Thoughts on Charasmatic Renewal

[guanophore]

My translation would be: extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly demanded. Totally different. It is NOT saying “do not seek these gifts”. Rather, if you’re going to seek them (good idea) be careful about it, use discernment, submit to the proper judgment of authorities, and know what you’re getting in to - take it seriously. No where else in any official Church document is there anything that even suggests “don’t seek these”.

I think some of this language is a reaction to Protestant Pentecostalism, including “snake handling”. During some of the Protestant tent revivals, practitioners would bring snakes just to prove they could handle them. This is so far from God’s intention for His promises one can see why the council used this cautionary language. Just because Jesus promised you would not die when bitten by a deadly snake does not mean you go out looking for them and bring them to prayer meetings!

the Holy Spirit will absolutely not force the gift on anyone. He will never violate one’s free will or self control, unless someone lets Him - and even then, only to a certain degree. The gifts require a great deal of openness, and some of them especially require us to seek them. Ultimately, there is nothing dangerous in seeking spiritual gifts. There is room for deception, for error, for misunderstanding - but the act of seeking itself is a good thing. We should all seek to have an abundance of spiritual gifts for our own sakes, but more especially for the sake of the whole Church.

I think there are some valid objections to Pentecostalism’s “obsession” as it has been described in these threads. It is wrong to seek the gifts instead of the Giver. One can seek the Giver, and be open to any and all gifts that come.

I think many non-charismatics hold fast to some baseless idea that we should not seek charisms, and should even avoid them, due to a misunderstanding of the charisms.

Yes, and because of control issues. It is very hard to give up control and allow the HS to move spontaneously.

They are not extraordinary personal consolations - like visions, locutions etc. Those we shouldn't seek, and we should be very careful of them if they do occur. The charisms are different (though they may be accompanied by visions and locutions - especially prophecy). We should seek them, because they're meant to be sought. But more importantly, we should open ourselves up to and use what we have already been given through the sacraments.

I am not sure there is a difference between what St. Teresa describes as locutions and how the gift of prophesy operates. And I, for one, find praying in tongues very personally consoling. I object to the language of “gift seeking” because people so easily misunderstand it. I think it is better to talk about seeking the Giver, and being open to any and all gifts He wants to bring in and through us. It is opening ourselves up to what we have received in the Sacraments. In Baptism and Confirmation, the power lines are connected to the Source, and the wall switch is installed, and is “live”. However, some go through life with the wall switch off, or keep it on a very low dim for fear it may get out of control.

I also think many non-charismatics uphold this idea because they are uncomfortable with the idea of tongues, or prophecy, and a lot of Catholics have a knee-jerk reaction to discover that the Holy Spirit and His gifts are still around.

I must confess I was very surprised to hear Catholics espouse the Protestant heresy of cessation and dispensationalism.

While we should test them, St. Paul warns us that in esting them we should not quench the Spirit. The Church does not need to authenticate every single little manifestation of the Holy Spirit. That is ridiculous. If that is your attitude, then the charisms will be of little use to you. Certainly test them, certainly discern them, certainly submit to the authoritative discernment of the clergy - but to simply say “I won’t consider it good until it has been proven to be authentic” is somewhat senseless, and counter-productive.

But it does make sense and is productive to the extent that a person who demands this can effectively quench not only the Spirit in themselves, but how the Spirit is acting through others. When one takes this approach, one can maintain control and justifiy it to oneself. One need not yield to the Holy Spirit doing anything spontaneous, because it has not yet been “authenticated”. The work of the HS can then be subject to the person who is making up the vetting rule.

 

[guanophore]

You and Guanophore need to work out weather these gifts are sought or not…

Let me know what the conclusion is.

I think Varda made a very clear explanation of the attitude of seeking we are to have. Unlike yourself, Charismatics do not think it is our place to separate the HS from any and all Gifts He would like to give. When we seek to embrace all the HS wants to work in our lives, that includes the openness to HIs gifts. We do not seek them for themselves, but for the purpose of serving Him in His One Body, the Church. When St. Paul admonishes us to “earnestly seek the best gifts”, this is his context. Frivolity, showmanship, self aggrandizing and fakery are not appropriate.

I have a feeling that, no matter what conclusion Charismatics come to regarding the gifts of the HS, no conclusion will be relevant to you.

 

[guanophore]

This is SOP for miracles in the Catholic Church.

You mean, to assume it is not a miracle until it has been proved a miracle?

