Thoughts on Marian Apparitions

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I think you misunderstood what Keverlast said. I don’t believe he said that he was somehow compelled to get on his knees to pray to Mary, but that while he was already on his knees, learning to pray the rosary, he had a spiritual experience that was strong enough for him to recognize it as being a result of his prayer. That is actually a very common occurrence for some people while praying the rosary. Those kinds of ‘feelings’ come from God as an affirmation that He is pleased with our prayers. They’re called ‘signal graces’.
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I certainly hope so. I do not know what is in his head so I will accept your explanation.
What most non-Catholics don’t fully understand is the real purpose and formula for praying the rosary. That’s why they believe that it’s a prayer that just focuses on Mary. It does not. It’s really a contemplative tool that is used to help us to concentrate while we meditate on the life of Jesus. That’s the true purpose and what Mary wants us to do whenever we say it. The repetition of the Hail Mary is almost done in a monotone that is meant to focus our attention on the subject (the ‘mystery’) of each ‘decade’ (1-Our Father, 10-Hail Marys, 1-Glory Be). Some people complain about so many Hail Marys in comparison to the Our Father or the Glory Be to God, but the truth is, the OF & GB are more powerful prayers, because they are directed to God, Himself.
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I don’t really understand how it could help you concentrate and mediate more. Could you elaborate for me, please?
All of these things are to be meditated on while saying the Rosary. Each decade is dedicated to one aspect of the life of Jesus. So, the Rosary, is just a tool to be used in order to concentrate our minds on the life of Christ. There is no focus on Mary except as a magnifying glass to concentrate our prayers to God.
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Here’s a link to describe what the Rosary is, it’s real purpose and how to say it. It also gives more detail on what each of those meditations signify in our lives as Catholics/Christians.
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The Holy Rosary is almost always a big part of any claims of ’ Marian apparitions’
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.

See, this is where I get bogged down.
In theory, what you say sounds perfectly fine. It doesn’t trouble me.

But what ends up happening does trouble me indeed. Take a look for instance, at the opening quote in the home page of the Rosary:

"Say the Rosary every day…
Pray, pray a lot and offer sacrifices for sinners…
I’m Our Lady of the Rosary.
Only I will be able to help you.
…In the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph."
Our Lady at Fatima

I’m sorry, but you say that Mary always points to Jesus. It looks like she is pointing to herself, not to Jesus. Could you clarify?

On a separate note, if I may ask, what is the perspective of the Orthodox concerning this? Heyschios, you seem more detached from it (with regards to Marian devotion). I realize the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches are not the same, but I was wondering what do the Orthodox think on this?
 
kylemccloughan said:
I really and truly wish and hope that you do not. Truly I hope that you do not. The problem is that veneration by definition is worship. Look up the word veneration and see what the definition is. I’m not trying to be uncharitable. I’m not…
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ven·er·ate/ˈvenəˌrāt/
Verb: Regard with great respect; revere.
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From dictionary.com - God bless :byzsoc:

David
 
Tantum_ergo said:
kylemccloughan;8125059:
Kyle, the definition of ‘gay’ today is ‘homosexual’. Was that the definition of gay in the year 1911, or 1811? It wasn’t, was it? If you read a poem about ‘garlands gay’ written by an Elizabethan poet, would you insist that the flowers were homosexual?

The word ‘pray’ is often triumphantly claimed to mean 'petitions or communication with GOD ALONE". . .but way back when (good old Shakespeare) all it meant was ‘ask’. . .and ask ‘tom, dick or harry’, not ‘God alone.’

The word “worship” itself was understood not to refer to ‘God alone’ centuries ago. Look it up. Hey, in your own (Anglican) prayerbooks the ‘old’ form of marriage I believe said this

“With my body I THEE WORSHIP”.

Well, are you worshipping your spouse like God? I think not.

