It is now being realised that the so called sale of indulgences was the protestantized history published by England and gobbled by America that became world opinion and belief, thanks to the then vast British empire
I’m not sure your explanation of Catholic belief is exactly true in the bolded.
Not sure here what you mean by “directly applicable”. If you mean individual interpretation, I oppose it, as a result of my tradition’s view of it.
For Baptism, the Augsburg Confession says:
Happy to be of service.
Yes, but that “desiring” is part of our “work”. It is, as Jesus said, the “work of God” by which we are saved. We must give the assent of our intellect and our will.
Pitcharan, I was beginning to understand you and thought you and your conclusions were rational, even if some premises seemed flawed to me. That was until I read this post
There are also catholic clergy who have left catholicism. What I take away from both sides is that they are not converting away from Jesus but away from a theological discipline.
It was true for me growing up a catholic in the 50’s/60’s.
For instance, I was once told that Paul writing to Timothy concerning the sufficiency of scripture to lead to salvation only applies to bishops since Timothy was a bishop.
You deftly ignored the confirming signs of tongues in my scripture example. What are you confirming them to?
Have you considered that what you have received as “the gospel of hope” might be deficient? It was truncated long before you were born, and has been metamorphing ever since.
This statement is the product of heretical ideas. I know they are not yours, and that you only inherited them, so you could not know that they represent a significant departure from the Apostolic faith.
By this we know that human flesh can be perfected and glorify God. Our humanity has been wounded by sin, but this sinful state is not God’s intention for us. He sent His son to set us free from our sins, all of them. The notion that we have to sin, or be in a state of sin because whe are in the flesh is false.I am glad that you have retainted this Catholic teaching.
Well, it is also comforting for the redeemed to know that we can be perfect, and that we can stand before God in purity because of His grace.
Because it is theologically impossible to “sell” an indulgence. An indulgence is an application of the grace of God, which is free. It cannot be bought, sold, or “earned”.
I do not deny that abuses took place in Europe at the time of the Reformation, and that there were greedy wolves among the sheep that twisted the Truth,a nd took advantage of the flock.
Technically speaking, all that we are is a free gift. My arms and my legs are created by God. Faith is, in the same way as our other faculties, part of our humanity.
Not sure what you mean by this. Faith is the human faculty through which mankind connects to the grace of God, obtaining salvation.
It may not be faith in your dictionary, my friend, but it is certainly faith. People put their faith in all kinds of idolatrous things. Why do you think Jesus was alwasy chiding them? “Where is your faith?” They can choose not to put it where it belongs.
Indeed they exercised their faith. They knew what they believed, and they acted according to that belief. Their faith was rewarded by His grace.
Each one has the measure he needs to do what he is called to do. I will also concede that there is a supernaturally gifted faith that enables believers do believe over and above the average person.
Jesus deficient, I think not! Scripture deficient, I think not! Holy Spirit deficient, I think not! My question to you is why are you Ruthenian? Is there something deficient in the RCC? If not then why not total unity by being a RC?
Scripture says we were more than wounded, we were mortally wounded. Scripture says that Jesus had to condemn sin in the flesh and become a curse for us. It also says that Jesus was given a new body, one that went through a wall to talk with the disciples, and that we will too after He returns and we are resurrected just as He was resurrected and ours will be like His. So human flesh cannot be perfected because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.If there were something wrong with human flesh, then Jesus would not have been able to take His into heaven.
And His grace is called Jesus:thumbsup:
More the pity
they were not taught properly, nor those that were did not stand up to, as you have put it, ‘a greedy wolf’, and his henchmen, oh, wait, that’s right, one did!
Sounds like you are distancing yourself from the RCC?
I can see your point, and I agree that some leave the catholic faith to avoid spiritual disciplines. They dont’ want to follow what the Church tells them will help to purify them.
Yes, I think this is why it is not appropriate to say that “faith alone” Christians always go for “easy believism”. I think most believe that we are to bear the fruit of the vine in our lives.
This is part of the difference here. The Apostles taught that those good works do make us more “christain”. That when we walk in the works that God prepared for us, his grace transforms us from the inside, making us day by day more in line with His character.
Ok, I’ll let the Catholics here respond to it then.
No, I wouldn’t agree with that interpretation, but I also disagree with individual interpretation, which is where I though you were going. I do believe that scripture is sufficient, though I believe hermeneutics is the role of the Church.