 

[vardaquinn]

I object to the language of “gift seeking” because people so easily misunderstand it. I think it is better to talk about seeking the Giver, and being open to any and all gifts He wants to bring in and through us. It is opening ourselves up to what we have received in the Sacraments. In Baptism and Confirmation, the power lines are connected to the Source, and the wall switch is installed, and is “live”. However, some go through life with the wall switch off, or keep it on a very low dim for fear it may get out of control.

Sure, yeah it definitely leads to confusion. In fact, nearly all of the objections we’ve witnessed against the CR have been straw mans, have you noticed? Seeking the Giver is what this is all about, of course. These gifts aid us and others in our quest for sanctity.

But because some of them, a good example is prayer tongues, require our full cooperation often they should be sought. Or rather, the use of them should be sought.

And I, for one, find praying in tongues very personally consoling. I object to the language of “gift seeking” because people so easily misunderstand it.

I usually don’t. Occasionally consolations may accompany it, but usually I don’t feel anything, I don’t have any emotional experience, I don’t feel like I’m praising God, and I don’t feel His presence so clearly. I get that other times, often in personal meditation, but not usually while I pray in tongues. Praying in tongues for me is usually pretty dry.

 

[SanAgustin]

You mean, to assume it is not a miracle until it has been proved a miracle?

Generally, yes. I know it’s the case with other phenomena, I don’t see why it wouldn’t apply to at least people claiming to be literally prophets.

 

[guanophore]

But because some of them, a good example is prayer tongues, require our full cooperation often they should be sought. **Or rather, the use of them should be sought. **

Yes, this is a very good perspective. The purpose of the gifts is for the building up of the Body. Seeking them toward that purpose is what we should all be about. It is not separate from seeking one’s vocation as a Christian. We are all to be constantly searching and available for how God wants to use us.

I usually don’t. Occasionally consolations may accompany it, but usually I don’t feel anything, I don’t have any emotional experience, I don’t feel like I’m praising God, and I don’t feel His presence so clearly. I get that other times, often in personal meditation, but not usually while I pray in tongues. Praying in tongues for me is usually pretty dry.

This is interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

[guanophore]

Generally, yes. I know it’s the case with other phenomena, I don’t see why it wouldn’t apply to at least people claiming to be literally prophets.

Yes, of course. But I don’t think it is so much a case of disbelief until proven. The Church begins from the point of view that God can, and does, perform miracles in this day and age, as He has always done. You seem to start from the point of view that these phenomena cannot be from God, as they no longer occur in this day and age. That is a bit different, don’t you think?

A person can receive a prophetic word without “claiming to be a literal prophet”. I think a person who has this gift function in them all the time might be considered a prophet, but
many times a person may receive only one prophetic disclosure from God, and not get another one. Some people have an occasional experience of a prophetic word, but it is intermittent and unpredictable.

You seem to want to apply this criteria to the person making the claim, but the testing is applied to the gift. Even an evil person can make an accurate prophetic pronouncement, as did the High priest who presided over Jesus’ trial. The gift may function validly even if the person is lacking in sanctity. God can speak through the mouth of a donkey, and I am sure we will agree that the donkey does not have sanctity.

 

[illusion_buster]

I object to the attitude that this member seems to have,

I appologize for that attitude. I thought after all these years that I had repented it but it took this forum and in particularly Irish 's comments to bring it again to the surface. Thankyou Irish… (I am not being sarcastic… I truelly believe the Holy Spirit has used you to do this as no other member could have hit the right buttons). The ‘attitude’ came from already knowing of Gods gifting of the charisms in this age and having nowhere (seemingly) within the CC structure in which to express them in a meaningful way. Remember, I was 7 and in the middle of the family rosary when I was infilled…(I did NOT ask for it… I did not LOOK of SEEK it as I didn’t know it existed still). Possibly I knew at the time, of the apostles experience at penticost because I had brothers & sisters going through confirmation at the time and me in my innocence, saw no reason it shouldn’t happen in the same way. It wasn’t until I was an adult that I had any contact with the penticostal movement. I remember being confused with WHY the manifestations of the Holy Spirit (remember I already knew them through experience), Why they were not demonstrated in the CC where I attended, or ANYwhere in general in the CC? When I made the comment implying “less full church pews” it was because in the 70’s when this outpouring seemed to cross boundries, there was no home within the CC for those with charismatic gifts and so, most went to where they thought (wrongly) the Holy Spirit was alive and well. I was NOT one of these, though I do NOT condemn them for their actions…It is very difficult to KNOW you have been given a gift from the Holy Spirit to be used for the good of the whole church and for (seemingly) that church to brand you as “lunies” “that lot” “them” “thosë people” as though one is no longer an acceptable part of the body. But the Holy Spirit had it all under control… Prayer meetings sprang up everywhere because we (who stayed) couldn’t keep in that which was an external expression of an infilling of the Holy Spirit. We did not consider those without the gift as lesser of less spiritual, but we could NOT denigh what the Holy Spirit had given us either… There SHOULD be a safe place to express such manifestations… And now there IS in most parishes… but the negitive attitudes still exist where they shouldn’t…If we can’t be confident and safe with what happens with-in the Holy Mass and our church walls, where CAN anyone be confident?? And one thing more… Irish! spontaneous means without expectation… It just happens… better it happens within church walls I say…

