C
CatholicFireman
Guest
NOW I know why the conversation is going this way. It’s under “Non-Catholic Religions”. Sorry, I took a very wrong turn. 
I’m out of here. God Bless.
Pax†
I’m out of here. God Bless.
Pax†
- Status
H
Hesychios
Guest
Promoting these new ideas is clearly a widely spreading grass roots endeavor, but it is not Apostolic.
In fact the early Christians commonly taught (and we still do) that the only way to God was through Jesus Christ. Anyone stating “the only way to Christ is through Mary” is making a grave theological blunder, not just another reasonable opinion but a heresy which ought to be suppressed.
But I fear these people make up a large proportion of those petitioning the Hole See of Rome to declare Saint Mary the Mediatrix of All Graces (which sounds even worse from an Orthodox perspective than you can imagine).
This is how Development of Doctrine works, a bit at a time.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Kathmandu,
I just posted on the Infallible teachings of the pope…thread…and was gone yesterday pm…and read some remarks that got me bristling…about the Roman Catholics having little regard or implying this, while the eastern Orthodox Christians suffered many deaths under the communists and this is in regards to Our Lady of Fatima…
On the side here…and I would have to do a search, but in 1983…and you will get more context of this date after you read my post…
That a Fr Herbert Schiffler, Jesuit had just died. He was a Jesuit missionary in Japan, and lived a very short distance from where the atomic bomb had dropped. He survived the blast, being thrown from out of his home into a ditch. He said he was twirling like a leaf. He had his leg broken and became unconscious.
In the end, all 7 German Jesuits survived—as their German country was Nazi and was being destroyed…and they were tested by 200 scientists over a period of time. Many Japanese had died by them.
When asked if they had any idea why they survived, they said they had been faithful to the requests of Our Lady of Fatima.
I believe Fr Arrupe, former head of the Jesuits was 1000 feet from point zero and survived…
This is quite incredible…but we know and believe in the special protection of not only our faith, but our whole being residing in the holy and immaculate Heart of Mary.
I just posted on the Infallible teachings of the pope…thread…and was gone yesterday pm…and read some remarks that got me bristling…about the Roman Catholics having little regard or implying this, while the eastern Orthodox Christians suffered many deaths under the communists and this is in regards to Our Lady of Fatima…
On the side here…and I would have to do a search, but in 1983…and you will get more context of this date after you read my post…
That a Fr Herbert Schiffler, Jesuit had just died. He was a Jesuit missionary in Japan, and lived a very short distance from where the atomic bomb had dropped. He survived the blast, being thrown from out of his home into a ditch. He said he was twirling like a leaf. He had his leg broken and became unconscious.
In the end, all 7 German Jesuits survived—as their German country was Nazi and was being destroyed…and they were tested by 200 scientists over a period of time. Many Japanese had died by them.
When asked if they had any idea why they survived, they said they had been faithful to the requests of Our Lady of Fatima.
I believe Fr Arrupe, former head of the Jesuits was 1000 feet from point zero and survived…
This is quite incredible…but we know and believe in the special protection of not only our faith, but our whole being residing in the holy and immaculate Heart of Mary.
F
FabiusMaximus
Guest
With all due respect, and I’m not trying to second guess your conversion for you, but, if the Mariology concerns you, then why are you converting to Catholicism instead of a denomination that doesn’t do so?
T
TrueLight
Guest
I grew up as a Protestant, so there is no denomination to convert to. If I didn’t feel led to the Church, I would have quite a few options out there. In fact, until recently, I was quite comfortable in my liberal Reformed church.
If Catholicism is defined as a religion whose members worship Mary, then I wouldn’t convert.
Catholics are Christians.
I do believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church established by Christ himself. I believe in apostolic succession. Why would I choose to be outside of the Church after God revealed this to me?
Looking back at my life, I can see how God prepared and led me every step of the way.
I’m not going to let individual groups who take it too far deter me.
T
TrueLight
Guest
Very scary indeed. That is what prayer is for.
