Thoughts on Catholic and Atheist Relationship

[Norseman82]

Can’t you find a Catholic man? There are so many that are trying to find Catholic wives, why are you turning your back on them? In fact, there is one that started a thread about the difficulties of finding a Catholic wife; if you two are close enough geographically and in age, why not give him a shot?

 

[EnglishTeacher]

What is your opinion on a Catholic girl (myself) in serious romantic relationship with an atheist?

If your goal is to have a Catholic family, to pray together, and to raise your children in the faith, then it makes zero sense to date an atheist, regardless of how nice he may be.

 

[pianistclare]

I would never even consider it.
And I would hope my daughters would not either.

 

[Russell_SA]

Theism and Gnosicism are two different labels to atheists.
Theist and atheist are labels of what you have been convinced of, whether or not you know it to be true.
Gnosticism and Agnosticism are knowledge claims about reality, what you have direct knowledge about.
Knowledge is a subset to your beliefs because what you know about reality shapes what you believe to be true about reality for future predictability.
Example: Jury members are by default not convinced the defendant is guilty from the start of the trial. They have to become convinced by the prosecutor that the defendant most likely performed the crime. If they are not convinced by the prosecutor’s bad reasons and evidence, the jury members remain in disbelief. The jury members are atheists in the arguments that the religious put forth for why the religious believe a deity exists.

The jury members do not know, do not have direct knowledge, that the defendant did or did not perform the crime they are accused of. So they are agnostic about that that claim.

So you can be agnostic theist/atheist and gnostic theist/atheist.
Gnostic statements are affirmations about reality and place a burden of proof on the person making that claim.
Example: Jar of super natural transcendent marbles that no one can investigate. Religion A states there is an odd number of marbles. The atheist says, I don’t believe you. Does that mean they, by default, believe there is an even number of marbles? No, No it does not. Because Religion B comes along and states there is an even number of marbles. The atheist also states, I don’t believe you either. What is the atheist’s position on the actual existence of the marbles? None, they don’t have one. They only have a position on your reason for why you believe there is an even or odd number of marbles; on the position on your reason for why you believe god exist or does not exist.
Gnostic Atheists has a position on the existence of the marbles and categorically state there are no marbles at all. Agnostic Atheists have no position on the actual existence of the marbles but are unconvinced there are marbles and that there is an even or odd number of marbles based on the bad reasons and evidence the religious have presented so far.
Atheists will tell you why you failed to convince them and what it would take to convince them. That is not closed minded at all.

 

[Russell_SA]

Believe is not a choice you can make. It is the result of applying your logic to reality and the result is your belief. Such as A + B = C. “A” and “B” are just observed facts about reality, “+” and “=” is your applied logic to those observations. “C” is your belief/Conclusion about that event for predicting future events of A and B. Until reality presents this to not be the case and/or you learn a different application of logic, you can not change your conclusion, “C”. It is not a choice you make. Example: Sit in a chair, then choose to believe you are not sitting in a chair. You can lie to everyone else that you are not until they believe that about your experience, but you can not lie to yourself. This is why you have to talk to people that don’t see the world through your experience and interpretation. They need to understand your logic about reality since reality is accessible to everyone. We can all understand what it is to experience A and B, but we don’t all have your logic/filter for applying that experience into your understanding of reality.

FYI - there is no such thing as Atheism. There are atheist, but not Atheism.
Atheist - Single position on a single topic. Are you convinced that the supernatural exists? No, no we are not. Same as the Jury example - jury finds the defendant not guilty. Now tell me any of the jury members’ world view? Political view? education level? personal leaders? religions? personal philosophy? You can’t, it’s not possible.
Atheism is like saying the jury member has a world view of “Not-Guilty-ism” for not being convinced the defendant was guilty. There’s no such thing as that world view.
Many world views have a lot of atheists in them, like skepticism. But you can still be religious and be a skeptic. Francis Collins, head scientist of the human genome project is a good example of a christian skeptic.

 

[Russell_SA]

Do to their categorical declaration of a group of people to not engage with based on one identifying factor that has nothing to do with that person’s character; exactly the same reason to not engage someone based on their race. Their race has as much to do with their character as the atheist position on the supernatural has to do with their character.

 

[Russell_SA]

So, according to you, this example is not a racist/bigoted remark? To categorically state that someone would not even consider it, to marry outside your race. That is exact same for categorically stating to not want to marry someone with no belief in the supernatural. Neither one has anything to do with their character as a human being. You can still be culturally religious and be an atheist. Jewish people do this all the time. You can still have the same political goals as well. My two friends, who are atheist and catholic and married to each other, are a living example of this. You can still join in to other people’s cultural traditions and show respect to the world views that their partner finds valuable.

