Thoughts on College and Rising Tuition?

[Usige]

I am of the mindset that the tuition structure, as it stands now, will be **drastically different **within 15 years. There is simply no way that this can continue, especially when the benefits keep dwindling. Years and years of double digit increases for tuition have achieved nothing for students or their parents. As another poster said, the living conditions for these kids are now beyond the means that my wife and I had five years out of school, well into our careers. All of this is fed by cheap $$ from the federal government, improperly distorting the education market.

Moreover, the technology to disburse information **cheaply and effectively **is there. Who needs to pay several THOUSAND dollars to hear one professor deliver 30 lectures over the course of one semester when you-tube, Kahn academy, etc. has similar content available for free? Or could be offered as a MOOC for less than a few hundred dollars. Simply put, the cost of information and its transmission is **one-hundredth **of what it was just ten years ago and yet the tuition is double.

With that said, I am sure the current educational system will hold on tight to the loose money policies of the government and fight any change. I simply don’t see how it can continue, however. ***Something has to give. *** There are simply not enough jobs that can pay back 100-200k in student loans in any reasonable period that makes any sense.

Yep. Look at how many people signed up for Georgia Tech’s online Masters Degree. I think you will see a lot more MOOCs in the future.

I think you will also see a number of industry partnerships also. I know there are a number of STEM middle school and high schools that are partially funded by telecom and aerospace companies. The university I went to now has a number of programs in partnership with Oracle and Cisco so that kids graduating with a BS CS also end up with network or database certs. I think you will see more of this type of hybrid education pushed down to associate and high school programs over the next 5 - 15 years.

 

[grasscutter]

You just have to decide what kind of work you want to do, what will keep you stimulated and happy in your job long-term. Some people are suited to work with their hands, and some with their minds. My husband is an attorney, so he has a doctorate-level education. I don’t think he would have been as satisfied as a mechanic or roofer. It would not have been a good use of his gifts. And yep, we took out a LOT of loan money to pay for his education.

I’ve recently started my pre-apprenticeship education at my local college in HVACR, with a view to (in four years) obtaining my Red Seal Certificate. One of the reasons I chose this particular trade is the amount of work that is done with the mind as well as the hands. It is a “thinking trade”, as are many others.

Also, there is a shortage of educated, qualified people and it pays well.

I just don’t think that we should stereotype trades as being for the non-intellectual. And, there is a huge difference between (in terms of education and qualifications - if the mechanic has an actual TQ) a mechanic and a roofer.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes!

My opinion of college: Go there so you can get a job when you graduate. Do it with academics, activities, and network your way into a job.

The idea that college is for anything but job training is not realistic anymore. You have four years, to focus on that one goal: employment.

Unless 1) your family is quite well off and 2) you can go to school debt free.

It’s OK to graduate with a degree in something esoteric with no debt. To graduate with a starving artist degree (like the MFA) but with substantial debt is the sort of thing that could cripple one financially and personally for decades to come.

 

[freeRadical]

My thoughts on college: Young adults are basically forced to go to college to get a decent job now.

My thoughts on rising tuition cost: The main contributor to rising tuition costs is government subsidization of secondary education.

It’s a racket, a government supported racket.

 

[Cat]

My thoughts on college: Young adults are basically forced to go to college to get a decent job now.

My thoughts on rising tuition cost: The main contributor to rising tuition costs is government subsidization of secondary education.

It’s a racket, a government supported racket.

So until the racket is busted up, what do you think all the young adults (and others) should do with college?

 

[freeRadical]

So until the racket is busted up, what do you think all the young adults (and others) should do with college?

I guess they are going to just have to bite the bullet until then.

The first step would be to get the government out of the business of subsidizing college education.

 

[ProVobis]

Here’s something to think about when you are telling your child to forget about majoring in something that won’t lead to a “job” and instead, go to trade school and learn welding.

Last night, I was at a organ meeting (pipe organ), and the entertainment was provided by a lovely young woman who played the cello while accompanied by the pipe organ. Beautiful music!

I’ve known her since she was little, and so I chatted with her about her college and career plans. She just completed a B.A. in Classics (Greek, Latin, ancient history, etc.), and is planning to go to grad school in England to pursue her Master’s Degree in Classics.

Classics. Wow, it’s like something out of Downton Abbey! Just think of all the job openings! (Not!).