Yes, I disagree with the Catholic Church’s interpretation of the primacy of Peter. I accept the teaching regarding the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome found in the Council of Nicea, canon 6.
I missed your point, then. Sorry. Are you asking if I believe in speaking in tongues? Yes, so long as there is someone who can hear and understand the tongues spoken.
Scripture is what separates them. The epistles are written to the saved to largely correct errors in behavior and to encourage good works amongst the brethren. Why would they need to be corrected? Because they initially were taught freedom in the spirit by justification by faith alone. With this new freedom and being immature these new christians needed guidance and reminder that there is salvation and there is the salvation walk unto the end.
Sadly there is a whole generation of poorly formed Catholics. It is a travesty. Are you willing to accept that what you were taught did not faithfully represent Catholic belief?
Well, he was a bishop…but the Church teaches that Scripture leads us to Christ, who is our salvation. Scripture does not teach that it is all we need.
In the Eastern Church, chrismation (confirmation) is given at the time of baptism. It is a sealing of the believer in the HS.
OK please define ‘the church’
I will look this up but could you briefly state what that is?
Sometimes on this forum if I state my whole point some of it is missed and never addressed. So I have learned to take it step by step, sorry for the confusion.
The confessions call it the congregation of believers. That said, Lutherans rely on the Lutheran Confessions in particular, also the early councils, for doctrine.
“Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis prevail: that the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these, sine the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also. Likewise in Antioch and the other provinces, let the Churches retain their privileges. And this is to be universally understood: that if any one be made bishop without the consent of the Metropolitan, the Great Synod has declared that such a man ought not to be a bishop. If, however, two or three bishops shall from natural love of contradiction, oppose the common suffrage of the rest, it being reasonable and in accordance with the ecclesiastical law, then let the choice of the majority prevail.”
The confessions tell us that traditions in worship and liturgy need not be the same throughout. I find the greatest kind of love I know when I receive the Eucharist. I know, however, that that doesn’t answer your concern.
I am LCMS. Here is a link to what the LCMS as published about speaking in tongues. Frankly, it isn’t an issue I come accross very often as a Lutheran, though I know there is a charismatic movement in many synods of Lutheranism. I just relayed what I was taught as a child, that speaking in tongues is of no value unless someone can translate/intepret/ understand the tongues being spoken.
Unfortuneately it did represent roman catholic teaching of the time. Not one generation but at least two - one teaching - one being taught.
Where is that taught since it is not in scripture?
I was not asking about any of these. I was asking about the gospel you received. You see, from an Apostolic point of view, what you have received is called “a different gospel” than the one that was handed down to us from them.
When I came back to the Catholic Church after learning that my separated brethren had received a deficient gospel, I was disgusted by the liturgical abuses of the Novus Ordo. I attended Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine Rite, and fell in love.
This is not consistent with the Apostolic Teaching.
Indeed, our flesh is wounded, and has a tendency toward sin. Latin Catholcis call this “concupiscence”. Our separated brethren call it “sin nature”. But there is nothing inherintly about the flesh that displeases God. If this were the case, when He enfleshed our souls, He would not have proclaimed the creation of us “good”. Paul does talk about beating his body to subdue it, so that it will be in subjection to the Spirit. This is the way our human nature is supposed to function. This is the way God created us, the body serves the Spirit, and the Spirit serves the creator.
God created us with flesh and blood, and He took His own flesh and blood into heaven (in glorified form). However, if we say that it is not truly human flesh and human blood that He took to heaven, then we are denying that He came in the flesh, and that He bodily resurrected. You see where this goes. If one villifies human flesh, one’s Christology starts to suffer.
These two are not separated, GT. To be “in Christ” is to have our flesh in submission to God. We are to follow the example of Paul, and do whatever is necessary to bring our flesh and it’s desires into submission to Him.You were misinformed if you were told this could not happen. It does happen.
Again this formulation denies the humanity of Christ. This is part of a gnostic heresy that was defeated in the early centuries of the Church. I find it fascinating that heresies centuries old still raise their ugly heads today. As a matter of fact, this heresy grew out the same way it does today - people were reading the Holy Scriptures in separation from the teaching of the Apostles and came up with bizarre ideas.
It is very Catholic of you to day this!