Thoughts on Mary: sinless

[OldeThom]

OK, but Mary was not in the post-Fallen state - that is a core teaching of the Church. So, why would you expect that every human in the pre-Fallen state would sin, when we have the example of the pre-Fallen angels, not all of whom sinned?

Gosh, I’m not quite certain what you are trying to get me to say. Yes, I understand that about Mary as the Church teaches it. As far as I know, and what I have been taught all my life, is that there were only two human beings ever in a “pre-fallen” state, Adam and Eve, and they were sinless right up until they rebelled against God and all hell broke loose (pardon the metaphor.) You see, quite simply, my naive belief about Mary did not include her being free of sin just because God found her “full of grace”. It is a foreign concept to me. As was stated to me in an earlier message to me generated from this post forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=262086

“It isn’t necessary for us to believe that the Immaculate Conception was needed, only that we believe it is true, and by faith it actually happened.”

So I am not looking to prove or disprove anything, it is about belief: either it is true or it is not. There in lies my search and my prayer.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[VociMike]

Thom,

Earlier I answered why it is important to believe in Mary’s sinlessness - because God revealed it to us and wants us to believe it. Now I’d like to offer my idea as to why it was important to God that Mary be sinless.

In the Incarnation God, in the Divine Person of Jesus Christ, the Logos, united divine nature and human nature. Divine nature is by definition perfect. For the human nature component, would it not be fitting to unite perfect human nature as well? In the Incarnation would it not be fitting to unite God’s divine nature with human nature as God intended, before the Fall? Can there even be a perfect unification of divine nature and human nature if the human nature is not perfect, is corrupted?

So if we accept that it makes sense that Jesus would unite divine nature with perfect human nature, and if in the Incarnation Jesus truly took his human nature from his mother, as he did, then his mother had to have a perfect, uncorrupted human nature. And that is exactly what happened, and what God chose to reveal to us. It is not only beautiful, it makes perfect sense.

 

[ShemariahBeans]

Thom,

Earlier I answered why it is important to believe in Mary’s sinlessness - because God revealed it to us and wants us to believe it. Now I’d like to offer my idea as to why it was important to God that Mary be sinless.

In the Incarnation God, in the Divine Person of Jesus Christ, the Logos, united divine nature and human nature. Divine nature is by definition perfect. For the human nature component, would it not be fitting to unite perfect human nature as well? In the Incarnation would it not be fitting to unite God’s divine nature with human nature as God intended, before the Fall? Can there even be a perfect unification of divine nature and human nature if the human nature is not perfect, is corrupted?

So if we accept that it makes sense that Jesus would unite divine nature with perfect human nature, and if in the Incarnation Jesus truly took his human nature from his mother, as he did, then his mother had to have a perfect, uncorrupted human nature. And that is exactly what happened, and what God chose to reveal to us. It is not only beautiful, it makes perfect sense.

I think OldeThome “gets it!”

 

[OldeThom]

I think OldeThome “gets it!”

Thanks to you, Mike, Della, Tom, Fr. Vincent and host of others … I certainly do! Great information and warm feelings. Thank you one and all.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[quiet52]

Asking questions about Mary to the Catholic faithful, in my mind anyway, was and will be a risk I am willing to take to further my understanding … knowing all too well the importance of Mary in Church teaching and tradition. I was quite hesitate to even post my question, knowing it might be akin to throwing chum for the sharks while wading in water up to my neck.

You have a way with words.
You asked an important question. This forum helps us, who have taken beliefs such as this for granted, to better articulate them. Please keep wading – but consider it an adventure, not danger.

 

[marymol]

Happy Feast of Queenship of our bl.Mother - 8/22 !

It is always good to reread the faithful answers that reinforce the good and glorious truths of our faith !

In a world that can at times seem gloomy and difficult and the journey wearisome, our Father has given us much help and reasons for trust ; His Mercy towards our Mother is a glimpse of His goodness - " My soul magnifies The Lord " !

That can include us being mindful of The Oneness of our Lord , in His Divinity , with The Father and being able to see The Father , in Him !

One issue in the background of our minds may be - if our Lord had done same for us , may be we too would be lot holier and this could even be the subtle lie in The Garden playing out again - " see , The Father has not been good enough - He has withheld something precious !"

Yet, having been sinless and living in a fallen world must have been such a sword of sorrow for our bl.Mother - seeing all the oppression of the jewish people, death and diseases all around …and The Promised Savior waiting -’ being subject to them '!
All the other challenges in her life - the rejection and humiliations and the seven sorrows - and she rose up to each , with the aid of The Spirit …

’ Let it be done unto me …’ courage enough to know that those words could be her death sentence , even when she goes to St.Elizabeth singing the magnificat !

Human nature , in its perfection , able to love and trust again , inspite of all the challenges and yet with freedom enough to cast it all out as our first parents did …

The same freedom we all are given time and again every day - to choose for God or against …and when we fail , the invitation to run , to The Queen of Mercy if so we desire , from the humility of recognition of our needs and of those around us and willingness to be grateful for all the aid The Father want us to have !

Blessings !

 

[OldeThom]

{snip}

Yet, having been sinless and living in a fallen world must have been such a sword of sorrow for our bl.Mother - seeing all the oppression of the jewish people, death and diseases all around …and The Promised Savior waiting -’ being subject to them '! All the other challenges in her life - the rejection and humiliations and the seven sorrows - and she rose up to each , with the aid of The Spirit …

Blessings !

