Thoughts for an exasperated Catholic?! Swine flu/Bishops right? [edited]

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I would disagree with your repeated statements regarding swine flu. My brother caught it and was quarantined and very ill for a week. Prior to his diagnosis, he spent a day with my son, who then traveled to Minnesota and my son fell ill there with it too. According to the medical staff at the base my brother is posted on, by the end of this month 1 in 4 in our county will have it. This does not come from the media, it came from a medical community bracing for an onslaught.

Our Bishop requested a temporary stoppage of shaking hands during the passing of the peace and also of receiving on the tongue. This has now been lifted.
Tomorrow we will be burrying the third member of our parish to die with this flu in the past three months. So I don’t think it’s to be taken lightly. Charity and justice requrie that we take care not to pass it on to our ministers or to our family members, if we can take certain measures.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Tomorrow we will be burrying the third member of our parish to die with this flu in the past three months. So I don’t think it’s to be taken lightly. Charity and justice requrie that we take care not to pass it on to our ministers or to our family members, if we can take certain measures.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Agreed, and my deepest sympathies to your parish. Our area has lost precious souls as well, but none from our parish that I am aware of.
 
I agree that obedience and respect to a Bishop are far more important than this particular “right”.

Obedience is only exempted in matters of faith (doctrine - not personal piety) or morals.

Lux
But obedience to the Holy See is required in all matters of both Faith and Governance of the Church
Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.
Pastor Aeternus - Vatican I

So no bishop can override Redemptoris Sacramentum ( which the OP quoted).

So receiving on the tounge is not disobedience, especially since the bishop wisely did not attempt to prohibit the universal norm. Either way of recieving is in full obedience with the Church and one cannot be set against the other.
 
And how would one make a judgement on the biological state of a particular recepient?

For example, I have recieved the vaccinee for H1N1 ( and the seasonal flu too), so I can neither transmit the disease, or be in danger from it.

So would such an attempt at limiting my reception be warranted? Am I to feel obligated not to recieve on the tounge if the purpose to to not place myself or another in danger from the flu?
 
And how would one make a judgement on the biological state of a particular recepient?

For example, I have recieved the vaccinee for H1N1 ( and the seasonal flu too), so I can neither transmit the disease, or be in danger from it.
That’s not necessarily true. If you received the vaccine and it worked properly, then you are immune to the version of the virus that you were injected with. If the virus mutates over the winter then you may not be immune to the mutation.

, while another causes lung hemorrhaging.Some mutations are vaccine- and antiviral-resistant
 
The Holy See addressed this issue back in July 2009:
Prot. N. 655/09/L
Rome, 24 July 2009
This Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments wishes to acknowldge receipt of your letter dated 22 June 2009 regarding the right of the faithful to receive Holy Communion on the tongue.
This Dicastery observes that its Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum (25 March 2004) clearly stipulates that “each of the faithful always has the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue” (n. 92, nor is it licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful who are not impeded by law from receiving the Holy Eucharist (cf. n. 91).
The Congregation thanks you for bringing this important matter to its attention. Be assured that the appropriate contacts will be made.
May you persevere in faith and love for Our Lord and his Holy Church, and in continued devotion to the Most Blessed Sacrament.
With every good wish and kind regard, I am,
Sincerely Yours in Christ,
(Fr. Anthony Ward, S.M.)
This was written in response to a situation that a layman from the UK experienced similar to what has been discussed in this thread. The layman brought this to the attention of the CDWDS and they responded with this letter. According to the letter, the CDWDS would be contacting the diocese in question to resolve the problem. I suspect that the CDWDS will be getting a plethora of letters about this subject.
 
Yes, I am aware of this response from Rome, but how do we get priests / bishops to follow it?!
 
