Thoughts on Marian Apparitions

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Is it really right to say the CC has decided any of the apparitions are “legit”? Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that have said they are not faked or teaching heresy?

I in theory accept that their could be apparitions of this type, but I am skeptical about many of the public, famous ones. I don’t think that the result in the public has tended to be positive - the Fatima apparitions to, me seem to have caused real harm.

And I don’t agree that because a person seems holy, or tries to be holy, that the apparition must be “real” - I think that the very holy are actually prime targets for demonic apparitions.

And I have issues with some of the messages that have been given.

All together, these things make me skeptical of the holy origins of some of these phenomena.

I do think many people may have had legitimate experiences and we never know about them, and they are probably very powerful to those they are meant for. But I don’t see those who tend to be always very interested in apparitions to have been really benefited by them.
 
I believe we can state for fact there is a reality to the Apparition’s in many of the sights. So we can conclude something is happening in the Supernatural World.

ABC Prime-Time ran a special this past Weds on this. And only “scratched” the surface. The depth of this with Mary in this time-period is profound. I believe its to early in time to speak in a counter-productive manner in this regard to the CC.

So at this point can we conclude the Catholic Church is wrong in regards to these approvals.

As far as Fatima the Pope clearly spoke on this. In Fatima May-2010 Benedict stated Fatima is not over. He also defines his May 2010 homily in “Light of the World” 2010. Which he confirms we are still in the period of Fatima.
 
Lourdes–more in the Christian witness of St. Bernadette herself, was the one who drew me to Lourdes, and Fatima…the actual message itself of praying the rosary, penance, conversion, and prayers for Russia.

We have all kinds of people in the Catholic Church. So many live simple, ordinary but devout lives. Occasionally, when I hear of someone saying they saw an image of Mary or Christ on some natural object, I wonder if this is the only time in their entire lives that they experienced something, while facing a world with no faith.

Othertimes, I have the impression that people are going overboard and trying to see reflections of the Divine in everything around them.
 
KathleenGee said:
Lourdes–more in the Christian witness of St. Bernadette herself, was the one who drew me to Lourdes, and Fatima…the actual message itself of praying the rosary, penance, conversion, and prayers for Russia.

We have all kinds of people in the Catholic Church. So many live simple, ordinary but devout lives. Occasionally, when I hear of someone saying they saw an image of Mary or Christ on some natural object, I wonder if this is the only time in their entire lives that they experienced something, while facing a world with no faith.

Othertimes, I have the impression that people are going overboard and trying to see reflections of the Divine in everything around them.
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I tend to agree that some people can go overboard, I’ve seen an image that looked exactly like traditional Catholic artwork of Our Lady of Sorrows in my bathroom wallpaper, but I don’t ascribe divine significance to it.
 
Tyuiop411 said:
I tend to agree that some people can go overboard, I’ve seen an image that looked exactly like traditional Catholic artwork of Our Lady of Sorrows in my bathroom wallpaper, but I don’t ascribe divine significance to it.
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Hmm, Marian bathroom wall-paper. I wonder if that would be popular.
 
I doubt them as divine…that they happen…I’m sure they do. Mormons I know have had apparitions of departed loved ones in the Temple…or angels…or any host of things…my Pentacostal aunt claimed that she stopped being afraid to stay alone at night when my uncle worked graveyard because she had 4 angels stationed at each corner of the house…she claimed to have seen and heard them.

I have had interesting experiences…but that are from a divine source or not…and not just manifestations of my imagination is a question I ask myself…

Buddhists see Buddhist apparations…Catholic see Catholic apparations…Mormons have Mormon apparations…it seems to me the apparitions occur under the form of the faith one holds or are influenced by…those Muslims that have seen Mary in vision…I’m sure have some questions concerning faith matters…so their “questions” take the form of Mary…a point of conflict they may have to resolve between Xianity and Islam.
 
Telstar said:
Bayside was condemned by the local Bishop, but it was never officially investigated in any great detail, whatsoever. From a personal experience standpoint, I don’t necessarily agree with their decision. Many Priests, Nuns and other clergy would also disagree with it. Bishops have been known to make mistakes in cases like these, before.

Medjugoré on the other hand, I have some serious doubts about.
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The Bayside condemnation was done in consultation with the Doctrine of the Faith:

ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/MUGABAY.TXT

QUOTE:
2. The “messages” and other related propaganda contain statements which,
among other things, are contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church,
undermine the legitimate authority of bishops and councils and instill
doubts in the minds of the faithful, for example, by claiming that, for
years, an “imposter (sic) Pope” governed the Catholic Church in place of
Paul VI. END QUOTE (color added)

Do you and many “priests, nuns, and other clergy” believe this?

