Thoughts on Charasmatic Renewal

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As long as charismatic Catholics follow Catholic doctrine and liturgy without error or abuses I have no problem with them. Our Lord is faithful to run His Church.

If individuals speak out in error (no matter their charism) we need to commit to a spiritual act of mercy and charitably and gently correct them.
 
I would agree that in any Pentecostal or charismatic movement there will be problems, that is the nature of anything humans are involved with. However, there will also be the genuine. I feel that while charismatics may be in danger of going overboard sometimes, there is also a danger for those who don’t agree with it as well. Isn’t there a danger that you do reject something that is of God? When there are problems and abuse, it isn’t wrong to call them out and seek to correct them, but don’t we have to be careful that we don’t inadvertently quench the Spirit as well? I feel like some people who are against the charismatic movement sometimes do this without realizing it. In 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21 we are told “Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good.”

Furthermore, Irenaeus warns against “remov[ing] the prophetic gift from the Church,” saying even further, “Moreover it is to be taken for granted that such men also would not accept the apostle Paul. For in the epistle which is to the Corinthians he has spoken diligently about prophetic gifts, and he knows men and women who prophesy in the Church.” (Against Heresies 3.11.12)
 
As long as charismatic Catholics follow Catholic doctrine and liturgy without error or abuses I have no problem with them. Our Lord is faithful to run His Church.

If individuals speak out in error (no matter their charism) we need to commit to a spiritual act of mercy and charitably and gently correct them.
Thanks! Good common sense here! 👍
 
And this is exactly what is wrong with the CCR…

Please explain your objection. (Keeping in mind… the mass attended was a Charismatic Mass open to all but attended mostly by Charismatics and celebrated by a Charismatic Bishop.
WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF???..
 
Ïrish" let me tell you a true story … I was of a VERY traditional Catholic family … The ONLY family I knew who prayed the rosary EVERY night of our family life. I received “the infilling of the Holy Spirit” at the age of 7. Kneeling on my knees the the living room with the family in the middle of the glorious mysteries of the Rosary. I had to hold onto the piano stool to stop from falling over. Although I did no blurt out ‘tongues’ at that time… immediatly after, I ran into my room and couldn’t help but break out in a joyous ‘babble’. The recognition of being filled with the Spirit of God was undenighable. I continued to “speak” to God in this new communication every night before I slept. At the time I DID feel it was a private secret between me and God. It was not until many years later that I could put a name to my experience and the babble I uttered. I was even more excited when I found that others also received this gift and joined together to use it in community prayer. Thats be to God!..
 
I don’t want to get into an argument on this I don’t like them but I will say this

The Charismatic renewal is not and I repeat is not looked down on the Church in anyway, it is a legitimate movement of the Church it is producing fruits (IMO), and it doesn’t go against or bring scandal to the church in major ways.

I understand there are some issues people have with them, like people focus to much on their emotions instead of going deep into prayer with God.

People act like distractions to others, sometimes people fake it.

It seems like a lot of these groups have liturgical abuses associated with them.

I could go on and on

But again Holy Mother Church doesn’t condemn this group, so I will not condemn anyone for being in this group.

If God so wills and I become a priest and I am put into a parish that is a Charismatic renewal Church I will work with them meet the people where they are, remove the Abuses, and serve the people God has called me to serve.
 
Ïrish" let me tell you a true story … I was of a VERY traditional Catholic family … The ONLY family I knew who prayed the rosary EVERY night of our family life. I received “the infilling of the Holy Spirit” at the age of 7. Kneeling on my knees the the living room with the family in the middle of the glorious mysteries of the Rosary. I had to hold onto the piano stool to stop from falling over. Although I did no blurt out ‘tongues’ at that time… immediatly after, I ran into my room and couldn’t help but break out in a joyous ‘babble’. The recognition of being filled with the Spirit of God was undenighable. I continued to “speak” to God in this new communication every night before I slept. At the time I DID feel it was a private secret between me and God. It was not until many years later that I could put a name to my experience and the babble I uttered. I was even more excited when I found that others also received this gift and joined together to use it in community prayer. Thats be to God!..
Very very cool!
 