It is important to understand that the CDWDS has responded with semeral messages, but not to the one that people are looking for. The letter is very diplomatic. Which I wonder how long it’s going to take the faithful to be as diplomatic as the Vatican.
  1. The letter states what the writer already knew. You cannot deny communion on the tongue. Otherwise, the writer would not have written.
  2. I thanksf the writer for writing (diplomatic move # 1).
  3. I promises to make some contacts and asks some questions (diplomatic move # 2).
It does not promise to change anything. Because accordin to canon law a bishop can grant a dispensation from certain actions and rules:

**Can. 87 §1. A diocesan bishop, whenever he judges that it contributes to their spiritual good, is able to dispense the faithful from universal and particular disciplinary laws issued for his territory or his subjects by the supreme authority of the Church. He is not able to dispense, however, from procedural or penal laws nor from those whose dispensation is specially reserved to the Apostolic See or some other authority. **

Here is the glitch. The bishop is not dispensing from procedural or penal laws. This is another category of law. Distribution of Holy Communion does not fall under either of these. This are laws that govern the courts. This is a not a court issue. The other side of the glitch is that there some laws from which only the Apostoli See can dispense. This raises the question, is communion on tongue one of those. That’s not written anywhere. What has been written is that the conferences of bishops mays dispense from communion on the tongue as long as they have the indult, which we do in many countries.

Section 2 of canon law.

§2. If recourse to the Holy See is difficult and, at the same time, there is danger of grave harm in delay, any ordinary is able to dispense from these same laws even if dispensation is reserved to the Holy See, provided that it concerns a dispensation which the Holy See is accustomed to grant under the same circumstances, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 291.

I remember studying this one in the seminary. In English it means that a bishop can can grant a dispensation of matter that is reserved for the pope, before contacting the poep, if he believes that the situation is serious. He must sill inform the Holy See and the Holy See has the choice to uphold or turn over the dispensation. In the meantime, the dispensation stands until Rome speaks.

If the bishop says, because of swine flue, everyone is dispensed from communion in the hand and it will not to be available for the short-term, the decision stands until it is overturned, if it is overturned.

That’s why the letter from the CDWDS does now answer how this is going to be solved. Because the writer does not know the answer. They after making contact with the bishop, they may decide to support his decision, since it si a short-term dispensation from the norm. They may turn it around. The bishop may want a hearing with the Holy Father, in which case it turns around again and the commuion on the tongue is banned again until the pope decides. This could go on longer than tthe swine flue. The Sacred Congreation knows this. Therefore, they avoid over turning these things as long as they have the word of the bishop that this is going to be short-term. Then the waiting game begins to see if the bishop will comply with what he promised.

To answer someone’s queston, "how do me make them change?’ You don’t, because you can’t No one can make anyone change. You can lead the horse. That’s all.

However, there is a wonderful way to be happy, despite the fact that you can’t change others. Our holy Father Francis wrote may admonitions that he added to our rule. He is one that I find very helpful. It keeps me at peace and focussed on the things that I can change.

**Admonition 11. That one must not be seduced by Bad Example.
  1. To the servant of God nothing should be displeasing save sin. And no matter in what way any one may sin, if the servant of God is troubled or angered he treasures up guilt to himself.
2 The servant of God who does not trouble himself or get angry about anything lives uprightly and without sin.**

The point is very simple. If you want to be without sin, don’t let someone else’s sin lead you to the sin of anger. What is very interesting is that Francis understood justifiable anger. But he also understood humanity. Therefore, he made no room for justifiable anger in this thelogy. He knew that men play that card all too often. He was not going to create wiggle room for those who abuse that card. In his mind, God knew the difference and that’s all that mattered. If you are angry, you assume that you are in sin, go to confession and get past it. If the anger is justificable the grace of confession wi a bonus that will be applied elsewhere.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I really don’t get this entire thing with the H1N1 and receiving communion. I tend to think its just an excuse for Bishops to stamp out the more traditional practice they don’t like anyway. There has been absolutely no issues in the Orthodox Church and if anyone is familiar with they way Orthodox receive communion (Body and Blood) it would seem the more likely way to contract H1N1. Has there been any issues with Eastern Catholic Bishops or is this just the Western Bishops? I would be curious to know!
 
