostles (and their successors). It was and is the Church that decides matters of faith and morals, not anyone’s interpretation of the Bible.

This is supported in the Baha’i Writings “If someone does not want/will to believe, no power in heaven or on earth can make him believe”.

“O maid-servant of God! Verily thy Lord lighteth the lamp of love in the heart of whomsoever He chooseth. This is indeed the great happiness”. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá v2, p. 308)

It then also must be considered, that the thought Processes of people outside the Christian Faith may have merit to be considered.

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

I have considered them and they are false. Your prophet is not the comforter, the Holy Spirit is and he came to the apostles and has remained with the church since that time. If we have been without the comforter for two thousand years, without the Spirit of truth, Jesus lied to his apostles. Jesus promised the apostles that the comforter would guide them and then subsequently the church, not a group of Muslims 1900 years later.

Also, up until the time of Muhammad was the Church correctly following God? I don’t think you can maintain that if you read Church history when entirely dissagrees with the Bahai religion. Let me ask you this instead. If the church got it wrong as soon as Jesus dissapeared, as the scripture and early fathers would seem to indicate (if bahai is true), what are the implications for your own faith?

The implications for all Faiths is “God is One” and that it is God that guides us.

It would support scripture that tells us, low and behold, man gets it wrong!

That only in complete Humility is the Love of God and the Unity of Mankind acceptable.

Wonderful is it not! God has blessed us and showers Hos Blessings upon us all.

Regards Tony

 

[Della]

This is supported in the Baha’i Writings “If someone does not want/will to believe, no power in heaven or on earth can make him believe”.

“O maid-servant of God! Verily thy Lord lighteth the lamp of love in the heart of whomsoever He chooseth. This is indeed the great happiness”. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá v2, p. 308)

It then also must be considered, that the thought Processes of people outside the Christian Faith may have merit to be considered.

Regards Tony

Truth is not a possession of the Church–the Church merely presents the truth, as she has received it from Jesus Christ. The Gospel truth–that Christ , losing nothing of his divinity, became man, lived among us, taught us, established his Church to preach, teach, and confer his sacraments, died for our redemption, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven are not truths that can be known without hearing about them. This is the duty and joy of the Church–to announce these truths for the salvation of all persons who cooperate with the grace God gives them. That is the Church’s teaching–the Gospel. It only subsists within the Church. God is capable and indeed works outside the Church, but the Church is the ordinary and main way we obtain God’s saving grace. No other religion believes this, upholds this. Truth is not relative–it is eternal. It has been manifested in Christ Jesus, true God and true man, and in no other.

 

[TonyBS]

Truth is not a possession of the Church–the Church merely presents the truth, as she has received it from Jesus Christ. The Gospel truth–that Christ , losing nothing of his divinity, became man, lived among us, taught us, established his Church to preach, teach, and confer his sacraments, died for our redemption, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven are not truths that can be known without hearing about them. This is the duty and joy of the Church–to announce these truths for the salvation of all persons who cooperate with the grace God gives them. That is the Church’s teaching–the Gospel. It only subsists within the Church. God is capable and indeed works outside the Church, but the Church is the ordinary and main way we obtain God’s saving grace. No other religion believes this, upholds this. Truth is not relative–it is eternal. It has been manifested in Christ Jesus, true God and true man, and in no other.

This is a statement that is unaware of what others believe

One has to consider why we make Gods Truth Exclusive in a box of set beliefs, as you have said truth is eternal.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Della]

This is a statement that is unaware of what others believe

No, it isn’t. One can be fully aware of what others believe and also be fully aware that not all they believe is the truth.

One has to consider why we make Gods Truth Exclusive in a box of set beliefs, as you have said truth is eternal.

God Bless and Regards Tony

God chose to reveal himself to us in his Son. That’s not a “box set of beliefs” that’s God’s revelation to man–his last revelation to man. Jesus proved himself to be the Christ by his life, death and resurrection. We need no further revelations than what he taught us and what he did for us.

 

[TonyBS]

No, it isn’t. One can be fully aware of what others believe and also be fully aware that not all they believe is the truth.

Agreed some what At the same time only God knows our Hearts, so can not fully know each other

God chose to reveal himself to us in his Son. That’s not a “box set of beliefs” that’s God’s revelation to man–his last revelation to man. Jesus proved himself to be the Christ by his life, death and resurrection. We need no further revelations than what he taught us and what he did for us.

That just put it in a Box

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

What truth, Servant? What other truth, other than the truth that is given to the Church, that the Church needs to know?

The truth about how we can, using the power of the Holy Spirit, unite the human race.

.

 

[MartinJordan]

God bless you Reuben

I have read The Bible front to back also refer to it often and passages from the Bible are quoted at Baha’i Devotional Meetings

Which Bible? The 66 book one? The 73 book one, The 74 book one. Or the 81 Book one?

How do you the Bible is true also? And that reading a book is all you need?

I have a friend who is a Sai Baba devotee who also said he read the “Bible” so he says “Back to front” Twice!

Yet tells me “not to eat meat but only vegetables”. “Eating Fish gives you bad thoughts”. “If you are Christian, be a good Christian” , “Sai Baba will return to the earth and will be found as a 12 year old boy teaching in the Temple”?

Just makes no sense to me nor understand the thought process. Why bother reading a book not put together by your own Faith.And then come up with unusual commandments, which was never taught by the authority that gave it.

I actually first read it to try to prove to my mother that Christ was not a God of a Trinity, But in the end after I compiled 4 pages of biblical quotes to prove this I realised it was pointless. If it was that obvious, then all could see this if they so wished. It is God that guides our hearts how God so chooses.

