Thoughts on "faith alone" - I welcome your responses

[shagenbarth]

Dear Return to Rome,

I have not read through all of the posts in this thread, but am suggesting to all interested, to pick up any books by Scott Hahn. He was a devout, anti-Catholic for most of his life, and an ordained pastor within the Protestant Church. Both he, and his wife converted after a long, arduous and at times, painful journey. His books are succinct, and he fully understands both the Catholic and Protestant position. He is a scholar and is able to explain his journey in rational, biblical and historical terms.

Hope this helps!

My prayers to you and yours,

S.

 

[gtrenewed]

The liberty in the Christian life that Paul taught is based on the foundation that we are saved, born again, and have eternal life. From this foundation we add works over the course of our life upon that foundation, good and bad, as we grow spiritually.

The foundation is Jesus. Not Jesus plus something else. For by grace are we saved, through faith, not by our works. Paul preached the cross and resurrection as the foundation.

We profess our faith in Jesus and we are saved. Then we add water baptism to that foundation, we add Holy Spirit baptism to that foundation, we add good works towards the brethren and others, and so on and so on until we go to be with Jesus and receive our rewards. Salvation, eternal life is not a reward, it is a free gift. Reward suggests work and salvation is not a work of ours but a free gift from God.

There comes confusion when we say “faith alone” because that means different things to different people. The biggest problem comes from human reasoning that has a problem with someone believing the Gospel and all of a sudden they have eternal life. Human reasoning searches out ways to deny the simplicity of entering not realizing the spiritual war it took to come to that point.

To all you religious people - let go and let God. God has provided the way as a free gift, receive it! There will be plenty to do in persevering unto the end!

 

[Nine_Two]

The liberty in the Christian life that Paul taught is based on the foundation that we are saved, born again, and have eternal life. From this foundation we add works over the course of our life upon that foundation, good and bad, as we grow spiritually.

The foundation is Jesus. Not Jesus plus something else. For by grace are we saved, through faith, not by our works. Paul preached the cross and resurrection as the foundation.

We profess our faith in Jesus and we are saved. Then we add water baptism to that foundation, we add Holy Spirit baptism to that foundation, we add good works towards the brethren and others, and so on and so on until we go to be with Jesus and receive our rewards. Salvation, eternal life is not a reward, it is a free gift. Reward suggests work and salvation is not a work of ours but a free gift from God.

There comes confusion when we say “faith alone” because that means different things to different people. The biggest problem comes from human reasoning that has a problem with someone believing the Gospel and all of a sudden they have eternal life. Human reasoning searches out ways to deny the simplicity of entering not realizing the spiritual war it took to come to that point.

To all you religious people - let go and let God. God has provided the way as a free gift, receive it! There will be plenty to do in persevering unto the end!

Interesting post.

I’m curious, what is your religious tradition? I’m asking this because I haven’t heard that take on the whole faith vs. works debate before and I’m wondering what its history is?

 

[bearcat101]

If I may, I’d like to weight in here. When we have faith in someone, we do as they ask correct? Having faith in Christ isn’t just merely believing in him. Scripture says that even the demons believe and they shudder. Having a building and growing faith in Christ has manifested the ability in me to do good works. These are moreso from Jesus than they are from my own will. Ultimately, it is God’s grace that saves us, not our good works. It’s just like looking at a forest fire. It always contains fire and smoke, but it is the fire that burns the trees, not the smoke; even though the smoke is always present.

 

[4thelamb]

Faith alone is a contradiction in terms…

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” - James 2.20.

I find it hard to believe anyone could comprehend faith “alone”; it would be like comprehending morality without moral deeds; or goodness without good actions.

Because we are saved by grace, our love for our Savior produces the good works of our hearts. Works are not stepping stones to our salvation but rather good deeds are the automatic desires of our hearts to do what Christ commands of us. Which is to love the Lord God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And to love our neighbor as ourselves. In doing this we will automatically bear the fruits of righteousness. Doing everything for the glory of the Lord. In all things being imitators of Christ. But our salvation is found in Christ Jesus alone. Our saving grace is the mercy of the Father, not our own works.

 

[gtrenewed]

Interesting post.

I’m curious, what is your religious tradition? I’m asking this because I haven’t heard that take on the whole faith vs. works debate before and I’m wondering what its history is?

I am a Christian who has experienced many denominations including RCC. As far as works vs faith is concerned I grew weary of all the doctrines that seemed to place a yoke of burden and doubt upon the believer when I read in Scripture about liberty and freedom.

When I consider the price Jesus paid, I ask myself, why would that be necessary if I can work my way to eternal life? It makes sense to me that it was done so I could be secure in salvation outside of my own ability. Paul attests to this fact.