If your own Anglican prayers can state (and they do) that ‘worship’ can be used of others than ‘God alone’ with a sense that is not ‘worship of Almighty God’, why are you so hung up on the linguistics with ‘older’ prayers regarding Mary?
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I don’t think you are even remotely on the same page with that argument.
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From the ANGLICAN BOOK OF COMMON PRAYER for the Solemnization of Marriage:
DEARLY beloved, we are gathered together here in the sight of God, and in the face of this congregation, to join together this Man and this Woman in holy Matrimony; which is an honourable estate, instituted of God in the time of man’s innocency, signifying unto us the mystical union that is betwixt Christ and his Church; which holy estate Christ adorned and beautified with his presence, and first miracle that he wrought, in Cana of Galilee; and is commended of Saint Paul to be honourable among all men: and therefore is not by any to be enterprised, nor taken in hand, unadvisedly, lightly, or wantonly, to satisfy men’s carnal lusts and appetites, like brute beasts that have no understanding; but reverently, discreetly, advisedly, soberly, and in the fear of God; duly considering the causes for which Matrimony was ordained.
First, It was ordained for the procreation of children, to be brought up in the fear and nurture of the Lord, and to the praise of his holy Name.
Secondly, It was ordained for a remedy against sin, and to avoid fornication; that such persons as have not the gift of continency might marry, and keep themselves undefiled members of Christ’s body.
Thirdly, It was ordained for the mutual society, help, and comfort, that the one ought to have of the other, both in prosperity and adversity. Into which holy estate these two persons present come now to be joined. Therefore if any man can shew any just cause, why they may not lawfully be joined together, let him now speak, or else hereafter for ever hold his peace.
And also, speaking unto the persons that shall be married, he shall say,
I REQUIRE and charge you both, as ye will answer at the dreadful day of judgement when the secrets of all hearts shall be disclosed, that if either of you know any impediment, why ye may not be lawfully joined together in Matrimony, ye do now confess it. For be ye well assured, that so many as are coupled together otherwise than God’s Word doth allow are not joined together by God; neither is their Matrimony lawful.
At which day of Marriage, if any man do alledge and declare any impediment, why they may not be coupled together in Matrimony, by God’s Law, or the Laws of this Realm; and will be bound, and sufficient sureties with him, to the parties; or else put in a Caution (to the full value of such charges as the persons to be married do thereby sustain) to prove his allegation: then the solemnization must be deferred, until such time as the truth be tried.
If no impediment be alledged, then shall the Curate say unto the Man,
M. WILT thou have this Woman to thy wedded Wife, to live together after God’s ordinance in the holy estate of Matrimony? Wilt thou love her, comfort her, honour, and keep her in sickness and in health; and, forsaking all other, keep thee only unto her, so long as ye both shall live?
The Man shall answer, I will.
Then shall the Priest say unto the Woman,
N. WILT thou have this Man to thy wedded Husband, to live together after God’s ordinance in the holy estate of Matrimony? Wilt thou obey him, and serve him, love, honour, and keep him in sickness and in health; and, forsaking all other, keep thee only unto him, so long as ye both shall live?
The Woman shall answer, I will.
Then shall the Minister say,
Who giveth this Woman to be married to this Man?
Then shall they give their troth to each other in this manner.
The Minister, receiving the Woman at her father’s or friend’s hands, shall cause the Man with his right hand to take the Woman by her right hand, and to say after him as followeth.
I M. take thee N. to my wedded Wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part, according to God’s holy ordinance; and thereto I plight thee my troth.
Then shall they loose their hands; and the Woman, with her right hand taking the Man by his right hand, shall likewise say after the Minister,
I N. take thee M. to my wedded Husband, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love, cherish, and to obey, till death us do part, according to God’s holy ordinance; and thereto I give thee my troth.
Then shall they again loose their hands; and the Man shall give unto the Woman a Ring, laying the same upon the book with the accustomed duty to the Priest and Clerk. And the Priest, taking the Ring, shall deliver it unto the Man, to put it upon the fourth finger of the Woman’s left hand. And the Man holding the Ring there, and taught by the Priest, shall say,
WITH this Ring I thee wed, with my Body I thee** worship**, and with all my worldly Goods I thee endow: In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
Then the Man leaving the Ring upon the fourth finger of the Woman’s left hand, they shall both kneel down, and the Minister shall say,
Let us pray.
O ETERNAL God, Creator and Preserver of all mankind, Giver of all spiritual grace, the Author of everlasting life; Send thy blessing upon these thy servants, this Man and this Woman, whom we bless in thy Name; that, as Isaac and Rebecca lived faithfully together, so these persons may surely perform and keep the vow and covenant betwixt them made, (whereof this Ring given and received is a token and pledge,) and may ever remain in perfect love and peace together, and live according to thy laws; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
 