“It is God that guides our hearts how God chooses”? This seems to be Unitarian Universalists talk. Check them out.

I did read the Whole chapter before I posted the quote. The meaning is clearer when one has read the Baha’i Writings, much the same that The Old Testament has meaning found from the New Testament.

Now this is the thought process matter that I question. The meaning is only clear by the Authority that put it together. It is unrealistic to believe outside of the Authority from another Faith can make it clearer when Back in 381 A.D. the Council of Constantinople, clarified the Nicene Creed. (not by reading the Bible alone but convening together as a community to clarify matters).

This is the confusion, but it is also more than this.

Sure. It’s by following the Authority that gave the Scriptures.

A Baha’i has come to understand that Baha’u’llah who’s name in English means “Glory of God” or “Glory of the Lord” has come in the “Station” of the “Father”.

Thus when we read Biblical Passages we understand these to be references to the Revelation of Baha’u’llah and that this Revelation is from the Father, the Spirit of Truth.

This is why the Baha’is will have a different “Frame of Reference” when talking about the Bible, but as you can see our Love of it is no less!

Regards Tony

Love the Bible by Loving the Church that gave it.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

The truth about how we can, using the power of the Holy Spirit, unite the human race.

.

The power of the Holy Spirit is given by the Father and the Son. The Will of God not man’s.

One man says “you can eat meat” the other “you shouldn’t eat meat”, One man says there is no God, other man says there is. One man says “worship on Sunday” other “Saturday” and yet another “Friday”. One man says “I pray 5 times a day”, other man says “everytime I work it is a prayer”, yet another will say “pray once a week is enough” . The other “why should I pray, I am still poor and it never works”.

Tell them Jesus is the Son in the Trinity, of Three Persons. Then other says "that’s three Gods, how could you!?!!

Lots of people, different attitudes and then we can unite these people?

Or trust the Holy Spirit as the Church said who He is. That’s a much better proposition. Come inside the Ark, where it is safe

Once Noah, his family, and all the animals are safely in the ark, Genesis 7:16 records this touching detail about who closed the door to the ark: “Then the Lord shut him.” (The Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, adds at the end of the verse: “from the outside.”) Church Fathers saw this as an example of God’s tender care for men. “Notice in this place too the considerateness in the expression … to teach us that he had ensured the good man’s complete safety,” - St. John Chrysostom 349 – 407 A,D,] says in his homilies on Genesis (Early Christian Commentaries on Scripture, InterVarsity Press).

MJ

 

[TonyBS]

lots of people, different attitudes and then we can unite these people?MJ

Yes it is already so

Key One and Only God

Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

Yes it is already so

Key One and Only God

Regards Tony

Which key? St. Peter’s?

MJ

 

[fhansen]

This is a question that always needed clarification for me and I hope for others too. Why do non-Christians insist on the New Testament (in this day and age of the internet there are claimants all over) and then say Jesus is not God?

Yet, why is Jesus so important to them?

Thoughts? Comments?

MJ

They still believe that Jesus is the way to the Father. And Scripture can be unclear or ambiguous at times; it was never meant to be a catechism and people often argue opposing viewpoints with it quite plausibly. In the end they only prove the doctrine of Sola Scriptura to be false.

 

[Reuben_J]

The truth about how we can, using the power of the Holy Spirit, unite the human race.

.

The short of it, there is no such truth. And therefore you are against the truth of God itself.

From the beginning there is division among humans once God decided to give them free will. The lack of unity, ironically, enforced by God Himself, in the episode of the Tower of Babel. Not that God want man to disunite, but that’s his nature.

The thing God did was to give salvation by sending His own Son, with a condition that only those who believe will obtain that salvation .

The sending of the Holy Spirit is so that man would be helped in living out a life that requires him to be saved thus acknowledging its difficulty due to man’s fallen nature. Those choose to believe and thus become believers, will be united by the power of the Holy Spirit.

So be careful when you suggest something because it may not what it is to be.

 

[Servant19]

The power of the Holy Spirit is given by the Father and the Son. The Will of God not man’s.

One man says “you can eat meat” the other “you shouldn’t eat meat”, One man says there is no God, other man says there is. One man says “worship on Sunday” other “Saturday” and yet another “Friday”. One man says “I pray 5 times a day”, other man says “everytime I work it is a prayer”, yet another will say “pray once a week is enough” . The other “why should I pray, I am still poor and it never works”.

Tell them Jesus is the Son in the Trinity, of Three Persons. Then other says "that’s three Gods, how could you!?!!

Lots of people, different attitudes and then we can unite these people?

Or trust the Holy Spirit as the Church said who He is. That’s a much better proposition. Come inside the Ark, where it is safe

Once Noah, his family, and all the animals are safely in the ark, Genesis 7:16 records this touching detail about who closed the door to the ark: “Then the Lord shut him.” (The Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, adds at the end of the verse: “from the outside.”) Church Fathers saw this as an example of God’s tender care for men. “Notice in this place too the considerateness in the expression … to teach us that he had ensured the good man’s complete safety,” - St. John Chrysostom 349 – 407 A,D,] says in his homilies on Genesis (Early Christian Commentaries on Scripture, InterVarsity Press).

MJ

This post proves that there is more Truth needed to be revealed and you, as a member of the Church cannot answer the questions you pose in your own post

There is so much more Truth that could not be revealed, and those clinging to what Jesus said 2000 years ago and reviling what He has spoken today are in effect hindering His Will on earth…

.