Thoughts on "faith alone" - I welcome your responses

[Pitcharan]

You express my concerns about Pitcharan’s language regarding Grace and faith quite well, and as a Lutheran, I generally agree with what you say here. I do emphasize Pitch’s language, and not his belief, because I am of the belief that, coming from different traditions, sometimes language and expression at times mask our agreements.

Jon

A common question for JonNC and Guanaphore:
If you were touched by the humility of someone under your authority and rewarded the person, isn’t it appropriate to say that the person earned the reward through humility?
Though everything from God is a gift, there are specific ways to gain God’s gifts. If it was God’s plan to gift mankind with “faith”, then these verses suggest something else:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16).
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— (John 1:12).

If you wish I can cite several instances in the gospels that suggest that “faith” is earned through humility. Just consider the instance when the apostles specifically queried about how to increase faith (Lk 17:5-10). I share below my understanding (bold font) and invite your comments:
Lk 17:5 The apostles request the Lord to increase their faith.
*The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” *

Lk 17:6- Our Lord points out that they hardly have faith by describing what a little bit of faith can achieve
He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you.

Lk 17:7-10 Our Lord reveals that the key to gaining faith is HUMILITY.
"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? Would he not rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’ "

 

[JonNC]

=Pitcharan;7171684]A common question for JonNC and Guanaphore:
If you were touched by the humility of someone under your authority and rewarded the person, isn’t it appropriate to say that the person earned the reward through humility?
Though everything from God is a gift, there are specific ways to gain God’s gifts. If it was God’s plan to gift mankind with “faith”, then these verses suggest something else:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16).
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— (John 1:12).
Hi Pitch,
If faith is a gift, how can I earn it? How does one earn a gift? I won’t disagree that growth in faith and Grace requires our cooperation in our sanctification.

If you wish I can cite several instances in the gospels that suggest that “faith” is earned through humility. Just consider the instance when the apostles specifically queried about how to increase faith (Lk 17:5-10). I share below my understanding (bold font) and invite your comments:
Lk 17:5 The apostles request the Lord to increase their faith.

*The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” *

Lk 17:6- Our Lord points out that they hardly have faith by describing what a little bit of faith can achieve
He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you.

Lk 17:7-10 Our Lord reveals that the key to gaining faith is HUMILITY.
"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? Would he not rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’ "

Are you saying one simply needs to be humble, and that all of a sudden, without the Holy Spirit, one has faith? If one is an unworthy servant, one is already a servant, and becomes a servant by the actions of the master. Correct?
If one has faith, even as small as a mustard seed, that faith is a gift of Grace. Once one has received that gift, then yes, we grow in grace.

Here are some interesting questions:
Can one be considered humble if there is an intent to gain favor?
How humble is humble enough to receive favor?
Can one be humble and still be bound to sin, death, and the devil?

Jon

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi Pitch,
If faith is a gift, how can I earn it? How does one earn a gift? I won’t disagree that growth in faith and Grace requires our cooperation in our sanctification.

It was not I who said that faith is a gift, but you. I merely agreed partially that everything from God is a gift in the broad sense. I always maintained that “faith” is earned / gained through humility and good works of love.

Are you saying one simply needs to be humble, and that all of a sudden, without the Holy Spirit, one has faith?

How can you refer to things I never said. This is what I have been saying all along: A HUMBLE PERSON IS REWARDED WITH FAITH: Eg. THE CENTURION & THE CANAANITE MOTHER OF A DEMON POSESSED GIRL. Obviously, the reward of faith is from God and delivered through the HS who reveals.

Here are some interesting questions:
Can one be considered humble if there is an intent to gain favor?

CERTAINLY, WHY NOT

How humble is humble enough to receive favor?

In fact, it is the humble who receive favors; the proud either spurn it or demand as a right.

Can one be humble and still be bound to sin, death, and the devil?

Freedom from slavery to sin is a long process. At any time there can be both humble and proud sinners.