C
Cavaradossi
Guest
You know, I have a Roman Catholic friend who became upset upon hearing that in the East, it is believed that the Virgin Mary died and was assumed into heaven after her death. When I pressed her for an answer as to why she felt so upset about it, she told me that it was because, “it was a downgrade for Mary”. “A downgrade,” I wondered, “if even Jesus Christ the Man-God suffered death, why should the Virgin Mary be exempt?” I feel that the Virgin Mary has been elevated above her God-Man Son, much to the spiritual detriment of those who believe in things like that. I honestly hope that the RCC will never make Mary as the Co-Redemptrix and the Mediatrix of all Graces doctrine, but with the way that things have worked in the past, I have a suspicion that I might see that happen within my lifetime.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
That Catholic woman’s expression was her own…I have never heard anyone say the same as that comment.
T
Telstar
Guest
I think I’d like to make a couple of points to try to clear up some common misconceptions.
A very good test of the validity of any vision, is by asking the ‘person’ to do something like making the sign of the cross and/or reciting the Our Father along with us, then we should make sure that there is absolutely no deviation from the known formula of that prayer. If there is, then the seer and anyone else involved should immediately dismiss it, and regard it as a false apparition. There are other tests, like asking the ‘person’ seen, to kiss a crucifix, or to swear their devotion to Jesus Christ either by making the sign of the cross, or by putting their hand on the Bible, to see what the reaction is, and whether or not the task is performed, correctly.
Those are just a few ways to test the authenticity of any vision. If you don’t see these kinds of things in the description of any person’s claimed ‘vision’, that might mean that it’s false. In any of these tests, the ‘vision’ should do whatever it is that is asked, humbly and willingly, without any hesitation whatsoever. If they refuse to do it, or argue that the seer is being ‘unfaithful’ or ‘unworthy’ of their visit to dare to even question them in that way, then most likely it’s demonic.
Since visions have been such a very big part of the 2000 year history of the Catholic Church, there is a lot of experience there about how to ‘test the spirits’ in order to make a fair assessment. Many Saints have been testing them for a very long time. But, apparitions, visions and miracles are very difficult to understand, even for many Catholics, and even more so for people that have been brought up without ever learning very much about them at all. I’m not sure how many other denominations have a lot of experience with the more mystical side of Christianity, but from what I’ve heard from friends, and the people posting in this thread, the entire subject is not very high on the list of ‘hot topics’ for most other faiths. Unfortunately, that makes for most of the ‘negative connotations’ perceived about it.
- Catholics don’t ‘worship’ Mary in the same sense that any Christian worships God, at all… ever. Only God is God. I can’t account for a few people that tend to get a tad carried away in their devotion. But, I don’t think they would ever intentionally ‘slight’ God in any way by their exuberant approach to Mary. We ‘venerate’ her, we admire her for her sanctity, we hold her in very high esteem because she is the Mother of Jesus. She played a pivotal role in His early life, and in the early Church. She was the first to acknowledge herself as a follower of Christ by referring to Him as “my Savior”.
- Nothing that’s revealed, or believed to be true, in connection with any ‘approved’ Apparition, is ever considered to be ‘doctrine’, unless it’s given that distinction by the Magisterium of the Church, itself. At this point, I don’t believe that anything about the messages of Fatima or any of the others mentioned in this thread, has ever been designated in that way. They’re merely recognized as being ‘approved for belief’ (or disbelief) by the faithful, because they don’t contain anything to suggest that any part of the message could be misconstrued as contrary to already established doctrine. In fact, by getting that approval, it means that the message has been found to be efficacious for souls that choose to believe in it. Actual belief is always voluntary, by all members of the Church. But, if the Church has approved them, we shouldn’t do anything to undermine anyone else in their belief of them. It’s up to us to decide for ourselves.
- If there’s anything that’s found in any apparition that could seriously damage the faith of the people by believing it, then those apparitions are always denounced by Church Authorities, and people are advised to avoid them. Some apparitions are obviously false, and it would probably be easy for most devout Catholics to come to that conclusion. For those that are less knowledgeable of the faith, those things may not seem so obvious. That’s why we’re supposed to approach all of them with a very healthy dose of skepticism.
~
Whenever Mary appears to anyone, it’s always because she’s been sent by God to deliver a message. If the intention is to deliver a ‘public message’, like Fatima, it’s usually for a serious reason at a very crucial point in history. Then, there might be some basic similarities with other Marian Apparitions of the past.