Of course, it helps to know that the girl is the only daughter of a doctor who makes a comfortable (actually, more than comfortable) income, and has no trouble paying the bills for his daughter’s college and grad school.

But here’s the thing, everyone. When I was talking with my husband later (we were back home, not where anyone would overhear us), I realized that for us Catholics, SOMEONE had better be studying “classics.”

If the only people who study “classics” are rich kids who really aren’t interested in religion at all, especially Catholicism, then surely liberalism and godlessness will begin to “creep into” the “classics,” and this will eventually filter into Catholicism and erode it. We have God’s promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, but we all know from experience that Hell’s citizens can do a lot of damage while they’re battling to prevail. Not pleasant for our children and children’s children.

Think about it. All the current Catholic experts on “classics” (Greek, Latin, etc.) are experts in a “Catholics” mindset. They approach the ancient languages, cultures, histories, etc. with a Catholic point of view, and when they write about “classical studies,” they take the Catholic church into account.

But those who are not Catholic will not do this. They’ll find all kinds of “proofs” that various sinful practices are superior to Christianity. Or they’ll write historical novels featuring sinful people as the heroes.

So as I said, SOMEONE has to study this stuff if we want the Church to continue to have accurate teachings.

And perhaps that “someone” will be YOUR son or daughter! And of course, you will have a cow wondering what on earth your child will do with a degree in “classics!” But think about the Church without a solid grounding in “classics”.

Maybe we all need to trust the Lord a little more. I can certainly see a parent requiring a child majoring in “classics” to first earn a certificate in some very practical skilled field (like welding) so they can support themselves and a family. But I hope that Catholic parents will realize that God needs scholars and philosophers as well as plumbers and welders.

Cat, I’m glad you posted this. I experience this pretty much in the 60’s. I attended a Catholic high school where the students pretty much whined about the necessity of taking Latin and a bunch of other things. When I attended the University of Illinois later, I found the climate to be much different. There were actually people, a lot of young ladies especially, who were very passionate about classics. And it didn’t even involve the Catholic Church. Though it might not have helped me in physics when I did research later, it nevertheless did help me in a lot of other areas. I ended up after 4 years in the lab, in computer programming, which paid most, if not all my bills. And I had not a single course in IT.

And oh yeah, the companies I worked for footed my bills (tuition) for graduate work in business at a Benedictine University.

 

[adawgj]

I’m glad I chose to attend a community college first it is saving me a lot of money. Unlike some of my friends who already have to pay thousands of dollars for general education.

Whoever posted about the Classics major

While I’m a history major and thinking about having a second major I wish it was classics, but I want to leave my mark in a science

But don’t worry if God wills me to be a priest then Latin and Greek will be waiting at my door.

 

[Starrsmother]

It’s all really a set up. I’m a nurse practitioner and nurse midwife so obviously I’d have had to go to college–I get that. But the first two years I went I took English writing, history and many other courses that had ZERO to do with my major. They talk about rising health care costs being at least partially due to what it costs to come out of college as a doctor and that’s true. However, about half the courses they have to take–about half the courses I took–did nothing to make me a better provider–history teacher maybe, Medical provider, NO!

 

[hwriggles4]

Another option most (?) people don’t consider is military service…you are paid, rather well, to learn and use skills that translate into good civilian jobs…earning college credits - even a degree - is encouraged while you serve, and when you separate from active duty, you have a college fund available.

Boldygo:

Thank you for saying this. I started back at college at 25 years of age, not long after Operation Desert Storm ended. In my transfer group, I was one of the only non-veterans (we were engineering majors) who did not have military service, but I had worked (and was continuing work) as an EMT, so many of the veterans treated me like I was one of them. The majority of these veterans were reservists whose units were activated and these guys had to leave school for at least a semester.

I encourage men (ladies, women are more mature at 18 than men) that is a good idea to make a little bit of money first and think about what you want to do with your life before starting college. If I could start college from scratch again, I would do it as a 21 or 22 year old freshman, and not a naive 18 year old freshmen (at least at a 4 year college). A 21 or 22 year old who has spent a little bit of time working or in the military will usually take school more seriously. Several people I knew who paid their own way and were older took school more seriously too, particularly the guy who dropped out the first time at 19 or 20 due to too much goofing off (can you say, been there, done that, brought the t-shirt).