I’ve been to Fatima (Portugal), Guadalupe (Mexico), and Lourdes (France). These have been investigated by the Church and found worthy of belief. Ample evidence exists for these apparitions.

I’ve been to Medjugorje (Croatia) and await the decision of the Church. It also has been condemned by the local bishop.

Jim Dandy
 
Conor7 said:
Admittedly, this topic fascinates and terrifies me. I’m curious what your thoughts are on Marian apparitions, weeping statues, the odor of sanctity, and the like.

This seems to be a mostly Catholic phenomenon, yet I recently read a report about a weeping Madonna at an Episcopal Church (I wish I remember where - I seem to recall it was in a Canada-adjacent U.S. state.)

I understand that Fatima has been deemed legit, yet obviously some of these events are hoaxed or perhaps even (I shutter to say) demonic. :eek:

I thought this might be a little fun and break up the constant theological debate.
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Usually, when one reads the accounts there is at least one churchman or spiritual senior (as in a religious community) close to the scene that has serious objections or is a major sceptic. I take more interest in the contemporary objections raised than in the claims themselves, although that information is usually hard to get (except in passing).

I am a strict constructionist in these matters. If I am not required to believe it, I more often than not operate under the assumption that it is untrue.
 
Telstar said:
Bayside was condemned by the local Bishop, but it was never officially investigated in any great detail, whatsoever. From a personal experience standpoint, I don’t necessarily agree with their decision. Many Priests, Nuns and other clergy would also disagree with it. Bishops have been known to make mistakes in cases like these, before.

Medjugoré on the other hand, I have some serious doubts about.
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Those two apparitions are very puzzling to me. 😦
 
Since Mary always, always is pointing the way away from herself and toward Jesus, any study or acknowledgement of an authentic approved Marian apparition will invariably lead to a greater knowledge, understanding, and love of Jesus.

So to worry that an authentic and approved apparition somehow ‘takes away’ from Jesus is totally wrong.

Love isn’t a finite quality. If you have a husband to whom you give 100% of your love, and then you and he have a child, you don’t suddenly now TAKE AWAY 50% of that 100% and give it to your child, thus ‘taking away’ that 50% from the husband so he no longer has 100%. Love is infinite. The more you have, the more you get and the more you give. Gosh, it’s Scriptural–to those who have, even more will be given.

I find that often (not always but often) the person with the worries about Jesus being ‘deprived’ has, deep inside, that wrong understanding of love. To him, love (and ‘notice’) must go ONLY TO GOD and he ‘shudders’ at the thought of acknowledging even a saint as though this ‘takes away’ from God.

He truly doesn’t realize that to the Catholic with the correct understanding, that ‘100% love’ for Jesus deepens along WITH a love for Mary, for the saints, etc.

Like the woman who has 100% love for a husband and then goes on to give 100% love to a child–not the ‘same’ love as the husband, because he keeps all of that, but another 100% which she generates for the child, and then yet another 100% for a second child, 100% for a third. . .not to mention previous 100% love for a mother, 100% for a father – a Catholic contemplating an authentic Marian apparition will thus continue to generate ‘100% love’ which deepens and strengthens all the other 100% loves that person has for each and every soul, and this above all will make the 100% love for God even stronger and better.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Since Mary always, always is pointing the way away from herself and toward Jesus, any study or acknowledgement of an authentic approved Marian apparition will invariably lead to a greater knowledge, understanding, and love of Jesus.

So to worry that an authentic and approved apparition somehow ‘takes away’ from Jesus is totally wrong.

Love isn’t a finite quality. If you have a husband to whom you give 100% of your love, and then you and he have a child, you don’t suddenly now TAKE AWAY 50% of that 100% and give it to your child, thus ‘taking away’ that 50% from the husband so he no longer has 100%. Love is infinite. The more you have, the more you get and the more you give. Gosh, it’s Scriptural–to those who have, even more will be given.

I find that often (not always but often) the person with the worries about Jesus being ‘deprived’ has, deep inside, that wrong understanding of love. To him, love (and ‘notice’) must go ONLY TO GOD and he ‘shudders’ at the thought of acknowledging even a saint as though this ‘takes away’ from God.

He truly doesn’t realize that to the Catholic with the correct understanding, that ‘100% love’ for Jesus deepens along WITH a love for Mary, for the saints, etc.