A very good test of the validity of any vision, is by asking the ‘person’ to do something like making the sign of the cross and/or reciting the Our Father along with us, then we should make sure that there is absolutely no deviation from the known formula of that prayer. If there is, then the seer and anyone else involved should immediately dismiss it, and regard it as a false apparition. There are other tests, like asking the ‘person’ seen, to kiss a crucifix, or to swear their devotion to Jesus Christ either by making the sign of the cross, or by putting their hand on the Bible, to see what the reaction is, and whether or not the task is performed, correctly.
Those are just a few ways to test the authenticity of any vision. If you don’t see these kinds of things in the description of any person’s claimed ‘vision’, that might mean that it’s false. In any of these tests, the ‘vision’ should do whatever it is that is asked, humbly and willingly, without any hesitation whatsoever. If they refuse to do it, or argue that the seer is being ‘unfaithful’ or ‘unworthy’ of their visit to dare to even question them in that way, then most likely it’s demonic.
Since visions have been such a very big part of the 2000 year history of the Catholic Church, there is a lot of experience there about how to ‘test the spirits’ in order to make a fair assessment. Many Saints have been testing them for a very long time. But, apparitions, visions and miracles are very difficult to understand, even for many Catholics, and even more so for people that have been brought up without ever learning very much about them at all. I’m not sure how many other denominations have a lot of experience with the more mystical side of Christianity, but from what I’ve heard from friends, and the people posting in this thread, the entire subject is not very high on the list of ‘hot topics’ for most other faiths. Unfortunately, that makes for most of the ‘negative connotations’ perceived about it.
A
Angels_Eyes
Guest
Loved your links ‘pablope’.
Something else I would recommend is the book and now movie on dvd called ‘The Rite’ it is all about modern day exorcisms.
On the main thread subject of ‘Marian Apparitions’ I would highly recommend a book called ‘Call of the Ages’ by Thomas W.Petrisko. It is amazing and not only talks about the sites and witnesses but also prophecies that our Blessed Mother foretold.
This book helped me to re-confirm my faith. It was a little scary in parts, especially the parts that are still to happen, in the next few years. But she has a positive message through it all, which is of course great news.
What a blessed gift she has given us all.
A total believer in Apparitions!
C
choliks
Guest
I agree with you that Mary shouldn’t be elevated above or even at par with Jesus. That’s really taking it too far. But I will disagree with you if you implied Christ was “downgraded” when he suffered death. His death wasn’t a downgrade, specially since it’s a laying down of one’s life for the salvation of humanity. We were actually “upgraded” because of His death and resurrection.
Moreover, it was because of Christ, Mary was “elevated” to a level no other human can attain: full of grace, “all nations will call her blessed”, and the theotokos. Hence, she is accorded the highest honor among the Saints.
C
Cavaradossi
Guest
Well, of course, Christ’s death on the cross was also Christ’s victory upon the cross, because Christ’s death and subsequent resurrection conquered death. There’s no “downgrade” implicit there. I just thought it was odd for her to say that Mary was somehow downgraded by death and then a subsequent resurrection and assumption into Heaven (instead of being assumed alive) when that is exactly what we believe happened to our Lord, Jesus Christ.
I do not disagree with the statement that Mary is highest in honor and glory among the saints (including the Cherubim and the Seraphim). I simply find the popular attempts to elevate her into a quasi-Goddess (Mary, Mediatrix of all Graces, Co-Redemptrix, etc.) a disturbing distortion of orthodox belief (and soteriology, as was mentioned earlier).
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Personally I don’t see the issue with Mediatrix or Co-Redemptrix, Seems to me its exactly what the BVM does. And She is very needed in many countries today as we see.
Otherwise someone will have to explain how Mexico was converted? I see no explaination but Mary. An apparition which converts 9-million? Portugal? another mass converstion of a country. So should it be assumed both countries converted through an apparition that never happened?
I get it when your talking about a apparition that maybe one person witnessed. But in the case of Mexico or Fatima, there’s profound supporting evidence. Geez Fatima bought 6 thousand, then 15- thousand the following mth, then 70- thousand the following who witnessed the Sun Dance. The 70 thousand turned into One Million last May. So its pretty apparent the intercession of Mary is still on-going. The Miracle received world wide media attention in 1917 witnessed by the press, muslims, atheists, and christians and scholars who have commented on the event. A break so deep in the laws of nature it cannot be explained. The amount of heat required to dry the rain soaked thousands in ankle deep mud in seconds should have incinerated everyone there
The arguement of evil is seriously lacking. Temptation is the path of evil, not Monthly Confession for the reparation of sinners, weekly Mass, and Daily Rosary Recitation, which “incease’s” one’s submission to the Trinity and the Holy Family and grounds Souls in correct worship of not only the Trinity but “all” God values.