 

[gtrenewed]

Scripture also says that ingratitude led to disobedience: *“For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened” *(Rom 1:21)

They were already disobedient by supressing the truth in unrighteousness, verse 18. The context here is that God put the truth within them but they were disobedient to the truth by worshipping idols and this is not glorifying God nor giving Him thanks.

You are trying to make works out of gratitude and humility. They are fruits of our heavenly relationship that enable us to do good works.

Remember, Jesus is the vine we are the branches and apart from Him we cannot bear fruit. Being humble does not earn faith but if we give our wills over to the truth of the gospel we receive faith by the grace of God.

In fact, this is how unbelief led to disobedience in Eve’s case: Ingratitude enabled Satan to inject pride, which in turn blinded her. The blind Eve lost faith in God and listened to Satan after rejecting God’s warning.

You are reading into scripture here. Also adding to scripture. Satan cannot inject pride. Satans sin was pride because he wanted to ascend higher than God. Eve was not desiring this but she was deceived because of her senses and unbelief in God’s word.

 

[Pitcharan]

They were already disobedient by supressing the truth in unrighteousness, verse 18. The context here is that God put the truth within them but they were disobedient to the truth by worshipping idols and this is not glorifying God nor giving Him thanks.

Their disobedience and blindness to truth is an outcome of lack of grace caused by ingratitude

You are trying to make works out of gratitude and humility. They are fruits of our heavenly relationship that enable us to do good works.

Good fruits and good works are one and the same: Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." “What should we do then?” the crowd asked. John answered, “The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same.” (Luke 3:8-11)

Remember, Jesus is the vine we are the branches and apart from Him we cannot bear fruit. Being humble does not earn faith but if we give our wills over to the truth of the gospel we receive faith by the grace of God.

Yes I know. Our gratitude earns Grace to abide. The good fruit produced by abiding earns Faith through spiritual vision

You are reading into scripture here. Also adding to scripture. Satan cannot inject pride.

You may dispute the semantics; but you cannot say I am adding to scripture. If a human being is deceived by Satan and becomes proud, obviously it means Satan has injected pride. Would Eve ever become proud without Satan’s deception? DO NOT FALSELY ACCUSE ME OF ADDING TO SCRIPTURE.

Satans sin was pride because he wanted to ascend higher than God. Eve was not desiring this but she was deceived because of her senses and unbelief in God’s word.

How did Eve’s unbelief come about suddenly? How did she become spiritually blind? This is the process: ingratitude blocks abiding Grace and exposes humans to assault by Satan. The result is pride, disobedience, carnal cravings…and loss of faith

 

[JonNC]

=Pitcharan;7174360]It was not I who said that faith is a gift, but you. I merely agreed partially that everything from God is a gift in the broad sense. I always maintained that “faith” is earned / gained through humility and good works of love.

Are you then saying that faith is only offered by grace to the humble, or those who do works of love?

How can you refer to things I never said. This is what I have been saying all along: A HUMBLE PERSON IS REWARDED WITH FAITH: Eg. THE CENTURION & THE CANAANITE MOTHER OF A DEMON POSESSED GIRL. Obviously, the reward of faith is from God and delivered through the HS who reveals.

I simply asked a question. I would contend that in both these cases grace brought these people to faith and, as you say, was revealed to them by the Holy Spirit.

In fact, it is the humble who receive favors; the proud either spurn it or demand as a right.

OK, but how humble is humble enough?

Freedom from slavery to sin is a long process. At any time there can be both humble and proud sinners.

And I have seen a few very proud people brought to their knees by Grace.

Jon

 

[Pitcharan]

Are you then saying that faith is only offered by grace to the humble, or those who do works of love?

I am merely saying that the gospels clearly teach that humility and other works of love, earn faith. Whether it is the only way is something that does not interest me. I am aware that we receive it freely through baptism as did the jews through circumcision. But to sustain and grow in faith, it requires humility. Our Lord showcased humble gentiles and lauded their faith, thus teaching that anybody outside the church can gain faith through humility and other works of love. I would like to call this “circumcision of heart” OR “baptism of desire”, though it may be different from the official CC meaning

I simply asked a question. I would contend that in both these cases grace brought these people to faith and, as you say, was revealed to them by the Holy Spirit.