Like the woman who has 100% love for a husband and then goes on to give 100% love to a child–not the ‘same’ love as the husband, because he keeps all of that, but another 100% which she generates for the child, and then yet another 100% for a second child, 100% for a third. . .not to mention previous 100% love for a mother, 100% for a father – a Catholic contemplating an authentic Marian apparition will thus continue to generate ‘100% love’ which deepens and strengthens all the other 100% loves that person has for each and every soul, and this above all will make the 100% love for God even stronger and better.
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So when the apparition at Fatima says that people should be consecrated to “my Immaculate Heart” this is leading to Jesus? It doesn’t sound like it.

Too many people begin focusing on Mary. It’s not that anyone here is against Mary. But when adulation for Mary and dedication toward her supersedes that for Christ, there’s a problem. A big one.

It’s not about whether one can ‘love both Jesus and Mary.’ It’s about drawing the line between intercession/honor, and too much dedication.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I haven’t seen all this devotion toward Mary in Orthodox or high Anglican circles. Perhaps I haven’t experienced either enough, but to the extent that I have, I’ve never seen it to the extent I see it in Catholicism.
 
Mary at Fatima asked us to consecrate ourselves to her heart.

That means, we become a part of her essence, the heart symbolizing the essence of a person.

I have devotion to both the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

Mary protects our faith when we consecrate ourselves to her and her heart…she protects our faith in Christ. She brings us that much closer to His Heart, to be more one with Him. With this devotion is tied to Holy Communion.

Think of the Eucharistic miracles…recently a consecrated host was dropped on the floor. It was placed in a glass of water in the sacristry. When someone returned to attend to its proper care, the host had turned into flesh and blood.

The speciman was taken to an independent diagnostic lab. It was found to be of the human heart and the blood a rare form of AB.

The speciman was then sent to New York for further diagnostics, and when it was examined, the flesh was beating.

I don’t need to have these events support or sustain my faith in the Eucharist, but they come up, and it is cause for reflection.

There is nothing of Mary in the sacraments. But Christ received His flesh and blood from His mother.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
So when the apparition at Fatima says that people should be consecrated to “my Immaculate Heart” this is leading to Jesus? It doesn’t sound like it.

Too many people begin focusing on Mary. It’s not that anyone here is against Mary. But when adulation for Mary and dedication toward her supersedes that for Christ, there’s a problem. A big one.

It’s not about whether one can ‘love both Jesus and Mary.’ It’s about drawing the line between intercession/honor, and too much dedication.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I haven’t seen all this devotion toward Mary in Orthodox or high Anglican circles. Perhaps I haven’t experienced either enough, but to the extent that I have, I’ve never seen it to the extent I see it in Catholicism.
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A deeper devotion to the Blessed Mother always leads to a deeper devotion to Christ in my experience. I personally do not have very many Marian devotions, but everyone I know that does a lot of Marian devotions all say that their devotion to the Blessed Mother greatly strengthened their love for Christ.

Now in most of the Orthodox prayer books I own the Theotokos is mentioned much more often than in most Catholic prayer books I own. So that’s something to think about.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
I find them quite frightening and tend to think it puts too much emphasis on Mary and not enough on Christ. I can’t accept it.
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This would be akin to not believing the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary because it might place too much emphasis on the Angel rather than the birth of Christ.

In her apparitions, Mary always points to her Son, not to herself.
 
An approved apparitionis not necessarily authentic though, as far as I understand. It may be authentic, which is different.

I agree that if an apparition was real, it would serve to point to Christ - that doesn’t mean I think they are real, or that they all point to Christ. And look at all this secret Fatima nonsense - it seems to me it is taking people away from the CC, not deeper in.

The Immaculate Heart stuff I am very skeptical about, and that certainly contributes to my skepticism about the apparitions. IMO is is bad doctrine, and so those apparitions cannot be real that call for devotion to Mary’s heart or Christ’s. And that makes me wonder about a lot of the others as well.

I know some people think this is impious, but I find many people seem unaware of the dangers of false apparitions, and are ready to accept them too easily. And that is dangerous, because a false apparition isn’t going to lead to truth, it is going to lead away from it.
 
Tyuiop411 said:
A deeper devotion to the Blessed Mother always leads to a deeper devotion to Christ in my experience. I personally do not have very many Marian devotions, but everyone I know that does a lot of Marian devotions all say that their devotion to the Blessed Mother greatly strengthened their love for Christ.

Now in most of the Orthodox prayer books I own the Theotokos is mentioned much more often than in most Catholic prayer books I own. So that’s something to think about.
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One caveat, however: I would say that a good majority of Marian devotion in the East is centered on the Incarnation more than anything else.
 