So I have developed this understanding over time through the prayerful study of Scripture. Some I have heard from various teachers and some I have refined their teaching. It is growing in the spirit as Jesus, Peter, John and Paul teaches.

 

[Third_Day]

=4thelamb;7077214]Because we are saved by grace, our love for our Savior produces the good works of our hearts Works are not stepping stones to our salvation but rather good deeds **are the automatic **desires of our hearts to do what Christ commands of us

.Once you are forever “saved” do good works automatically flow and continue without stopping? What happens if you are “saved” and you backslide and committ adultery, are you still saved without confessing and repenting of that adultery?

Our saving grace is the mercy of the Father, not our own works.

A Christian that does good works is not doing his “own” works. They are works of God’s grace. That is why works of grace are necessary for salvation. We are cooperating with God’s grace. That is why James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. James is talking about works of grace not works done apart from God.

 

[Third_Day]

=gtrenewed;7077366]I am a Christian who has experienced many denominations including RCC. As far as works vs faith is concerned I grew weary of all the doctrines that seemed to place a yoke of burden and doubt upon the believer when I read in Scripture about liberty and freedom.

What do you mean by "liberty and freedom?’

When I consider the price Jesus paid, I ask myself, why would that be necessary if I can work my way to eternal life?

You can’t “work” your way to eternal life without God’s grace. THe works we are called to do are works of grace

It makes sense to me that it was done so I could be secure in salvation outside of my own ability.

Are you secure in your salvation if you were to commit adultery?

Paul attests to this fact.

Paul didn’t believe in assurance of salvation

1 Cor: 9:27:
No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be reprobate.

1 Cor. 10:1-14:
We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. We should not test the Lord, as some of them did….These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!

So I have developed this understanding over time through the prayerful study of Scripture. Some I have heard from various teachers and some I have refined their teaching. It is growing in the spirit as **Jesus, Peter, John and Paul **teaches.

Where does Jesus say you have assurance of salvation?
Matt 19:16
Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, **what good thing must I do **to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only one who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

Where does Peter say we have assurance of salvation?
1 Pet 1:14- 17
As obedient children do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance but as he who called you is holy be holy yourselves in all your conduct since it is written, “You shall all be holy, for I am holy.”And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.”

Where does John say we have assurance of salvation?

1 John 3:6-9
No one who lives **in him **keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him…. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil…No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God

Where does Paul teach assurance of salvation?
1 Tim 2:15:
But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in **faith, love **and holiness with propriety

 

[ReturningToRome]

Because we are saved by grace, our love for our Savior produces the good works of our hearts. Works are not stepping stones to our salvation but rather good deeds are the automatic desires of our hearts to do what Christ commands of us. Which is to love the Lord God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And to love our neighbor as ourselves. In doing this we will automatically bear the fruits of righteousness. Doing everything for the glory of the Lord. In all things being imitators of Christ. But our salvation is found in Christ Jesus alone. Our saving grace is the mercy of the Father, not our own works.

In heaven I’m sure this will be my experience, and hopefully I will grow in what you describe, but I would have to say that very little is “automatic” for me. Our saving grace comes from the Father’s mercy through Christ alone, but I’m certainly involved, and it’s often a struggle.
Thanks for your thoughts!
John

 

[JonNC]

=Third Day;7078005].Once you are forever “saved” do good works automatically flow and continue without stopping? What happens if you are “saved” and you backslide and committ adultery, are you still saved without confessing and repenting of that adultery?

Speaking for me, and not gtrenewed.
Repeated, unrepented sin can and will drive us away from faith. Christ instituted confession/absolution in order that we have a way to return to Him. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, God who is faithful and just, will forgive our sins and cleanse us from al unrighteousness.”

A Christian that does good works is not doing his “own” works. They are works of God’s grace. That is why works of grace are necessary for salvation. We are cooperating with God’s grace. That is why James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. James is talking about works of grace not works done apart from God.

Agreed.

Jon

 

[gtrenewed]

What do you mean by "liberty and freedom?’

Gal 5:1 “It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.”

It is not about our works but what Jesus did for us. Because of this we are motivated to be a maturing disciple.

Where does Jesus say you have assurance of salvation?

John 14:2 “In my Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.”

Where does Peter say we have assurance of salvation?

1Peter 1:23 “for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is through the living and enduring word of God.”

Where does John say we have assurance of salvation?

1John 5:13 “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Where does Paul teach assurance of salvation?

Romans 10:9 “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;”

 

[Craig_W]

!