It is important to understand that the CDWDS has responded with semeral messages, but not to the one that people are looking for. The letter is very diplomatic. Which I wonder how long it’s going to take the faithful to be as diplomatic as the Vatican.
  1. The letter states what the writer already knew. You cannot deny communion on the tongue. Otherwise, the writer would not have written.
  2. I thanksf the writer for writing (diplomatic move # 1).
  3. I promises to make some contacts and asks some questions (diplomatic move # 2).
It does not promise to change anything. Because accordin to canon law a bishop can grant a dispensation from certain actions and rules:

Can. 87 §1. A diocesan bishop, whenever he judges that it contributes to their spiritual good, is able to dispense the faithful from universal and particular disciplinary laws issued for his territory or his subjects by the supreme authority of the Church. He is not able to dispense, however, from procedural or penal laws nor from those whose dispensation is specially reserved to the Apostolic See or some other authority.

Here is the glitch. The bishop is not dispensing from procedural or penal laws. This is another category of law. Distribution of Holy Communion does not fall under either of these. This are laws that govern the courts. This is a not a court issue. The other side of the glitch is that there some laws from which only the Apostoli See can dispense. This raises the question, is communion on tongue one of those. That’s not written anywhere. What has been written is that the conferences of bishops mays dispense from communion on the tongue as long as they have the indult, which we do in many countries.

)
I would also question if this is actually a dispensation. I’ll have to check by copy of Catholic Dictionary, but generally a dispensation would be to allow the member of the faithful to not be bound by a rule. Such as a dispensation from the obligation to attend Mass.

Having such a dispensation simply removes the obligation to follow a law, it does not demand it. If that was true, would we consider someone with a dispenation to eat meat on a Lenten Friday to be disobedient if they actually DID abstain?

A case that comes to mind was when the Bishop Foley of Birmingham, AL attempted to restrict EWTN’s ability to say a Mass in Latin and Ad Orientum.

The first is clearly a universal norm, and second simply an option under the Universal Norm (very much like the faithful being able to choose between two options in receiving Communion)

The CDWDS ruled that Bishop Foley had no authority to restrict the celebration of the Mass either in Latin, or ad orientum. It did rule that he had the authority to restrict the broadcast of such liturgies.
 
The interresting thing about the CDWDS response on this matter is first what was said, and second, what was not said.

The Congregation responded by reminding the recipient that Communion on the tongue is a right.

Secondly, the Cong. did not say that COTT is a matter of following the rubrics of the Mass. Yes, a reference to the GIRM was made, but only by way of reference.

So this isn’t a question about following the liturgical norms, it’s a question about denying the faithful a right.

When it comes to the obligation to follow the norms, a dispensation can be granted by a competent authority…but wait…

…this isn’t about dispensing from the norms, it’s about denying someone a right. No one is actually being dispensed from anything. That’s why instead of looking at the authority to dispense, we instead have to look at the authority to restrict a person’s right. A dispensation can release someone from an obigation. But I don’t believe an ecclesiastical authority can grant a dispensation to remove that person’s right. Here’s what I mean. Think about the sentence “I hereby dispense you from your right to…” That just doesn’t make sense to me. However “I hereby dispense you from your obligation to…” yes, of course. But the later is not what’s happening here.

Canon 85 defines a dispensation as “the relaxation of a merely ecclesiastical law in a particular case.” But the issue here is not one of relaxing a ecclesiastical law, it’s denying Catholics who are eligible to receive Communion (and therefore must be admitted) from their right to receive on the tongue. It’s not relaxing a law, it’s restricting the free exercise of a right.

Can the right of a person who has the swine flu to receive Communion on the tongue be restricted on an individual basis? I would say perhaps.