Evil and Idol worship are arguments which retain zero validity and appeal to the unthinking mass, who speak without researching. The fact one should allude to evil shows either a serious lack of understanding or a personal agenda in regards to the Catholic Faith and Christianity. Evil simply doesn’t lead Souls the Christ to temp souls with evil. Most ridiculous concept with zero thought behind it.
Then to add a Johns Biblical Verse to validate the claim is pure foolishness. We see the work of evil in scripture. We see Israel in the destruction of the Temple. The failure comes through not following Gods Word. The result of this tragedy is War, Nations destroyed the Good Martryed and much suffering. You have a message from Mary confirmed by God, then greatly ignored by man? Man ignores God in this situation for the exact same reasons they ignored the Prophets.
Its a Grave Error.
.
Otherwise someone will have to explain how Mexico was converted? I see no explaination but Mary. An apparition which converts 9-million? Portugal? another mass converstion of a country. So should it be assumed both countries converted through an apparition that never happened?
I get it when your talking about a apparition that maybe one person witnessed. But in the case of Mexico or Fatima, there’s profound supporting evidence. Geez Fatima bought 6 thousand, then 15- thousand the following mth, then 70- thousand the following who witnessed the Sun Dance. The 70 thousand turned into One Million last May. So its pretty apparent the intercession of Mary is still on-going. The Miracle received world wide media attention in 1917 witnessed by the press, muslims, atheists, and christians and scholars who have commented on the event. A break so deep in the laws of nature it cannot be explained. The amount of heat required to dry the rain soaked thousands in ankle deep mud in seconds should have incinerated everyone there
The arguement of evil is seriously lacking. Temptation is the path of evil, not Monthly Confession for the reparation of sinners, weekly Mass, and Daily Rosary Recitation, which “incease’s” one’s submission to the Trinity and the Holy Family and grounds Souls in correct worship of not only the Trinity but “all” God values.
Evil and Idol worship are arguments which retain zero validity and appeal to the unthinking mass, who speak without researching. The fact one should allude to evil shows either a serious lack of understanding or a personal agenda in regards to the Catholic Faith and Christianity. Evil simply doesn’t lead Souls the Christ to temp souls with evil. Most ridiculous concept with zero thought behind it.
Then to add a Johns Biblical Verse to validate the claim is pure foolishness. We see the work of evil in scripture. We see Israel in the destruction of the Temple. The failure comes through not following Gods Word. The result of this tragedy is War, Nations destroyed the Good Martryed and much suffering. You have a message from Mary confirmed by God, then greatly ignored by man? Man ignores God in this situation for the exact same reasons they ignored the Prophets.
Its a Grave Error..
H
Hesychios
Guest
This is the ‘sacred cow’ syndome.
We have seen even here that when a person calls her merely ‘very good’ it is met with suspicion, yet superlatives in any greater form are accepted without question.
Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone … "
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I lived in Portugal for a short while, and the roommate I stayed with came from a little hamlet outside of the episcopal seat of Leiria. The family wanted to take me to Fatima…and I noted that there weren’t too many trees or forests around that area.
We went up to the church. But the father saw someone, a very kind and sweet looking elderly man. He went out of the car to greet him. The father came back to us and told me that the old man had seen the miracle of the sun; in fact, 70,000 people had come to see it, including many atheists who were later converted. There was no mention of it in the American newspapers because the baseball world series was going on .
I lived among Latin European Catholics who had devotion to Mary, and it is lived out differently than the devotional, even two sided image you see. There, Mary is more a living companion in their walk with Jesus.
I experienced Mary overseas. It was after Midnight Mass at Christmas, my relationship born with her and the infant Jesus. Before that I was a devotee primarily of St. Francis of Assisi. Now experiencing her, she had a different constitution–no prior receptacle to sin, total joy and light…all to enlighten the way of Jesus…and to soften the hard edges of life, and making the Cross lighter. I saw or heard or experienced nothing else.