I believe you have this backward. It is through Jesus Christ that we receive the grace of faith when we hear his gospel proclaimed by the Church. “Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.”
(Romans 10:17)

[/QUOTE]

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

!

Greetings Craig W; and may God bless you; what you have stated here, only confirms what I have stated. The catechumen comes to believe in Christ by the Hearing and hearing of the Word of God. This instills faith from the yearning of soul that seeketh God. The soul is quenched after recieving the waters of baptism. Prior to this “Faith” is all the unbeliever needs to enter into the baptismal waters. The Catholic Church is here to dispense her God given Rite upon those who believe so that God may part Grace upon the believer;

2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power.
4
Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.

Peace be with you

 

[Pitcharan]

Are my thoughts here faithful to Catholic teaching? I welcome your response. Thanks!
… Yes, it is necessary; it is God’s work in us and God’s plan in saving us, all by God’s grace, but not without our effort and cooperation. All glory goes to God, but we are active participants. It’s the way of salvation and the pathway to heaven.

I share below some original thoughts which I believe, are not really contrary to other christian / catholic beliefs, though different. However, I have run into rough weather with many catholics and non-catholics, when I shared these views on other threads. If only readers would look at it without colored glasses, they will realise that all the present schools, viz., faith, works and faith+works, will converge in what I am saying:

1. Faith is belief in truth in the absence of tangible evidence by virtue of spiritual vision; the vision is a reward of humility. Thus faith is gained through humility and other good works of love. On the other hand, pride renders a person spiritually blind and he/she cannot believe even when there is great tangible evidence, as in the case of some Jews who rejected Jesus despite great miracles. When faith involves a long wait, it is called hope.
2. Grace is the ability to abide in God’s way and keep His commandments. We receive Grace from God as a reward for gratitude, which is reciprocal love. Adam and Eve felt no gratitude for all the bounties received and hence had no Grace to keep His single command. Many Israelites in the Desrert of Sin, were ungrateful even after being rescued from cruel slavery and provided with water, manna and quails in the wilderness. That is why they had no Grace to keep God’s command and perished in their sins.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. (1Cor 13:13)

 

[Craig_W]

, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.

Peace be with you

Thank you Gabriel. We are in complete agreement.

God bless you
Craig

 

[gtrenewed]

I share below some original thoughts which I believe, are not really contrary to other christian / catholic beliefs, though different. However, I have run into rough weather with many catholics and non-catholics, when I shared these views on other threads. If only readers would look at it without colored glasses, they will realise that all the present schools, viz., faith, works and faith+works, will converge in what I am saying:

1. Faith is belief in truth in the absence of tangible evidence by virtue of spiritual vision; the vision is a reward of humility. Thus faith is gained through humility and other good works of love. On the other hand, pride renders a person spiritually blind and he/she cannot believe even when there is great tangible evidence, as in the case of some Jews who rejected Jesus despite great miracles. When faith involves a long wait, it is called hope.

I can see why others may have a problem with your definitions. It is better to understand scriptural definitions than paraphrase. Let’s look at faith - “the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen” and it comes as a free gift, not by our works and it comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. These are found in scripture.

You are right on concerning pride.

Whether short or long, hope is part of faith.

1. Grace is the ability to abide in God’s way and keep His commandments. We receive Grace from God as a reward for gratitude, which is reciprocal love. Adam and Eve felt no gratitude for all the bounties received and hence had no Grace to keep His single command. Many Israelites in the Desrert of Sin, were ungrateful even after being rescued from cruel slavery and provided with water, manna and quails in the wilderness. That is why they had no Grace to keep God’s command and perished in their sins.

Scripture says that in both cases it was unbelief in God’s word that led to disobedience. Certainly, gratitude is a part of our relationship but grace is God’s unmerited favor so it is a free gift not a reward.

 

[guanophore]

I share below some original thoughts which I believe, are not really contrary to other christian / catholic beliefs, though different.

They may not seem contrary to you, but they are not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught, so in that sense of being “different” they constitute “a different gospel” than the one we have received from the Apostles.

However, I have run into rough weather with many catholics and non-catholics, when I shared these views on other threads. If only readers would look at it without colored glasses, they will realise that all the present schools, viz., faith, works and faith+works, will converge in what I am saying:

Catholics are not at liberty to do this, Pitch. We have received our “colored glasses” from the Apostles in the form of Sacred Tradition, which means that our interpretation of things must be consistent with the One Faith we received.

1. **Faith is belief in truth in the absence of tangible evidence by virtue of spiritual vision**; the vision is a reward of humility.

I have read your proposition on other threads, and I do agree with your premise that God gives grace to the humble. It sounds strange to say that it is a “reward”, but I think I understand this in the sense that a soul that is properly disposed is able to be more receptive of spiritual gifts.