This cannot be debated because you and me do not share the same meaning for the word “grace”.

OK, but how humble is humble enough?

Humble enough like you who does not feel deserving a reward for your love and humility but treat your faith as God’s gift

And I have seen a few very proud people brought to their knees by Grace.

A proud person is humbled so that he/she may realise and change. This opportunity is given to all, though only some like the ‘prodigal son’ respond by seeing through their own folly and repent. Many others like the Pharaoh remain hard hearted even if their first born were to die.

 

[JonNC]

=Pitcharan;7177741]I am merely saying that the gospels clearly teach that humility and other works of love, earn faith. Whether it is the only way is something that does not interest me. I am aware that we receive it freely through baptism as did the jews through circumcision. But to sustain and grow in faith, it requires humility. Our Lord showcased humble gentiles and lauded their faith, thus teaching that anybody outside the church can gain faith through humility and other works of love. I would like to call this “circumcision of heart” OR “baptism of desire”, though it may be different from the official CC meaning

YES!!! To sustain and grow in faith. On this we agree!!! But one does earn faith by being humble. One receives faith because of Grace.

This cannot be debated because you and me do not share the same meaning for the word “grace”.

It is curious because Lutheran and Catholic theologians seem to have the same understanding of what Grace is.

SIZE=“3”]Humble enough like you who does not feel deserving a reward for your love and humility but treat your faith as God’s gift

Treat it as a gift, because it is a gift, not something earned.

A proud person is humbled so that he/she may realise and change. This opportunity is given to all, though only some like the ‘prodigal son’ respond by seeing through their own folly and repent. Many others like the Pharaoh remain hard hearted even if their first born were to die.

How are they humbled? By their own merit, or by the Holy Spirit? I would hope you and I agree that this humility, love, charity, hope, comes from Grace through faith. Because of grace through faith, the heart is changed.

Jon

 

[Pitcharan]

YES!!! To sustain and grow in faith. On this we agree!!! But one does earn faith by being humble. One receives faith because of Grace.

Our differences are boiling down to mere semantics

It is curious because Lutheran and Catholic theologians seem to have the same understanding of what Grace is.

This is a discussion between two christians in search of truth. Thre is no Lutheran or Catholic.

Treat it as a gift, because it is a gift, not something earned.

Fine, I can modify the choice of word from “earn” to “receive” or “gain”. But I stress that in order to receive this great gift of God called “Faith”, humility plays a cardinal role. A non-believer can receive Faith because of his/her humility. A believer can sustain and grow his/her faith through humility. A believer can become spiritually blind and lose faith through pride. A non-believer can remain far from faith due to pride

How are they humbled? By their own merit, or by the Holy Spirit? I would hope you and I agree that this humility, love, charity, hope, comes from Grace through faith. Because of grace through faith, the heart is changed

Nothing can happen apart from God’s will. The fall that follows pride is according to His design. The fall is meant to humble the proud hearted that he/she me learn from it and change. If humbling is responded with contriteness and humility then one gains Faith. If the response is hardness of heart it ultimately leads to spiritual death after many more falls which are additional chances given to change. The response, whether humble or proud, is entirely up to the person and in his/her hands.

• The wage of sin is death
• The wage of pride is spiritual blindness
• The wage of humility is faith through spiritual vision

 

[tester]

If your faith doesn’t CHANGE you;
then your faith doesn’t SAVE you.

or if your faith hasn’t changed you;
then your faith hasn’t saved you.

 

[JonNC]

=Pitcharan;7181384]Our differences are boiling down to mere semantics

Indeed.

This is a discussion between two christians in search of truth. Thre is no Lutheran or Catholic.

Absolutely

Fine, I can modify the choice of word from “earn” to “receive” or “gain”. But I stress that in order to receive this great gift of God called “Faith”, humility plays a cardinal role. A non-believer can receive Faith because of his/her humility. A believer can sustain and grow his/her faith through humility. A believer can become spiritually blind and lose faith through pride. A non-believer can remain far from faith due to pride

Agreed, except I would say to grow in that faith.