I have had a very similar expereince to the one described, many times, so I am eager for you to explain what yousee that is "wrong’.
I have put emphasis on my concerns. It is obvious that some of the gift that illusion buster has mentioned remain untested and therefore there origin remain questionable. The Pope recently told 100 bishops that it is their duty to discern the authenticity of these charisms.

“We must be clear that no charism can exist without reference and submission to the Pastors of the Church,” (Pope Benedict XVI)

As far as the prophetic discernment that ib described, well, that truly scares me… 🤷
I have not read ALL the submissions on this thread but from what I have read, sense a lot of fear and distrust. I have been deeply involved with the charismatic movement since the 70s and was part of a Covernant community sanctioned by Pope John Paul. Our elders answered directly to the local arch bishop and where under constant communication (just in case anything went amiss) Nothing did! But the experience of 2000 voices singing as one harmonic voice was indiscribable… There was no discord…(I have a musical background). What we believed was that when we spoke in formal ‘english’ prayer… we all knew what we were saying and in that there was a limitation. But when we spoke in tongues… It was the intent and prayer of the Holy Spirit that was being offered to God… Yes! there was incredible feelings… Powerful feelings!.. and so there should be when one comes into the Holy of Holys… We knew we sang together with angels praising and worshiping God. Just like that village in Europe… There is no need to fear the charisms. They are God given… It’s a shame that their use lapsed with the traditional church. It the Church had continued their practice as first directed by the Holy Spirit, I think the church pews throughout the world would be overflowing. It is significant that the Holy Spirit has choosen modern times to re-ignite our trust in Him & His Charisms. Don’t Fear them and please don’t say that these gifts of the Holy Spirit have no place in the mass… That is ludicrous! Our community prayed in tongues after communion as the prayer of thanksgiving… It seemed most appropriate. AND … every time there were constant message interpretations being written down and sent up to the elders at the front… Only the messeges that matched were read out as the true interpretation….and they numbered in the dozens… Again I say, “It is all done in FAITH”
 
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 I have put emphasis on my concerns. It is obvious that some of the gift that illusion buster has mentioned remain untested and therefore there origin remain questionable. The Pope recently told 100 bishops that it is their duty to discern the authenticity of these charisms.
And in that instruction, affirmed that the charisms are valid in our day and age, just as they were in the book of Acts. 👍
“We must be clear that no charism can exist without reference and submission to the Pastors of the Church,” (Pope Benedict XVI)

As far as the prophetic discernment that ib described, well, that truly scares me… 🤷
I was not talking about the prophetic expression, but the worshipful event at the Eucharist. When another member described the beautiful worship of the Blessed Sacrament that spontaneously erupts at Charismatic Masses, you replied “this is exactly what is wrong with the Charismatic movement”. I am at a loss as to what you are referring to here. Do you object to the spontaneous worship of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
 
“We must be clear that no charism can exist without reference and submission to the Pastors of the Church,” (Pope Benedict XVI)

As far as the prophetic discernment that ib described, well, that truly scares me… 🤷

Irish, I understand your reaction of fear to practices not seen as conventional in the Catholic Church but … as I said… Our charismatic masses were officiated by a charismatic priest under strict direction and observance by our Arch Bishop who was in constant diaologue with the Pope. The “prophetic discernment” was structured and setout by our Archbishop himself as being the most accurate and appropriate way to discern the thread of truth being spoken and then interpreted by the crowd. The prophetic words coming through were such ‘evils’ as “love one another” “repent” “turn back to me” “forgive one another” Worship on bended knee the Lord thy God" " Have no fear, I am with you" …Regardless whether /or not the charismatic movement is for YOU…your FEAR reaction and inability to accept what WAS acceptable by his Holiness is a concern… AND… Re: Guanophore " Do you object to the spontaneous worship of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament? "???
 