The military you can get a GI Bill, and a few years of experience in some field before going to college. After college, I have a few friends who got their medical school or law school paid for by the military, in exchange for 2 years of service per one year in school (i.e. most JAG officers who go this way have a 6 year obligation, while most doctors who did this have an 8 year commitment after internship).

 

[hwriggles4]

Here’s some good jobs that pay well that don’t require a B.A. in something:

1. Welders
2. Bricklayers
3. HVAC Repairman (particularly in a place like Houston or Dallas during the summer)
4. Plumbers
5. Fire sprinkler or Fire Alarm installer and/or designer
6. Draftsman
7. Lab technicians at refineries (good place to work: Houston)
8. Electrician or Electronics Technician
9. Some secretarial jobs
10. Some computer programming jobs

If you are willing to work outside and don’t like working at a desk, construction related jobs like HVAC, welding, bricklaying, plumber, fire sprinkler or fire alarm installer, and electrician aren’t bad places. You may have to start out small (it’s not as easy as it looks, and there is some studying involved, particularly for electricians), maybe as a plumber’s helper or something, but as you gain experience and follow the certification processes, one will do fairly well. Some of these jobs require some education (like a draftsman, electrician,or an HVAC repairman) and certain licenses after a period of time (like fire sprinkler or fire alarm), but the education can be obtained at several junior colleges or trade schools.

I’ve worked in the fire sprinkler industry and there are several good people in this business who do not have a B.A. in something, but they have worked hard, got field experience and design experience, plus studied for their licenses and certificates. The pay is pretty good after gaining a few years of experience, and someone will always need you.

Why do I put “some secretarial work” here? Well, I’ve been around enough offices to know that there are some secretaries that know more than their bosses. Some are indispensible that their bosses will pay them well too. Sure, it takes a while to get some experience, (i.e. you won’t be making 50K at 21 or 22). By the way, I used to date a secretary (no, we did not meet at work), and she was very bright. She even told me that some men passed her up for dates because she didn’t have a B.A. in something - these men really missed the opportunity to meet a neat person.

Throughout my life, I’ve known some bright people whose highest level of education was a high school diploma, and I’ve also met some PhD’s and a few people with Master’s Degrees who seemed like they just studied the night before to pass their exams and then forgot everything a week later.

Down from the box now.

 

[kmmb_68]

…Even though they are economically a much more sound investment, most people view trade schools as places stupid people go, whereas 4-year colleges are seen as prestigious places of real learning…

I have to say, I didn’t even read any of the responses here, but just my 2 cents worth (is there an abbreviation for that?) to the OP. Get over the hump of thinking that “real learning” takes place at 4 year colleges vs. 2 year, or technical colleges–times have changed in just the last generation. Ignore the stigma and go for logic and common sense. That “real learning” from four year institutions is essentially just two more years of general studies before you get to the actual classes that directly help you in your field. Not to discount the general studies, they help you with things like improving your critical thinking skills, problem solving skills, and general knowledge. But these days, since a bachelor’s degree costs so much that students have to go into debt so far that they may take 10-20 years to ever be able to pay it off, bachelor’s degrees, or higher (masters and doctorates) should only be pursued if they are in a relatively high paying field otherwise it’s a lifelong financial regret/blunder.

 

[Xantippe]

I have to say, I didn’t even read any of the responses here, but just my 2 cents worth (is there an abbreviation for that?) to the OP. Get over the hump of thinking that “real learning” takes place at 4 year colleges vs. 2 year, or technical colleges–times have changed in just the last generation. Ignore the stigma and go for logic and common sense. That “real learning” from four year institutions is essentially just two more years of general studies before you get to the actual classes that directly help you in your field. Not to discount the general studies, they help you with things like improving your critical thinking skills, problem solving skills, and general knowledge. But these days, since a bachelor’s degree costs so much that students have to go into debt so far that they may take 10-20 years to ever be able to pay it off, bachelor’s degrees, or higher (masters and doctorates) should only be pursued if they are in a relatively high paying field otherwise it’s a lifelong financial regret/blunder.