Nothing can happen apart from God’s will. The fall that follows pride is according to His design. The fall is meant to humble the proud hearted that he/she me learn from it and change. If humbling is responded with contriteness and humility then one gains Faith. If the response is hardness of heart it ultimately leads to spiritual death after many more falls which are additional chances given to change. The response, whether humble or proud, is entirely up to the person and in his/her hands.

I, too believe in free will to reject grace.

Peace, my friend.

Jon

 

[Pitcharan]

Indeed.

Absolutely

Agreed, except I would say to grow in that faith.

I, too believe in free will to reject grace.

Peace, my friend.

Jon

Thanks Jon. I invite you to take a relook at the definition of Grace as “ability to abide, ie. keep God’s commands”, with an open and fresh mind

 

[gtrenewed]

Good fruits and good works are one and the same:
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." “What should we do then?” the crowd asked. John answered, “The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same.” (Luke 3:8-11)

In this example I would agree. I was thinking more of the fruit of the Spirit in Gal 5:22-23, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

The good fruit produced by abiding earns Faith through spiritual vision

Please explain this using the scriptures that brought you to this conclusion.

You may dispute the semantics; but you cannot say I am adding to scripture. If a human being is deceived by Satan and becomes proud, obviously it means Satan has injected pride.

Where in scripture does it say that Satan injects pride? If it is not in scripture then you have added to scripture

Would Eve ever become proud without Satan’s deception? DO NOT FALSELY ACCUSE ME OF ADDING TO SCRIPTURE.
How did Eve’s unbelief come about suddenly? How did she become spiritually blind? This is the process: ingratitude blocks abiding Grace and exposes humans to assault by Satan. The result is pride, disobedience, carnal cravings…and loss of faith

Where is it said the deception came about suddenly? This is reading into scripture.

The process, as you call it, where is this in scripture? Whether we are grateful or ungrateful, Satan will assault us. Jesus was assaulted by Satan and He was not ungrateful.

You have made some assumptions and drawn conclusions that do not necessarily follow scripture, that is why I said you added to scripture. You are passionate about your postulations but we all need to be passionate about the gospel of grace as presented in scripture.

“The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:20-21

 

[Pitcharan]

Please explain this using the scriptures that brought you to this conclusion.

It is an inspired deduction and the gospel verses that led to this are decribed by me already on another thread. Here’s the link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7106775&postcount=2

Where in scripture does it say that Satan injects pride? If it is not in scripture then you have added to scripture

By your yardstick every commentary would amount to adding to scripture. I am unable to explain that it is no addition but mere deduction

Where is it said the deception came about suddenly? This is reading into scripture.

The scripture suggests they were deceived. It is up to us to ponder and understand how, why.

The process, as you call it, where is this in scripture? Whether we are grateful or ungrateful, Satan will assault us. Jesus was assaulted by Satan and He was not ungrateful.

I meant injured by assault. Jesus remained unharmed by Satan’s assault. An ungrateful person will be afflicted

You have made some assumptions and drawn conclusions that do not necessarily follow scripture, that is why I said you added to scripture. You are passionate about your postulations but we all need to be passionate about the gospel of grace as presented in scripture.

As explained above, there is no assumption, only inspired deduction.

“The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:20-21

“Sin increased” means many disobeyed. “grace abounded” means the remnant of God remained obedient. According to my understanding, grace is the ability to abide ie., keep God’s command

 

[gtrenewed]

It is an inspired deduction and the gospel verses that led to this are decribed by me already on another thread. Here’s the link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7106775&postcount=2

Your postulation is very well laid out, but it is slightly flawed in several places, in my understanding at least; but I have found it is very difficult to correct inspired deduction!

By your yardstick every commentary would amount to adding to scripture.

Not so, when commentary agrees with scripture it flows very natural to the inner ear but your commentary does not flow and alerts us that something is off.