And in that instruction, affirmed that the charisms are valid in our day and age, just as they were in the book of Acts. 👍
Right, as long as they have been authenticated, I have no problem acknowledging extraordinary manifestations of the Holy Spirit. I consider “speaking in tongues” to be extraordinary gifts, as the CCC has described them:
Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.”(53) Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.(54) (1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church 2003)
The Church has taught that these gifts are not to be sought after, yet, this is the norm within the CCR. If they have been sought after, their origin is questionable. The CCR has misled many good Catholics into a dangerous form of worship and for me, this is obvious.
These charisms, whether they be the more outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation for they are perfectly suited to and useful for the needs of the Church. Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.(116) (Lumen gentium EN 12)
I was not talking about the prophetic expression, but the worshipful event at the Eucharist. When another member described the beautiful worship of the Blessed Sacrament that spontaneously erupts at Charismatic Masses, you replied “this is exactly what is wrong with the Charismatic movement”. I am at a loss as to what you are referring to here. Do you object to the spontaneous worship of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
I object to the attitude that this member seems to have, along with far to many Charismatics, they often never submit these gift to be tested, and accept them “at face value” - for lack of better words - and this is problematic. Our Church does not have the structure in place to test all of these gift for their authenticity, therefore most of them are never submitted.
You might consider the spontaneous eruptions at a Charismatic Mass “beautiful”, I don’t, I want them tested before I consider them to be of any good. My caution is not unjust nor is presumptuous, it is very likely that the deceiver is having a field day at any CCR event.
 
Right, as long as they have been authenticated, I have no problem acknowledging extraordinary manifestations of the Holy Spirit. I consider “speaking in tongues” to be extraordinary gifts, as the CCC has described them:
I think you are misunderstanding the statement, though. It does NOT say the only valid gifts are those that have been authenticated. The Bishops know this is logistically impossible. It says that all the gifts are SUBJECT to authentication, meaning that they should all be submitted for such, and that no self proclaimed “gift” is exempt from such authentication.

Tongues are extraordinary in the same sense that laypersons can be ministers of the Eucharist. One need not have an extraordinary spirituality to have and exercise the gift. On the contrary, it is the most common, and “least” of all the gifts. What makes them extraordinary is that a person cannot have or exercise the gift without the activity of the Holy Spirit, since the gift comes from God, and not from ourselves.
The Church has taught that these gifts are not to be sought after, yet, this is the norm within the CCR.
I will echo what has been said to you before, that you do not seem to understand the CCR very well, and I will put for the same challenge I have to you before (that you have failed to achieve), that being to provide an official document from the CCR that states we are to seek after the gifts. If you are honest, and you really look at the material, it will become clear to you, as to anyone open minded, that we are to seek the Giver, and be open to whatever gifts the HS would like to activate within us to serve the Body of Christ. When Paul enjoins us to “earnestly desire the best gifts”, this Apostolic instruction has to be taken in context. The CCR provides that context.
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If they have been sought after, their origin is questionable.
I think what is more questionable in such a circumstance is the attitude in the heart of the person who is doing the seeking. All authentic charisms are from the Holy Spirit. Not all the seeking comes from a pure heart, and I think you and I will be in agreement that certainly not all the exercising of these gifts is appropriately done.

T
he CCR has misled many good Catholics into a dangerous form of worship and for me, this is obvious.
People lead themselves into danger, Irish. The CCR does not mislead Catholics. The abuse to which you object do not come from the papal envoy or the Bishops. All the official teaching on these matters is clear. Abuses come when people don’t follow the instruction of the CCR. Your statement is the same as saying “Vatican 2 has led many good Catholics into a dangerours form of worship”. This is just a falsehood. None of the documents of Vat. 2 suggested or supported the liturgical abuses that followed the council. People were misled by people, not by the Council.

Agreed, Catholics have been misled, but it is not the fault of the CCR in the Chruch.
I object to the attitude that this member seems to have, along with far to many Charismatics, they often never submit these gift to be tested, and accept them “at face value” - for lack of better words - and this is problematic.
There is no requirement that every gift be submitted to anyone before it is used. They are all subject to being validated. The Church has appointed shepherds over the movement, and all who are involved in them are subject to the authorities that have been appointed. When the pastor of the parish approves the prayer group to meet in the Church hall (or wherever) he consents to taking responsibility for the function of the gifts in the congregation under his care. That does not mean he attends all the meetings, or authenticates each and every individual charism.