1. There are a lot of shady trade schools that make big promises about future employment and wages but don’t deliver, but just milk students for tuition. Some of the culinary schools are outrageous for the salaries their graduates are headed toward.

nytimes.com/2007/05/08/us/08default.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

1. A lot of people benefit from the writing practice they get in college, but it’s true that that can be inexpensively obtained at community colleges. We all know (from being on the internet) how bad it looks to have shaky spelling, capitalization, punctuation, grammar, lapses into text speak, etc. It really does take a lot of effort to polish up writing skills and be able to communicate professionally in print. (A lot of people sound OK orally but are semi-literate in electronic communication–that’s very limiting to one’s future career.)
2. The average undergraduate student debt is about the price of a car. So, it should not take 10-20 years to pay it off. The horror stories ($100k at NYU for a liberal arts undergraduate degree) are real, but they are outliers and those situations are totally preventable with a little financial savvy and planning. $20k or $30k in debt isn’t a joke, but it’s also not insurmountable for a healthy single young person who can easily take on a second job and plow through it.
3. Nobody should borrow for a doctorate. The good news is that if you are a good student, you can get a doctorate for free by TA-ing, working as a research assistant and getting fellowships. If you don’t get that kind of funding, your doctoral program 1) isn’t that good or 2) doesn’t have faith that you are placeable upon graduation. Either way, keep on walking. MA programs, on the other hand, need to be approached with a lot of caution, because they are often cash cows for the colleges.

 

[Patavium]

I have to say, I didn’t even read any of the responses here, but just my 2 cents worth (is there an abbreviation for that?) to the OP. Get over the hump of thinking that “real learning” takes place at 4 year colleges vs. 2 year, or technical colleges–times have changed in just the last generation. Ignore the stigma and go for logic and common sense. That “real learning” from four year institutions is essentially just two more years of general studies before you get to the actual classes that directly help you in your field. Not to discount the general studies, they help you with things like improving your critical thinking skills, problem solving skills, and general knowledge. But these days, since a bachelor’s degree costs so much that students have to go into debt so far that they may take 10-20 years to ever be able to pay it off, bachelor’s degrees, or higher (masters and doctorates) should only be pursued if they are in a relatively high paying field otherwise it’s a lifelong financial regret/blunder.

In STEM fields, it is quite common for the Master’s and PhD to be paid by the University. It shouldn’t cost you at all. Don’t take a Master’s or PhD, if you’re paying for it unless you have a high paying job guaranteed, which is doubtful.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

A story of a friend who I met after he went independent: when he graduated from high school, he knew up front that he wasn’t cut out for college at all. Instead he apprenticed himself as a plumber’s helper, then progressed through different kinds of plumbing jobs, commercial install & repair, residential install & repair, new home construction, union shops, etc. Did this all through his 20’s and at 31, he bought his own truck and went independent, contracting himself out for whoever could pay him and sometimes subcontracting work to other independents if the job was too big for him. When I met him, he was 36, drove a beautiful new Mustang and made more money than I did.

An anecdote, yes, but just showing what is possible for a man with no college education who is willing to work his rear end off when learning a trade and networking along the way.

Loans about the size of moderately priced car are one thing, but anything beyond that is nothing more than a stupid financial decision for all except the most lucrative STEM majors.

The real problem is that as the available credit rises to pay the bills, so the costs rise to meet the amount of credit available to pay them. Wonder how so many colleges took on Taj Mahal-like building projects? I’m told I won’t recognize half my old college campus anymore, for instance. Add to this mess the government guarantees and the inability to discharge the debt in bankruptcy, and you have two extremely happy campers, the bankers and the college administrators cavorting about at the expense of the student.

That which can’t last … won’t last, there will be a lot of market pressure on the colleges and it will take years to play out, but play out it will. Unfortunately that’s not much help those who are stuck in the mill or are about to be.

 

[Xantippe]

Loans about the size of moderately priced car are one thing, but anything beyond that is nothing more than a stupid financial decision for all except the most lucrative STEM majors.

**Ideally, I’d like my kids to avoid any student loans at all (and I think we’ll manage), but for young adults less fortunately situated, the rule of thumb I would suggest is total undergraduate debt no bigger than 50% of expected annual income upon graduation, i.e. Zzyzx Road’s “moderately priced car”.
**

The real problem is that as the available credit rises to pay the bills, so the costs rise to meet the amount of credit available to pay them.

**And there’s also the whole phenomenon of going to school in order to live on student loans, which (except under the most horrific circumstances) is a terrible, terrible idea and yet quite common. When I was in college, it was simply unthinkable–you might borrow to cover tuition, but you’d never borrow living expenses. There’s been a tremendous increase in expected standard of living for undergraduates. There’s now no expectation that a middle class kid will have a drop in standard of living while in college.
**

Wonder how so many colleges took on Taj Mahal-like building projects? I’m told I won’t recognize half my old college campus anymore, for instance. Add to this mess the government guarantees and the inability to discharge the debt in bankruptcy, and you have two extremely happy campers, the bankers and the college administrators cavorting about at the expense of the student.