However, some receive faith in spite of being prideful, so it does not explain the entire picture.

Thus faith is gained through humility and other good works of love.

Yes, we can exercise our faith through humility and good works, and when we exercise it, it grows. However, this is also not the only way that a person gains or grows in faith. Our faith is strengthened by other things as well, and some of those factors have nothing to do with what we do, or don’t do. Grace kindles our faith, and while we are yet sinners, He poured out His grace upon us. We gain the faith to be saved as a free gift (not of works, lest any of us should boast).

On the other hand, pride renders a person spiritually blind and he/she cannot believe even when there is great tangible evidence, as in the case of some Jews who rejected Jesus despite great miracles. When faith involves a long wait, it is called hope.

Yes, but God is clearly able to supernaturally manifest himself to the prideful, in spite of their blindess, they are made to “see” him, and sometimes are able to experience humility. Despite his efforts, Pharoah did not seem to be one of them.

2. **Grace is the ability to abide in God's way and keep His commandments**.

While we are able to have the obedience of faith by means of Grace, this is not the only way to define grace. Grace (His unmerited favor) is what provides the opportunity to partake of His Divine Nature. But we access Grace by faith. Grace is poured out to all. It is still present, though persons who don’t receive it do not have the ability to abide in Him.

We receive Grace from God as a reward for gratitude, which is reciprocal love.

The problem with this is that it contradicts the Holy Scriptures. The Scriptures are clear that we only love Him because He first loved us. They are also clear that God’s grace was poured out through His Son on the cross “while we were yet sinners”. There is nothing we can do to “earn” grace, and we can 't have the ability to be grateful for what He has done before we receive Grace.

 

[Pitcharan]

…Scripture says that in both cases it was unbelief in God’s word that led to disobedience. Certainly, gratitude is a part of our relationship but grace is God’s unmerited favor so it is a free gift not a reward.

Scripture also says that ingratitude led to disobedience: *“For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened” *(Rom 1:21)

In fact, this is how unbelief led to disobedience in Eve’s case: Ingratitude enabled Satan to inject pride, which in turn blinded her. The blind Eve lost faith in God and listened to Satan after rejecting God’s warning.

 

[Pitcharan]

…The problem with this is that it contradicts the Holy Scriptures. The Scriptures are clear that we only love Him because He first loved us. They are also clear that God’s grace was poured out through His Son on the cross “while we were yet sinners”. There is nothing we can do to “earn” grace, and we can 't have the ability to be grateful for what He has done before we receive Grace.

True, that God’s grace is poured out through our Lord on us sinners. But it is also true that in order to receive it, we need to live a life worthy of God’s grace. Yes, faith, grace and everything from God is a gift. But a gift will not benefit the unworthy and it has to be gained through good works.

How can we simultaneously call “faith” a gift and say that we are called to believe

 

[JonNC]

I have read your proposition on other threads, and I do agree with your premise that God gives grace to the humble. It sounds strange to say that it is a “reward”, but I think I understand this in the sense that a soul that is properly disposed is able to be more receptive of spiritual gifts.

However, some receive faith in spite of being prideful, so it does not explain the entire picture.

Yes, we can exercise our faith through humility and good works, and when we exercise it, it grows. However, this is also not the only way that a person gains or grows in faith. Our faith is strengthened by other things as well, and some of those factors have nothing to do with what we do, or don’t do. Grace kindles our faith, and while we are yet sinners, He poured out His grace upon us. We gain the faith to be saved as a free gift (not of works, lest any of us should boast).

Yes, but God is clearly able to supernaturally manifest himself to the prideful, in spite of their blindess, they are made to “see” him, and sometimes are able to experience humility. Despite his efforts, Pharoah did not seem to be one of them.

While we are able to have the obedience of faith by means of Grace, this is not the only way to define grace. Grace (His unmerited favor) is what provides the opportunity to partake of His Divine Nature. But we access Grace by faith. Grace is poured out to all. It is still present, though persons who don’t receive it do not have the ability to abide in Him.

The problem with this is that it contradicts the Holy Scriptures. The Scriptures are clear that we only love Him because He first loved us. They are also clear that God’s grace was poured out through His Son on the cross “while we were yet sinners”. There is nothing we can do to “earn” grace, and we can 't have the ability to be grateful for what He has done before we receive Grace.

You express my concerns about Pitcharan’s language regarding Grace and faith quite well, and as a Lutheran, I generally agree with what you say here. I do emphasize Pitch’s language, and not his belief, because I am of the belief that, coming from different traditions, sometimes language and expression at times mask our agreements.

Jon