 

[guanophore]

And one thing more… Irish! spontaneous means without expectation… It just happens… better it happens within church walls I say…

I think this is the very thing that makes it so frightening. If one yields control to the HS, then one has to get off the throne - out of the drivers’ seat. This is very difficult, or impossible for some people. One reason that people are attracted to ritual is that it functions to contain fears.

 

[vardaquinn]

I think this is the very thing that makes it so frightening. If one yields control to the HS, then one has to get off the throne - out of the drivers’ seat. This is very difficult, or impossible for some people. One reason that people are attracted to ritual is that it functions to contain fears.

Indeed. I believe that may be the case with many “traditionalist” Catholics (not all certainly). They’re so emphasized on an over-ritualized spirituality (rituals are very good, don’t get me wrong, I’m only attacking the mentality). It lets one go through the motions.

In our modern society, we’re so emphasized on technology and method and technique. We want a “how to” for everything, a step by step sort of process. That doesn’t really work for sanctity though. There is no “how to” or buttons you can push. As St. Thomas Aquinas said, when asked how does one become a saint, “Will it”. Just do it.

 

[Convert91]

My unprofessional and person opinion only: I am a convert to the Catholic Faith and so very happy to be home… I have been in Pentecostal services during my Prodestant days, honestly I was uncomfortable then and still today. I tried the Charasmatic meetings and it was pretty much the same. I truly believe that people get very emotional saying and doing things based on emotions only. I do believe in the gifts of the spirit, I just can’t believe that anyone has a clue in these services. I do know that God is not the author of confusion and fear… There is so much confusion in these meetings. When I attend Mass and receive the Body and Blood of Christ, there is total peace and a feeling of completeness. Thank God for the Roman Catholic Church. Peace and Love to all…

 

[jwinch2]

My wife and I are currently visiting my family in Des Moines, IA and we decided to check out the local Cathedral since neither of us had been there previously, for mass this morning. First of all, the building itself is breathtakingly beautiful. It is absolutely fantastic. However, when we got there a bit early so that we could look around we saw the schedule and apparently the early mass is a charismatic one. I have never been to one but it didn’t really matter since the mid morning mass was the one we were attending and it was supposed to be a regular mass.

Well, apparently there are a number of people who missed the early mass and decided to turn the mid morning mass into a charismatic one as well. For example, we had a guy behind us who sang all the time when no one else was singing, proclaiming loud “hallelujah’s” after the creed and was trying to speak in tongues from time to time. It got particularly annoying during and post communion when there was music playing but no singing. Apparently this is an opportunity for him and a few others to go ahead and sing anyways. In addition, when others were singing this gentlemen and some others thought it was a great idea to alter the words to the song, make up their own harmonies, try to sing louder than everyone else,and all in all butcher the song in question. In addition, though all of the responses in mass were spoken today, he and a couple of others decided that they would sing all of them in varying melodies and rhythm.

I have no idea what a charismatic mass would be like other than the little bit I have watched on youtube. What the little taste I had today felt like was a cross between mass and the assembly of God church my father used to make me go to, combined with some very rude people who seemed to think the mass was about them being able to praise God the way they wanted to and to heck with anyone else.

I have generally defended the charismatic movement as I feel that there is room for a variety of traditions within the Church. However, if this is what it is like, I am starting to think differently. Obviously it is not fair to characterize an entire movement on the basis of a few people and one experience, so I will try to continue to keep an open mind.

 

[ltwin]

My wife and I are currently visiting my family in Des Moines, IA and we decided to check out the local Cathedral since neither of us had been there previously, for mass this morning. First of all, the building itself is breathtakingly beautiful. It is absolutely fantastic. However, when we got there a bit early so that we could look around we saw the schedule and apparently the early mass is a charismatic one. I have never been to one but it didn’t really matter since the mid morning mass was the one we were attending and it was supposed to be a regular mass.