**Part of the reason for the building projects is that big donors don’t want to fund a 10% decrease in tuition for five years–they’d like a big, shiny building with their names on it.

Plus, to be honest, a lot of the old building really were kind of terrible.

Also, when there’s a college tour, do they do a tour of the most brilliant minds on campus? Nope, they show off the climbing wall and the pool.
**

 

[Secant]

Tell your kids from day one (first grade or so) that they won’t have help paying for college. If they want to go, they will have to pay for it. My parents did this with me and I worked hard from first grade on to have the GPA, the test scores, the activities, and the community service to get scholarships. By the time I graduated high school, I had so many scholarships that I had to decline most of them and only accept one (a full ride to the university on a STEM major).

Also suggest to them that they choose a career based on a combination of what they like and what makes money. I.E. they like archeology, but it has little money making potential. Investigate and discover that chemical engineers make new solutions for archeologists to better preserve their findings. Suggest chemical engineering as a better solution. They can still work with archeologists if the need and economy is there, but they have a profession with a 98% chance of a job post college, even if it is not a dream job. They can always get experience first and get a better job down the line.

Beware of two year schools, not only are they less likely to transfer credits properly, but not all majors need the same courses. In my university, if you went to a two year school and wanted an engineering degree, it would take four years at the university to get the degree anyway, leading to six years of college, no time or money saved whatsoever.

 

[Xantippe]

Tell your kids from day one (first grade or so) that they won’t have help paying for college. If they want to go, they will have to pay for it. My parents did this with me and I worked hard from first grade on to have the GPA, the test scores, the activities, and the community service to get scholarships. By the time I graduated high school, I had so many scholarships that I had to decline most of them and only accept one (a full ride to the university on a STEM major).

**Your kids’ financial aid package will be based on your income. If you are a high earner but don’t plan to contribute a dime, they will be penalized heavily in the financial aid process–the package they will be offered will be smaller because you make a lot of money.

You would fill out a FAFSA, I hope?

I also got what amounted to a full ride for three of my four years of college, but that was largely because I was blessed with poor parents (they got better off as I went through college). Likewise, my husband had very low college expenses being from outside the US. It would be a very big mistake if we expected our kids’ college to be as inexpensive as ours was. Plus, everything’s more expensive than it used to be.
**

 

[Secant]

The scholarships I’m talking about don’t have a thing to do with your FAFSA scores. They are academic only scholarships. This wasn’t one I got, but the American Legion gives a lot of money to good orators and doesn’t ask income questions. There are so many more out there with almost no competition. The only reason I filled out the FAFSA every year was because my college required it. My three parents (good old divorce…not) made $60K between the three of them and I didn’t qualify for anything except loans. I mean spending your childhood focusing on academic scholarships and you are likely to get them. My college debt was zero, with no help from my parents or “financial aid institutions” that look at family income. And college tuition is $100/semester higher than when I graduated at my alma mater. If you are smart about it, college does not need to be a major expense at all.

 

[Xantippe]

The scholarships I’m talking about don’t have a thing to do with your FAFSA scores. They are academic only scholarships. This wasn’t one I got, but the American Legion gives a lot of money to good orators and doesn’t ask income questions. There are so many more out there with almost no competition. The only reason I filled out the FAFSA every year was because my college required it. My three parents (good old divorce…not) made $60K between the three of them and I didn’t qualify for anything except loans. I mean spending your childhood focusing on academic scholarships and you are likely to get them. My college debt was zero, with no help from my parents or “financial aid institutions” that look at family income. And college tuition is $100/semester higher than when I graduated at my alma mater. If you are smart about it, college does not need to be a major expense at all.

This is a somewhat rude question, but if you make a good income, what will you spend all your piles of money on if not on your kids’ education?

I’m six years from D-Day on college for the oldest right now, but my current plan is:

1. no more than four years of support
2. help from us equal to costs at our flagship state university
3. they work as is reasonable for their majors
4. reasonable morals and behavior
5. a requirement that they work on a “young adult fund” and save $100 a month toward it during college.