 

[Elf01]

When I marry, I’m not just looking for someone who shares my political views or that I consider a good person. I’m looking for someone who will be a compatible partner and support in raising children in my faith. As much as a non Catholic may be supportive you cannot pass on what you don’t have yourself e.g. if something were to happen to me.

Yes, some people can make it work, but I think it’s easier if you don’t have that hurdle to navigate.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

So, according to you, this example is not a racist/bigoted remark? To categorically state that someone would not even consider it, to marry outside your race. That is exact same for categorically stating to not want to marry someone with no belief in the supernatural

Race and religion are two completely different things. Having said that, it is not necessarily racist to decide you will marry only within your ethnic group. People may just wish to preserve their cultural heritage and traditions and to marry someone who shares them, and that desire in itself is not racist. (The only way it becomes racist is if their decision is based on a belief that other races or ethnicities are inferior.)

To categorically state that someone would not even consider it, to marry outside your race. That is exact same for categorically stating to not want to marry someone with no belief in the supernatural. Neither one has anything to do with their character as a human being.

It is not the same thing. Many difficulties can arise in marriages with mixed religions, and it is in no way bigoted if a Muslim prefers to marry only Muslims, a Jew only Jews, or a Christian only Christians. It has nothing to do with their character as a human being; it has to do with goals for marriage and raising a family and passing on the faith.

You can still be culturally religious and be an atheist. Jewish people do this all the time. You can still have the same political goals as well. My two friends, who are atheist and catholic and married to each other, are a living example of this. You can still join in to other people’s cultural traditions and show respect to the world views that their partner finds valuable.

Perhaps it is different with the Jewish faith; I don’t know. But you cannot be Catholic and be an atheist. At the very heart of Christianity is the belief that Jesus Christ is true God and true man, that he died for our sins, rose bodily from the dead, and will one day come again. We profess this belief every Sunday in the Creed, and as Catholics, when we receive the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist. A Christianity that does not believe is no Christianity at all.

Yes, there are people who make mixed marriages work. But they are a difficult thing, and a person is in no way a “bigot” for deciding to rule out that option. Statistically, the chances of your children remaining Catholic in a mixed marriage are much lower if the parents do not share the faith, particularly if the father does not. So if a person’s goal is to raise a Catholic family, marrying someone who does not believe is antithetical to that goal.

 

[TC3033]

When I marry, I’m not just looking for someone who shares my political views or that I consider a good person. I’m looking for someone who will be a compatible partner and support in raising children in my faith. As much as a non Catholic may be supportive you cannot pass on what you don’t have yourself e.g. if something were to happen to me.

Yes, some people can make it work, but I think it’s easier if you don’t have that hurdle to navigate.

Not everyone sees a mixed marriage having an additional “hurdle”. For us it’s just as much stepping over a tooth pick as it would be getting over a hurdle

 

[Russell_SA]

It is not a guarantee that your children will believe what you believe about the supernatural. If you are already teaching them that you would only want a relationship with people that believe what you believe, they will never tell you if they don’t believe what you believe out of fear of loosing the relationship with you. Unfortunately it is a very common practice for religious families to kick out their children from the family unit if they don’t believe what their parents believe. The children can respect your cultural traditions and myths and legends but they may not actually believe those things to be true. Example: if you point to four apples and claim that your religious beliefs conclude there are three apples there, is it wrong that your children or anyone else does not have that same conclusion you hold? No, No it is not. But it is wrong to teach people that you do not value these people as you would other people. Or that those other people are broken in some way. To be treated as separate but equal. Tribalism over benign cultural traditions is absurd.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

But it is wrong to teach people that you do not value these people as you would other people. Or that those other people are broken in some way. To be treated as separate but equal. Tribalism over benign cultural traditions is absurd

How do you draw any of those conclusions from the discussion above? No one has proposed isolating themselves from other people, cultures, or religions; and no one has suggested teaching their children or others not to value people from different traditions.

The discussion was solely about marriage and dating that could potentially lead to marriage. As the above poster said:

She said she would not marry a person with different beliefs. Entirely different from refusing to engage with someone on any level because they have different beliefs.

 

[QwertyGirl]

Not everyone sees a mixed marriage having an additional “hurdle”. For us it’s just as much stepping over a tooth pick as it would be getting over a hurdle

Sometimes it even positively enhances a marriage.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Keep 2 things in mind.