If you have a complaint, however, the pastor would be the place to start. 😉
Our Church does not have the structure in place to test all of these gift for their authenticity, therefore most of them are never submitted.
I think you are mixing apples and oranges here. Yes, you are correct, the structure does not exist to test every gift. However, all actions of any parishioner using any gift are subject to that authority, whether it is exercised over them, or not. It is like taking a deer from the king’s forest. He may allow the peasants to hunt there, knowing they are taking deer, but each individual family does not have to ask for a hunting permit. If called upon, however, each one is subject to the authority that has been appointed over them. Submission is the attitude of obedience and deference. For example, in this area, the faithful were annointing the sick with blessed oil. Some of the faithful confused this lay form of prayer with the Annointing of the Sick. As a result, the Bishop ordered that no more blessed oil be used by laypersons during prayer meetings. They are allowed to use holy water, or blesses salt, or other sacramentals. Everyone in the diocese is subject to this authoritative ruling.
 
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You might consider the spontaneous eruptions at a Charismatic Mass "beautiful", I don't,
Then I would encourage you to avoid attending them. 😉

I want them tested before I consider them to be of any good.
That is the duty of the presiding priest or bishop. If the priest permites such worship to occur, then it can be presumed valid. If an abuse occurs, he is responsible for it. Maybe this is insufficient for you. What kind of test do you want?
Irish_Polock;8409801:
My caution is not unjust nor is presumptuous, it is very likely that the deceiver is having a field day at any CCR event.
Your assumption that the deceiver is having a field day with the CCR is judgmental and presumptuous. I agree, caution is not. Basically you are saying that y ou do not trust the authority that God has placed over the Church.
 
Right, as long as they have been authenticated, I have no problem acknowledging extraordinary manifestations of the Holy Spirit. I consider “speaking in tongues” to be extraordinary gifts, as the CCC has described them:
Ok. Why do we have a problem then?
The Church has taught that these gifts are not to be sought after, yet, this is the norm within the CCR. If they have been sought after, their origin is questionable. The CCR has misled many good Catholics into a dangerous form of worship and for me, this is obvious.
No it hasn’t. First of all, Scripture clearly says to seek them (and seek especially prophecy). Second of all, you’re quoting Lumen gentium there from the Vatican website. It is a mistranslation. Such a statement would blatantly fly in the face of what Scripture says. Check it out in a different translation, or a different language. It says something different. I was shocked when I saw that, so I checked the original Latin. The original Latin reads: Dona autem extraordinaria non sunt temere expetenda (you can see it all here ewtn.com/library/councils/v2lumlat.htm ). That word temere is an adverb, and it means “by chance, randomly, without cause, rashly, thoughtlessly”. This is totally dropped from English translation.

So what is this saying?

Dona = “gifts”, neuter second declension noun, accusative plural.

autem = “but, on the other hand, however”.

extraordinaria = “extraordinary” adjective, modifying “dona”

non sunt = are not

temere = “rashly, thoughtlessly, without cause” adverb

expetenda = “demand, ask for, exact (as a penalty)” third conjugation verb, and it’s a gerund, going with “dona” again.

My translation would be: extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly demanded. Totally different. It is NOT saying “do not seek these gifts”. Rather, if you’re going to seek them (good idea) be careful about it, use discernment, submit to the proper judgment of authorities, and know what you’re getting in to - take it seriously. No where else in any official Church document is there anything that even suggests “don’t seek these”.

Yes, we do seek things like tongues and prophecy. One, Paul (in the Bible!) says to. Two, there’s no reason not to. Three, because the Holy Spirit requires our cooperation. It’s important to seek gifts like tongues, because the Holy Spirit will absolutely not force the gift on anyone. He will never violate one’s free will or self control, unless someone lets Him - and even then, only to a certain degree. The gifts require a great deal of openness, and some of them especially require us to seek them. Ultimately, there is nothing dangerous in seeking spiritual gifts. There is room for deception, for error, for misunderstanding - but the act of seeking itself is a good thing. We should all seek to have an abundance of spiritual gifts for our own sakes, but more especially for the sake of the whole Church.

I think many non-charismatics hold fast to some baseless idea that we should not seek charisms, and should even avoid them, due to a misunderstanding of the charisms. They are not extraordinary personal consolations - like visions, locutions etc. Those we shouldn’t seek, and we should be very careful of them if they do occur. The charisms are different (though they may be accompanied by visions and locutions - especially prophecy). We should seek them, because they’re meant to be sought. But more importantly, we should open ourselves up to and use what we have already been given through the sacraments.