However, can the right of a perfectly healthy person to receive on the tongue be denied, merely because that person happens to be present in a certain territory? Or can all persons who happen to be present within a given territory be denied their right to receive on the tongue without distinction? I would say no.

Can. 38 An administrative act, even if it is a rescript given motu proprio, lacks effect insofar as it injures the acquired right of another or is contrary to a law or approved custom, unless the competent authority has expressly added a derogating clause.

Since the act of forbidding Communion on the tongue injures the right of Catholics who are properly disposed and otherwise eligible to receive, I see it as a violation of c. 38 (just for starters).
 
I have read all the post and have a hard time understanding most of them. If you want COTT do it and if you want CITH do it. I perfer the last, but have no problem with what others do. PERIOD.
 
Let’s get a canon lawyer’s opinion.

Who Interprets Canon Law?
Perhaps a good place to begin exploring canon law and eucharistic devotion is with the question, “Who is competent to interpret canon law?” The Code of Canon Law foresees this question, answering as follows in the first paragraph of canon 16: “Laws are authentically interpreted by the legislator and by that person to whom the legislator entrusts the power of authentic interpretation.” Those with legislative power within the Church are the Roman Pontiff and the bishops in communion with him, and not canonists and theologians unless they happen to be the Roman Pontiff or a bishop. In the case of canonical legislation affecting the universal Church, canon 331 reminds us the Roman Pontiff is both the supreme legislator of canon law as well as the supreme interpreter of canon law.
Peter Vere, JCL

Heretics, from the Greek root hairesis – to choose, select a portion of Scripture and elevate its importance as superior to all other verses. A similar error may happen when non-canonical persons select specific canons and elevate them as more important and controlling than an examination of the entire code. Thus, I hope those who are not canon lawyers and persist in citing particular canons will indulge those of us who gratefully accept your (name removed by moderator)ut but believe we need an expert’s (name removed by moderator)ut before defaming any bishop as being a canonical-criminial.
 
Let’s get a canon lawyer’s opinion.

Who Interprets Canon Law?
Perhaps a good place to begin exploring canon law and eucharistic devotion is with the question, “Who is competent to interpret canon law?” The Code of Canon Law foresees this question, answering as follows in the first paragraph of canon 16: “Laws are authentically interpreted by the legislator and by that person to whom the legislator entrusts the power of authentic interpretation.” Those with legislative power within the Church are the Roman Pontiff and the bishops in communion with him, and not canonists and theologians unless they happen to be the Roman Pontiff or a bishop. In the case of canonical legislation affecting the universal Church, canon 331 reminds us the Roman Pontiff is both the supreme legislator of canon law as well as the supreme interpreter of canon law.
Peter Vere, JCL

Heretics, from the Greek root hairesis – to choose, select a portion of Scripture and elevate its importance as superior to all other verses. A similar error may happen when non-canonical persons select specific canons and elevate them as more important and controlling than an examination of the entire code. Thus, I hope those who are not canon lawyers and persist in citing particular canons will indulge those of us who gratefully accept your (name removed by moderator)ut but believe we need an expert’s (name removed by moderator)ut before defaming any bishop as being a canonical-criminial.
Great, now we are starting to agree. 👍

The one who is entrusted to interpret legislation is the actual legislator.

Now, the 1 Million dollar question. Who is the legislator for the General Instruction of the Roman Missal?

Hint - it is the body that the bishop had to send it to for approval.

And what did that body have to say on the subject we are discussing? We know that a lay person in the UK went to this body FOR an interpretation ( see Canon 16 your source quoted)

What was that interpretation?
 
Let’s get a canon lawyer’s opinion.