1. CAF represents a more rigorous or “purer” interpretation of living ones Catholicism.
2. in context of #1, compatibility of the definition and purpose of marriage is a legit concern for some.

 

[Paul71]

Unfortunately it is a very common practice for religious families to kick out their children from the family unit if they don’t believe what their parents believe.

What does this claim have to do with the current discussion? No one on this thread has suggested “kick[ing] out their children from the family unit” if they leave the Catholic faith. I would never want to sever ties with my children for any reason.

 

[tafan2]

Unfortunately it is a very common practice for religious families to kick out their children from the family unit if they don’t believe what their parents believe.

BS. I know lots, and I mean lots of families with children who have different faiths than they were taught or than what their parents believe. I know of none, zero, nadda, not one family who have kicked out their kids from a family for this reason. It may happen in some very strict fundamentalist protestant religious families, but it would be even rare there. It is not common at all.

 

[Dr_Meinheimer]

I’d say since she asked us, no, we shouldn’t let her make that decision. Once you ask for advice, you can either read what is posted, or close the topic.

 

[AliasApril]

I wouldn’t do it.

 

[yppop]

I am guessing that you love this guy, would like to marry him, but are worried that his current beliefs would be an impediment to a good marriage. You’ve gotten lots of advice and IMO, because there is no way to predict success in marriage, you can ignore all the advice that implies that you shouldn’t marry him. I think you are looking for a way to marry a guy that is an “atheist”. I emphasized atheist because he doesn’t sound like one to me. He certainly has some sound Catholic pro-life beliefs.

Success in marriage depends, in order, on the following factors: 1. love (respect for one another’s needs), 2. compatibility (respect for one another’s identity); 3. friendship (being comfortable in each other’s company); and 4. a sense of humor. I am not saying that all these factors are required; they are merely the factors that made and still makes my marriage of 60 years so delightful.

Okay so, where is religion? It is my experience that if you don’t make an issue of it, it will solve itself. Here is my experience: My wife and I have 8 children, of the 3 boys and 5 girls, 7 are married. One of our boys is a priest. One of our boys and 3 of our girls married non-Catholics. All 7 marriages have been successful; the marriages are now 36, 34, 31, 29, 27, 23, 18 years duration. The 4 non-Catholics have become practicing Catholics. They converted after, 21, 15, 12, and 1 year of marriage; in other words, of their own accord. All my children and their spouses are practicing Catholics.

All 22 of the grandchildren went to at least 8 years of Catholic school, 4 didn’t go to Catholic H.S. (because of unavailability). All my children and their spouses graduated from college. All the husbands had jobs that allowed the wives to be stay-at-home-mothers. As far as I can tell, all our grandchildren, now ranging in age from 14 -34, are growing up normally. I don’t know that all are practicing their religion, that is, of course up to them, but the seed was well planted.

IMO we cannot predict the success of a marriage based on religion alone. One must be judicious in selecting a mate. I suppose the probability of success is highest if both practice the same religion (see factor 2 above), but that certainly is not a guarantee. I believe that the probability is lowest when both have no religion. And if one practices their religion and the other doesn’t have one, there is still a possibility for success if the one practicing a religion follows these rules: (1) never try to convert him/her, don’t even mention religion; just practice yours sincerely; (2) never criticize the other’s family; (3) agree to raise the children in the religion of the practicing partner; (4) if a Catholic, get married in church, even if it is not at a nuptial Mass; (5) be patient, and trust in the Holy Spirit.

God bless you,
Yppop

 

[whatistrue]

I think that it depends entirely on the two of you. So long as you each understand and respect the position and feelings of the other, and most importantly communicate with each other, there is no reason that you cannot have a lifelong relationship.

I do speak at least to an extent from experience. I am (or at least was until very recently) very much an agnostic. I was married for nearly 25 years (until her death) to a very devout fundamentalist Christian. We stayed married through thick and thin, good times and bad, and had 2 children, both of whom still live with me while finishing school. The key for us was that we set ground rules early and stuck with them unless there was good (mutual) reason to modify them. I never put down her beliefs even though I didn’t share them, and conversely she never nagged me to “be saved”. And we both had the same image of marriage as a lifelong commitment and both took our promises seriously.

And I am about to be married to a very devout Catholic woman. Our respective beliefs have been discussed both between us alone and as part of marriage preparation with the priest who will officiate at our wedding.

So don’t base your decision on what I or anyone else on this thread say, but on what you think and feel, but be very sure that you and your potential partner are fully aware of the possible pitfalls and have decided ahead of time how to handle them. And communicate always.