With the members of Folk Liorii…my misspelling of this movement of Chiara Lubeck from Italy…who were among us in work…they experienced Mary as a resting place and an ideal to hold on to while working among the poor and suffering.
I think our experiences are something someone should see and become a part of by observing and listening, and seeing how this relationship with Mary is lived out.
We went up to the church. But the father saw someone, a very kind and sweet looking elderly man. He went out of the car to greet him. The father came back to us and told me that the old man had seen the miracle of the sun; in fact, 70,000 people had come to see it, including many atheists who were later converted. There was no mention of it in the American newspapers because the baseball world series was going on .
I lived among Latin European Catholics who had devotion to Mary, and it is lived out differently than the devotional, even two sided image you see. There, Mary is more a living companion in their walk with Jesus.
I experienced Mary overseas. It was after Midnight Mass at Christmas, my relationship born with her and the infant Jesus. Before that I was a devotee primarily of St. Francis of Assisi. Now experiencing her, she had a different constitution–no prior receptacle to sin, total joy and light…all to enlighten the way of Jesus…and to soften the hard edges of life, and making the Cross lighter. I saw or heard or experienced nothing else.
With the members of Folk Liorii…my misspelling of this movement of Chiara Lubeck from Italy…who were among us in work…they experienced Mary as a resting place and an ideal to hold on to while working among the poor and suffering.
I think our experiences are something someone should see and become a part of by observing and listening, and seeing how this relationship with Mary is lived out.
C
CatholicFireman
Guest
Wow, that was beautifully said. Thank you! I feel the same way about Our lady as you have mentioned. God Bless you.
Pax†
F
FabiusMaximus
Guest
Please don’t misunderstand me. I do not imply that Catholicism or Catholics promote the worship of Mary. But I do say that the line becomes increasingly blurried when certain doctrines are proclaimed and emphasized, when praise becomes a bit excessive, and when devotions seem too extreme (from my perspective).
I realize that as a Roman Catholic you are under no obligation to either accept the apparitions, join a Marian devotion group, or emphasize the “power of Mary.” That being said, these are all components of Catholicism, and to me in particular, it seems rather odd to just see it around you and simply dismiss it. It’d be like adhereing to the Assemblies of God but ignoring the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. OK, you could technically do it but it is still a big deal.
Personally I think it’d be nice if the Catholic Church came out with an official statement like: “We recognize and uphold the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary, she is the best example of human devotion and obedience to God, and is rightfully Queen of Heaven. However, the Church also stresses that Mary was put to this great level soley and entirely via the power of God, not through her own, being a mere human. While we venerate the Blessed Virgin, the distance between her and the most Holy Trinity is infinite, and that can never be forgotten.”
And I also understand that the Catholic Church is an institution with over a billion people world wide and has much better things to do then attempt to qualm my personal reservations, but it’d still be nice. I was impressed when Pope Benedict a year or two ago reprimanded Italian Catholics for praying more to Padre Pio than to Jesus Christ. I wish there’d be more.
At any rate, I hope you don’t take my comments as a personal swipe against you. I’m not very far away from where you are, I am just not at the point where I’m willing to commit to any church just yet.
F
FabiusMaximus
Guest
With all due respect to Mexican Catholics, but the Indians at the time would have believed anything. They nearly converted to Spaniard-worship with Hernan Cortes arrived in Tenochtitlan. You can’t make an argument exclusively based on conversion numbers.
At any rate, I realize that I’m not a Catholic and therefore have no right to preach to a Catholic about his own faith, but the major problems, I feel, with Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix is not necessarily the doctrines in themselves, because the explanations are generally a lot less dramatic than the names indicate. The problem has to do with A) imposing such a belief on all members (which currently is not the case, but I’m referring to a hypothetical scenario in which Co-Redemptrix is declared dogma), and B) that it leads some people to over-emphasize Mary at the expense of Christ.
T
theistgal
Guest
The whole debate reminds me of an amusing episode of the TV show “Scrubs” where two of the doctors (J.D. and Elliot) were both named as “Co-Chief Residents”, but when they got set up in their office, the signs on the door read “Elliot Reid, Chief Resident” and “John Dorian, Co-Chief Resident”.
For the rest of the episode, J.D. was trying to convince everyone that he was really equal to Elliot, but no one believed him, because after all, he was only “Co-Chief”!
- Status