The scripture suggests they were deceived. It is up to us to ponder and understand how, why.

But when you conclude as obvious things not found in scripture then you add to scripture. If you ponder as a personal spiritual exercise and believe something for your own edification; you would do well to test it against established teaching. If you are objective and humble, you can better understand and admit when there is error and change course.
Bookstores are replete with many inspired deductions; yet not all are true.

I meant injured by assault. Jesus remained unharmed by Satan’s assault. An ungrateful person will be afflicted

Not necessarily. An ungrateful person can be afflicted but an ungrateful person can also prosper. This is the hole in your deduction. The goodness of God leads to repentence. You are saying such and such is an obvious deduction and thereby making absolutes where you should be yielding to God’s way.

“Sin increased” means many disobeyed. “grace abounded” means the remnant of God remained obedient.

Wrong deduction. “for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;” Rom 3:9 and continuing verses 10-20 is the context to Rom 5:19-20

According to my understanding, grace is the ability to abide ie., keep God’s command

Grace is God’s unmerited favor. Replace the word grace with that definition in scripture and it will be clear to you.

By God’s grace we can abide and we can obey, this is true.

I think you are making faith and grace elements under our control and by our efforts; when in fact, they are God’s.

 

[Pitcharan]

…Not so, when commentary agrees with scripture it flows very natural to the inner ear but your commentary does not flow and alerts us that something is off…But when you conclude as obvious things not found in scripture then you add to scripture. If you ponder as a personal spiritual exercise and believe something for your own edification; you would do well to test it against established teaching. If you are objective and humble, you can better understand and admit when there is error and change course.

I welcome your suggestion. But though you may not know, we have a process in place in the CC. We submit our views in writing to the competent authority (Bishop or a VG assigned the task by him) who in turn assigns one or more theologians to review the manuscript. Based on their report, the Bishop declares whether there are doctrinal errors. Only after obtaining such clearance (NIHIL OBSTAT) do we publish our views. What I posted was already published as per the said process

Bookstores are replete with many inspired deductions; yet not all are true.

But catholic books are rarely published without proper review and clearance (NIHIL OBSTAT & IMPRIMATUR)

Not necessarily. An ungrateful person can be afflicted but an ungrateful person can also prosper. This is the hole in your deduction. The goodness of God leads to repentence. You are saying such and such is an obvious deduction and thereby making absolutes where you should be yielding to God’s way.

I am convinced beyond doubt that “ingratitude” to God’s bounties is the cause for affliction with sinful natures and “gratitude” is the provider of “abiding grace”. Prosperity of the wicked means nothing. What does it profit to gain the whole world and lose the soul?

Wrong deduction. “for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;” Rom 3:9 and continuing verses 10-20 is the context to Rom 5:19-20

Can you elaborate please. I don’t get you.

Grace is God’s unmerited favor. Replace the word grace with that definition in scripture and it will be clear to you.

Believe me; I’m not being unique out of pride. Do consider my definition of “grace” sans preconception. I am aware that it is different from the official definition of all churches

By God’s grace we can abide and we can obey, this is true.

I am saying that GRACE is ABILITY TO ABIDE and comes to us from God

I think you are making faith and grace elements under our control and by our efforts; when in fact, they are God’s.

Are you saying it takes no effort from our side whatsoever in order to receive Faith and Grace from God

“You have been loaded with favors. Do not forget the debt you thence contract. Beware of the crime of ingratitude. Every creature, says Richard of St. Victor, addresses these three words to man: Receive, give, beware. Receive the benefit; give thanks for it; and beware of the punishment of ingratitude”. (Chapter 3, The Sinner’s Guide by Louis of Granada)

 

[Holly3278]

My thoughts on “salvation by faith alone”? Well, I think the Bible says it more clearly than I could.