Bluegoat said:
An approved apparitionis not necessarily authentic though, as far as I understand. It may be authentic, which is different.

I agree that if an apparition was real, it would serve to point to Christ - that doesn’t mean I think they are real, or that they all point to Christ. And look at all this secret Fatima nonsense - it seems to me it is taking people away from the CC, not deeper in.

The Immaculate Heart stuff I am very skeptical about, and that certainly contributes to my skepticism about the apparitions. IMO is is bad doctrine, and so those apparitions cannot be real that call for devotion to Mary’s heart or Christ’s. And that makes me wonder about a lot of the others as well.

I know some people think this is impious, but I find many people seem unaware of the dangers of false apparitions, and are ready to accept them too easily. And that is dangerous, because a false apparition isn’t going to lead to truth, it is going to lead away from it.
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I too have some similar questions about the Marian apparitions. At the risk of sounding impious, I’m rather skeptical of their authenticity. I especially find the timing of the release of the second secret of Fatima to be far too convenient. Also, as an Orthodox Christian, I find the whole, “conversion of Russia” thing to be, at best, a misguided attempt to fight atheistic communism or a blasphemous attempt to insinuate that the Russian Orthodox are not Christians if taken at worst.
 
Tyuiop411 said:
I’ve asked about Marian apparitions on a predominately Evangelical forum, and the most common answers I got was “it’s demonic” and “Rebuke it in the name of Jesus!”

In fact they said the same thing about St. Faustina’s Jesus visions/apparitions.
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I cannot understand how anyone who reads her book could arrive at that conclusion. My guess is they haven’t actually read it. St. Faustina was among the holiest souls we’ve ever known.
 
I am reading, ‘Crossing the Threshold of Hope’, an interview with John Paul II.

He speaks of the children of Fatima…7, 9, 11 years old…shepherd children…they would take time out to pray the Rosary, then tend sheep and play children’s games…

The Angel of Peace first appeared to them to pray before the Blessed Sacrament for those who neglect Him. This angel was said to be the protector of Portugal. Later the children saw a small cloud on a hill. It happened again…and there at the cloud Mary appeared.

It is also interesting to note that the Carmelites trace their charism of Mary back to the time of Elijah and how he was told to look out the window at the sea for 7 days during a prolonged drought over Israel…and then on the seventh day…there was this small cloud, as small as a hand, that slowly rose over the sea…to become a large cloud of rain.

The Carmelites see that small cloud in Kings as Mary…over the sea, full of grace…and I see the symbol of the cloud as a small hand…being the same hand that gave St. Simon Stock the Brown Scapular…

…And then this small cloud introducing Mary for several days beforehand to the children in Fatima.

How, in 1917, would they know of Russia and the rise of communism, spreading her errors everywhere?..I was in Mozambique in 1974, and on that country’s independence as a Portuguese colony, the headlines of the newspapers declared, ‘America, the Enemy of the World’. And instead of liberating the people, the Leninist Marxist government spent its time confiscating the works of the Church serving the poor, and indoctrinating its people to become materialists. So many millions died afterwards, so much so, that the entire infrastructure was destroyed.

John Paul II says how could these small children realize such prophetic words…and how many peoples’ faiths have been wounded by the errors of materialism, disinformation, and propaganda wars? The Immaculate Heart of Mary is where we go to protect us from such forces.

And prior to leaving this country, it was like the force of a huge and permeating vacuum to draw me into free sex, dissent, disrespect for authority and my parents, and renunciation of my Catholic faith…and my parents’ weekly calls and prayers of their rosaries protected me and preserved me…as well as nightly walks across town with a friend to pray in a Catholic church. So much for fun college days. I see all that protection coming from Mary.

The children foresaw great suffering for the Holy Father. I see that in the papacy of Pius XII as well as Paul VI. John Paul II dedicated his papacy to Mary. And he was the one who was nearly killed by an assassin and attributed Mary to saving his life—the attempt made on the first apparition day of Fatima, May 13.
 
Hi, great topic by the way!! ,im a great believer in Marian Apparitions! i was way from the faith for years and 2 years ago at the age of 27 i felt a “calling” to go to medjigory so i took a pilgrimage by myself and my life as never been the same! I really cant put into words my experience and i have just grew and grew in the faith since! I feel our blessed mother took me by the hand and lead me to her son Jesus!!! Since iv been to knock,holyland,Ephesus (in turkey where our lady lived)etc…The blessed virgin is our mother and all she wants is for her children to convert and turn back to her son jesus! x God bless x:thumbsup:
 
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