I also think many non-charismatics uphold this idea because they are uncomfortable with the idea of tongues, or prophecy, and a lot of Catholics have a knee-jerk reaction to discover that the Holy Spirit and His gifts are still around.
I want them tested before I consider them to be of any good. My caution is not unjust nor is presumptuous, it is very likely that the deceiver is having a field day at any CCR event.
While we should test them, St. Paul warns us that in testing them we should not quench the Spirit. The Church does not need to authenticate every single little manifestation of the Holy Spirit. That is ridiculous. If that is your attitude, then the charisms will be of little use to you. Certainly test them, certainly discern them, certainly submit to the authoritative discernment of the clergy - but to simply say “I won’t consider it good until it has been proven to be authentic” is somewhat senseless, and counter-productive.
 
Ok. Why do we have a problem then?

No it hasn’t. First of all, Scripture clearly says to seek them (and seek especially prophecy). Second of all, you’re quoting Lumen gentium there from the Vatican website. It is a mistranslation. Such a statement would blatantly fly in the face of what Scripture says. Check it out in a different translation, or a different language. It says something different. I was shocked when I saw that, so I checked the original Latin. The original Latin reads: Dona autem extraordinaria non sunt temere expetenda (you can see it all here ewtn.com/library/councils/v2lumlat.htm ). That word temere is an adverb, and it means “by chance, randomly, without cause, rashly, thoughtlessly”. This is totally dropped from English translation.

So what is this saying?

Dona = “gifts”, neuter second declension noun, accusative plural.

autem = “but, on the other hand, however”.

extraordinaria = “extraordinary” adjective, modifying “dona”

non sunt = are not

temere = “rashly, thoughtlessly, without cause” adverb

expetenda = “demand, ask for, exact (as a penalty)” third conjugation verb, and it’s a gerund, going with “dona” again.

My translation would be: extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly demanded. Totally different. It is NOT saying “do not seek these gifts”. Rather, if you’re going to seek them (good idea) be careful about it, use discernment, submit to the proper judgment of authorities, and know what you’re getting in to - take it seriously. No where else in any official Church document is there anything that even suggests “don’t seek these”.

Yes, we do seek things like tongues and prophecy. One, Paul (in the Bible!) says to. Two, there’s no reason not to. Three, because the Holy Spirit requires our cooperation. It’s important to seek gifts like tongues, because the Holy Spirit will absolutely not force the gift on anyone. He will never violate one’s free will or self control, unless someone lets Him - and even then, only to a certain degree. The gifts require a great deal of openness, and some of them especially require us to seek them. Ultimately, there is nothing dangerous in seeking spiritual gifts. There is room for deception, for error, for misunderstanding - but the act of seeking itself is a good thing. We should all seek to have an abundance of spiritual gifts for our own sakes, but more especially for the sake of the whole Church.

I think many non-charismatics hold fast to some baseless idea that we should not seek charisms, and should even avoid them, due to a misunderstanding of the charisms. They are not extraordinary personal consolations - like visions, locutions etc. Those we shouldn’t seek, and we should be very careful of them if they do occur. The charisms are different (though they may be accompanied by visions and locutions - especially prophecy). We should seek them, because they’re meant to be sought. But more importantly, we should open ourselves up to and use what we have already been given through the sacraments.

I also think many non-charismatics uphold this idea because they are uncomfortable with the idea of tongues, or prophecy, and a lot of Catholics have a knee-jerk reaction to discover that the Holy Spirit and His gifts are still around.

While we should test them, St. Paul warns us that in testing them we should not quench the Spirit. The Church does not need to authenticate every single little manifestation of the Holy Spirit. That is ridiculous. If that is your attitude, then the charisms will be of little use to you. Certainly test them, certainly discern them, certainly submit to the authoritative discernment of the clergy - but to simply say “I won’t consider it good until it has been proven to be authentic” is somewhat senseless, and counter-productive.
You and Guanophore need to work out weather these gifts are sought or not… 😃

Let me know what the conclusion is. 😉
 
Certainly test them, certainly discern them, certainly submit to the authoritative discernment of the clergy - but to simply say “I won’t consider it good until it has been proven to be authentic” is somewhat senseless, and counter-productive.
This is SOP for miracles in the Catholic Church.
 
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