Well, apparently there are a number of people who missed the early mass and decided to turn the mid morning mass into a charismatic one as well. For example, we had a guy behind us who sang all the time when no one else was singing, proclaiming loud “hallelujah’s” after the creed and was trying to speak in tongues from time to time. It got particularly annoying during and post communion when there was music playing but no singing. Apparently this is an opportunity for him and a few others to go ahead and sing anyways. In addition, when others were singing this gentlemen and some others thought it was a great idea to alter the words to the song, make up their own harmonies, try to sing louder than everyone else,and all in all butcher the song in question. In addition, though all of the responses in mass were spoken today, he and a couple of others decided that they would sing all of them in varying melodies and rhythm.

I have no idea what a charismatic mass would be like other than the little bit I have watched on youtube. What the little taste I had today felt like was a cross between mass and the assembly of God church my father used to make me go to, combined with some very rude people who seemed to think the mass was about them being able to praise God the way they wanted to and to heck with anyone else.

I have generally defended the charismatic movement as I feel that there is room for a variety of traditions within the Church. However, if this is what it is like, I am starting to think differently. Obviously it is not fair to characterize an entire movement on the basis of a few people and one experience, so I will try to continue to keep an open mind.

Maybe it wasn’t so much like charismatic masses in general and just the fact that the church you were in has some rude people going to it? I don’t know, I’ve only ever been to Protestant Pentecostal services so I wouldn’t know what its like.

Personally though, I think it is rude to speak, sing or pray in tongues so loudly that you disturb those around you. Even in a Pentecostal church, you should only ever do that loudly if everyone else is doing it to as an act of congregational worship or if you are supernaturally being used by God to deliver a message in tongues to the congregation.

 

[Indyann]

Maybe it wasn’t so much like charismatic masses in general and just the fact that the church you were in has some rude people going to it? I don’t know, I’ve only ever been to Protestant Pentecostal services so I wouldn’t know what its like.

Personally though, I think it is rude to speak, sing or pray in tongues so loudly that you disturb those around you. Even in a Pentecostal church, you should only ever do that loudly if everyone else is doing it to as an act of congregational worship or if you are supernaturally being used by God to deliver a message in tongues to the congregation.

Are you sure some of the “street people” just didn’t come in to stay warm?

I am serious, I have seen it before. And other, than being annoying, we should be happy they are there.

We never know how God’s grace works.

 

[jwinch2]

Are you sure some of the “street people” just didn’t come in to stay warm?

I am serious, I have seen it before. And other, than being annoying, we should be happy they are there.

We never know how God’s grace works.

No, they were not street people. Its a fair point, but I am quite sure they were regular parishioners.

Peace,

 

[ltwin]

Are you sure some of the “street people” just didn’t come in to stay warm?

I am serious, I have seen it before. And other, than being annoying, we should be happy they are there.

We never know how God’s grace works.

Not sure exactly what “street people” means, unless you are implying that “street people” automatically worship in charismatic fashion. Even as a Pentecostal I know better than to go to a liturgical church and start speaking in tongues during the liturgy. It’s called manners. No Pentecostal “street person” would speak in tongues in a Catholic service unless it was specifically a charismatic mass.

 

[jwinch2]

No, they were not street people. Its a fair point, but I am quite sure they were regular parishioners.

Peace,

Just as a follow up, they were well dressed, groomed appropriately, knew many people in the congregation, and I watched one of them, still singing and shaking his finger in people’s face out on the sidewalk, climb into a very nice car before finally leaving. Thus, I am as sure as I can be short of being very rude myself, that they were not “street people”.

 

[Indyann]

Not sure exactly what “street people” means, unless you are implying that “street people” automatically worship in charismatic fashion. Even as a Pentecostal I know better than to go to a liturgical church and start speaking in tongues during the liturgy. It’s called manners. No Pentecostal “street person” would speak in tongues in a Catholic service unless it was specifically a charismatic mass.

By “street people”, I was referring to those who live on the streets and are frequently mentally ill and/or addicted to some substance. Many prefer to live on the streets due to their mental instability.

I was not implying anything about Pentecostals, or any other group of people, other than street people or homeless.

Many mentally unstable people do not exhibit the best of “manners”.

 

[Indyann]

Just as a follow up, they were well dressed, groomed appropriately, knew many people in the congregation, and I watched one of them, still singing and shaking his finger in people’s face out on the sidewalk, climb into a very nice car before finally leaving. Thus, I am as sure as I can be short of being very rude myself, that they were not “street people”.

It seems you encountered a group of very rude people!

 

[ltwin]

By “street people”, I was referring to those who live on the streets and are frequently mentally ill and/or addicted to some substance. Many prefer to live on the streets due to their mental instability.

I was not implying anything about Pentecostals, or any other group of people, other than street people or homeless.

Many mentally unstable people do not exhibit the best of “manners”.

Ok sorry, I misunderstood you.