What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
(James 2:14-26 RSV)

Of course, there are also some articles online that convey my thoughts on this better than I can articulate in my own words:

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303sbs.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9304fea1.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9306clas.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9710chap.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0302clas.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909chap.asp

askacatholic.com/holyquotes/documents/_all_catholic_verses.htm#faithplusworks

biblechristiansociety.com/download/mp3/debate_sola_fide.mp3

biblechristiansociety.com/download/mp3/sola_fide.mp3

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/worksav.htm

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/saved.htm

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/trent1.htm

catholicintl.com/noncatholicissues/confused-prot.htm

catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/justification/engwer-answers.htm

catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/justification/horton-rebutal.htm

catholicapologetics.org/ap020800.htm

philvaz.com/apologetics/a59.htm

philvaz.com/JHBobSungenis.mp3

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.htm

ewtn.com/library/answers/faworks.htm

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=308646&Pg=&Pgnu=1&recnu=

Still not convinced? I can find plenty more!

 

[JonNC]

My thoughts on “salvation by faith alone”? Well, I think the Bible says it more clearly than I could.

What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
(James 2:14-26 RSV)

As someone who believes we are justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, there is absolutely nothing that I disagree with here. Faith without works - love and charity toward the least of His children - is clearly a dead faith, and not a living, active, saving faith. Sola fide never excludes good works, but includes it as a necessity. We are justified by faith alone, but faith is not, cannot be alone if it is a living saving faith.

Jon

 

[gtrenewed]

As someone who believes we are justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, there is absolutely nothing that I disagree with here. Faith without works - love and charity toward the least of His children - is clearly a dead faith, and not a living, active, saving faith. Sola fide never excludes good works, but includes it as a necessity. We are justified by faith alone, but faith is not, cannot be alone if it is a living saving faith.

Jon

Well said. It seems to me that some christians see Jesus’ work as sufficient and other christians see Jesus’ work plus other works to be sufficient. Some christians can see the bible as directly applicable to them and some see the bible split between clergy and laity.

If this is the case we will never communicate effectively.

How does your tradition view baptism including infant baptism regarding saving/justifying faith? How about the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit with confirming signs; ie acts 19:5-6?

 

[gtrenewed]

I welcome your suggestion. But though you may not know, we have a process in place in the CC. We submit our views in writing to the competent authority (Bishop or a VG assigned the task by him) who in turn assigns one or more theologians to review the manuscript. Based on their report, the Bishop declares whether there are doctrinal errors. Only after obtaining such clearance (NIHIL OBSTAT) do we publish our views. What I posted was already published as per the said process

Did you submit the work for approval? or are you presenting others material?

If you have approval then why did you say previously that all churches were against you?

Originally Posted by gtrenewed forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Wrong deduction. “for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;” Rom 3:9 and continuing verses 10-20 is the context to Rom 5:19-20

Can you elaborate please. I don’t get you.

In Rom 5:20 it says “…where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:” you said sin were the disobedient and grace were the obedient. To that I replied with Rom 3:9 to show that all were sinners but that grace (God’s unmerited favor) was there. I was saying you wrongly deduced this passage.

Believe me; I’m not being unique out of pride. Do consider my definition of “grace” sans preconception.

I do regard you as sincere. I have considered your definition. There is the basic definition of grace - God’s unmerited favor - and there are different types of grace; such as, saving, sanctifying, etc. yet they all are unmerited. While humility and gratitude are important and signs of maturity, they are not a formula for increasing faith. Your conclusion that asking God for something equates to humility that leads to grace that leads to faith is not sound. It takes faith to even ask in the first place.

It is hard to debate this because your position and mine have the same elements; faith, grace, humility, gratitude, etc. Like a jigsaw puzzle, we have arranged them differently and thus have a different picture.

I am aware that it is different from the official definition of all churches

I thought you had approval, imprimatur and nihil obstat?

I am saying that GRACE is ABILITY TO ABIDE and comes to us from God

It takes grace to abide but grace is not the ability to abide. Permit me to use this example: it takes money to live but money is not the ability to live.

Are you saying it takes no effort from our side whatsoever in order to receive Faith and Grace from God

How do you receive a free gift? We respond to the free gift and we do not frustrate His grace, we cooperate with our will. This is different from doing works to receive from God. This would make faith and grace payment for our work.