Who Interprets Canon Law?
Perhaps a good place to begin exploring canon law and eucharistic devotion is with the question, “Who is competent to interpret canon law?” The Code of Canon Law foresees this question, answering as follows in the first paragraph of canon 16: “Laws are authentically interpreted by the legislator and by that person to whom the legislator entrusts the power of authentic interpretation.” Those with legislative power within the Church are the Roman Pontiff and the bishops in communion with him, and not canonists and theologians unless they happen to be the Roman Pontiff or a bishop. In the case of canonical legislation affecting the universal Church, canon 331 reminds us the Roman Pontiff is both the supreme legislator of canon law as well as the supreme interpreter of canon law.
Peter Vere, JCL

Heretics, from the Greek root hairesis – to choose, select a portion of Scripture and elevate its importance as superior to all other verses. A similar error may happen when non-canonical persons select specific canons and elevate them as more important and controlling than an examination of the entire code. Thus, I hope those who are not canon lawyers and persist in citing particular canons will indulge those of us who gratefully accept your (name removed by moderator)ut but believe we need an expert’s (name removed by moderator)ut before defaming any bishop as being a canonical-criminial.
However, you are still failing to recognize the authority of the CDWDS in this matter. With all due respect, O’Malley, Fr. David and many of us have made the same points to you, but, as I see it, you seem to refuse to understand. If we were to hold to your interpretation, then the CDWDS would not have the right to intervene. This is a wrong interpretation. Issues like COTT, COITH and the like are within the scope of the authority of the CDWDS. The only time that the documents state that one form of reception can be restricted is found here, according to Redemptionis Sacramentum:
[92.] Although each of the faithful always has the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue, at his choice,178 if any communicant should wish to receive the Sacrament in the hand, in areas where the Bishops’ Conference with the recognitio of the Apostolic See has given permission, the sacred host is to be administered to him or her. However, special care should be taken to ensure that the host is consumed by the communicant in the presence of the minister, so that no one goes away carrying the Eucharistic species in his hand. If there is a risk of profanation, then Holy Communion should not be given in the hand to thefaithful.179
Thus, the document is quite clear.
 
However, you are still failing to recognize the authority of the CDWDS in this matter.
Awww, you went and told him who the legislating authority was 😦 Spoilsport 😛

So, by his own quote, THIS is the place we should be looking at for an authentic interpretation.

And the CDWDS even provided one already 👍

So I guess we are all in agreement now 😃
The only time that the documents state that one form of reception can be restricted is found here, according to Redemptionis Sacramentum:
Oh, by the way O’Malley, The CDWDS is the legislator of R.S. as well :cool:
 
However, you are still failing to recognize the authority of the CDWDS in this matter. With all due respect, O’Malley, Fr. David and many of us have made the same points to you, but, as I see it, you seem to refuse to understand. If we were to hold to your interpretation, then the CDWDS would not have the right to intervene. This is a wrong interpretation. Issues like COTT, COITH and the like are within the scope of the authority of the CDWDS. The only time that the documents state that one form of reception can be restricted is found here, according to Redemptionis Sacramentum:

Thus, the document is quite clear.
My dear, I understand your points. What you seem to fail to understand is that I have no position, no interpretation for you to disagree with. See my posts. I repeatedly admit I am not qualified to render an opinion on so serious a matter as to defame a bishop. I am willing to remain open-minded until the process is completed. I think others should as well (CCC #2477).
 
My dear, I understand your points. What you seem to fail to understand is that I have no position, no interpretation for you to disagree with. See my posts. I repeatedly admit I am not qualified to render an opinion on so serious a matter as to defame a bishop. I am willing to remain open-minded until the process is completed. I think others should as well (CCC #2477).
So, are you saying that when one has a legitimate concern and knows, with supporting documentation, that the bishop is acting incorrectly, that individual should not have recourse to the appropriate Vatican agency to deal with this matter?

No one is defaming the bishop. However, his own actions run contrary to what the CDWDS has mandated and stated. It is our duty to point out when actions wind up violating the mandates of the Church. In this case, the bishop has clearly overstated the bounds of his authority.

If we hold true to your line of reasoning, then, the laity would not have the right to file a legitimate complaint with the CDWDS? This, as I see it, is ridiculous, since RS guarantees the laity that right.
 
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