kylemccloughan said:
Tantum ergo;8125093:
I don’t think you are even remotely on the same page with that argument.
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Wait. You mean that your Book of Common Prayer can use the word ‘worship’ as I posted, and that’s just FINE and DANDY, but when CATHOLICS speak of worship in regards to OLDER prayers about MARY suddenly it’s a whole different ball of wax?

HOW COME?

The use of ‘worship’ that I gave from your OWN BOOK OF COMMON PRAYER uses WORSHIP and NOT in the sense of worship of GOD. Why is THAT permitted?
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Tantum_ergo said:
kylemccloughan;8125105:
Wait. You mean that your Book of Common Prayer can use the word ‘worship’ as I posted, and that’s just FINE and DANDY, but when CATHOLICS speak of worship in regards to OLDER prayers about MARY suddenly it’s a whole different ball of wax?

HOW COME?

The use of ‘worship’ that I gave from your OWN BOOK OF COMMON PRAYER uses WORSHIP and NOT in the sense of worship of GOD. Why is THAT permitted?
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Now wait just a minute, I thought Catholics proclaim to NOT worship Mary. Are you now saying that you do??
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kylemccloughan said:
not so fast David.

Encarta World English Dictionary.

Synonyms for veneration: WORSHIP
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Not so fast, Kyle.

Your OWN BOOK OF COMMON PRAYER.

I put the ‘worship’ in RED for you.

Please explain why a man could ‘worship’ a wife with his body in your OWN MARRIAGE SERVICE in the EPISCOPAL CHURCH, and that’s peachy keen, but Catholics writing centuries ago could not speak of ‘worship’ unless it was only about GOD?
 
GKC said:
Have the terms* dulia, hyperdulia* and latria come up in this thread?

GKC
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I was wondering the same, just to let Mr. kylemccloughan know

The Catholic Church has 3 distinctions which are


  1. *]Latria - worship of God
    *]Hyperdulia - High honor of Mary
    *]Dulia - Honor of the saints
 
followingtheway said:
I was wondering the same, just to let Mr. kylemccloughan know

The Catholic Church has 3 distinctions which are


  1. *]Latria - worship of God
    *]Hyperdulia - High honor of Mary
    *]Dulia - Honor of the saints
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  1. Not to be snarky, but so what? That doesn’t befront me.
 
The problem, Kyle, is that you personally are insisting on only ONE definition of the word ‘worship’-- a modern one applied to "God alone’.

You are conveniently ignoring that the word ‘worship’ did not historically refer to ‘God alone’.
Your own EPISOCOPAL MARRIAGE SERVICE uses the word ‘worship’ when the MAN states “with my body I thee WORSHIP” to his wife.

If your men can worship their wives with their bodies, then ‘worship’ obviously does not always, only, and solely refer to that owed to God alone. . .does it Kyle?
 
kylemccloughan said:
Tantum ergo;8125126:
Instead of picking a fight with me which obviously is what you are trying to do, just answer my question first.
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Excuse me, I am not trying to ‘pick a fight.’ And I believe that I asked YOU the question first.

What about the words in your Book of Common Prayer? Do they not particularly have the male state that he will worship the female with his body?
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Tantum_ergo said:
kylemccloughan;8125133:
Excuse me, I am not trying to ‘pick a fight.’ And I believe that I asked YOU the question first.

What about the words in your Book of Common Prayer? Do they not particularly have the male state that he will worship the female with his body?
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Do you worship Mary Tantum?? Or are you avoiding the question because you are ashamed of your answer?
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