What a wonderful wistful way with words After my prayers yesterday I was struck with this realisation myself, almost visualising what she surely went through all her life culminating with seeing her son Jesus, knowing full well who He was and what He had to do, hanging on a cross and dieing. I know what I would feel seeing one of my own children on a cross! But what a joy and relief it must have been to see Him risen, whole and pure! It was a break-through moment for me. Thank your for your kind words and wisdom.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[emeraldisle]

It is important to know and believe in the sinlessness of Mary because God has chosen to reveal it to us through his Church. That is to say, it is important to know and believe because God thinks it is important for us to know and believe.

If God told us in his written word that Mary was sinless then I would believe she was. However Mary is part of humanity and God clearly tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

.

 

[emeraldisle]

If I could have created my own mother free from sin, I certainly would have. Wouldn’t you?

It would be nice if there was no sin, wouldn’t it? However we live in the real world where all people are sinners and Mary was human so she was a sinner like us all.

Think about it. The original woman was created free from sin, it’s the way we should all be born. If it wasn’t for our fallen nature we would have been.

Again I say wouldn’t be nice if there was no sin but the reality is all of humanity is sinful.

God simply saved her before she fell, the rest of us He saves after we fell.

Think about it, if God saved Mary before she was born a sinner then why wouldn’t He do this for us all?

Jesus saved her from sin prior to her conception, because He could.

Jesus could save us all from sin prior to our conception but He doesn’t and He didn’t for Mary. Jesus could just destroy the devil right now but He doesn’t. Is it true that Jesus does all things according to the plan and purpose of God.

He needed an immaculate mother one who was never in sin, original or otherwise.

Why did Jesus need a immaculate mother who was never in sin?

After His birth, small wonder she remained sinless.

Where is your evidence for this idea?

Can you imagine sinning knowing your Son knew your every thought?

Can you imagine Gods children sinning when they know their Father knows their every thought?

.

 

[VociMike]

If God told us in his written word that Mary was sinless then I would believe she was. However Mary is part of humanity and God clearly tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

.

Your replacement of “in his total revelation” to “in his written word” is simply a false tradition of men. We simply reject that false standard.

And if “all have sinned” according to your verse, then Jesus has sinned according to your verse.

 

[emeraldisle]

First of all, when Paul stated that “all have sinned” he was addressing the fact that Jews and Gentiles alike are sinners, iow, all are sinners whether they are the children of Abraham or not. He was not addressing culpability or personal sin. Also, if we are to take Paul’s words at face value, ripped out of their context, it would mean that Jesus also sinned. He was human too. Yes?

That why God tells us the following in His written word;

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

Also, Mary was born free from concupiscence–the desire to sin. This was a result of her Immaculate Conception.

Regarding the IC idea well the Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading, Proof from Scripture, states, “No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.”

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

.

 

[marymol]

Thank you Olde Thorm for your own kind and gracious ways and words - as others have noted too and from a sincere and charitarble Catholic heart !

And there must be prayers of St.Thomas and of many others that come to our aid as well !

May you be richly blessed as you continue your journey and become a great blessing , in The Church !

 

[allhers]

Here are some verses from the Bible to consider too.
I have more and will post more later.

Ezek. 44:2 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark - Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark of thy might. - Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary’s bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary’s bones were never claimed, they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

 

[Axion]

It would be nice if there was no sin, wouldn’t it? However we live in the real world where all people are sinners and Mary was human so she was a sinner like us all.

Fallacy of circular argument. Your belief that no one can be free of sin is used to “prove” that no one can be free of sin!

Of course if Mary were a sinner Jesus would have been formed from her “corrupted, sinful” nature - and be himself corrupted and sinful.

Jesus could save us all from sin prior to our conception but He doesn’t and He didn’t for Mary. Jesus could just destroy the devil right now but He doesn’t. Is it true that Jesus does all things according to the plan and purpose of God.

God could have made us all sinless without sending His Son, but He didn’t. That’s not how He works. He wants us to come to Him and accept His grace freely. Mary made her free choice in a different way, at the Annunciation. But because She was to give her humanity to the Son of God, Mary needed the most perfect redemption of all - at her conception.

 

[allhers]

Sorry I lost the source for this, but…more than likely I got it either from this site or EWTN. (If I find the source, I’ll post it.)

Jesus was born of the flesh of Mary. She had to have had a sinless human nature for Jesus to have a sinless human nature.

Christ had a human nature and a divine nature.
God made Mary sinless at conception,and Jesus inherited a sinless human nature from her. Christ is the New Adam and Mary is the New Eve.

Mary in Scripture, in Luke 1:28, the angel Gabriel greets her with the phrase: “Hail, Full of Grace” – a phrase which most modern Bibles mistranslate as “highly favored one” or even “highly favored daughter.” Yet those words are not in the original Greek. In the Greek, it is “Kecharitomenae” – literally, “Full of grace” or “Perfectly graced” implying an “overflowing” or “abundance” of grace.
So, if Mary is “Full of grace,” how can this be if she was a sinner? One cannot be sinful and “full of grace” or “perfectly graced.”
Mary must have been Baptized into Christ, right? (How else can a person be “full of grace”?) So, the only question is: When was Mary made this?

We Catholics say that it was at the first moment of her conception in the womb of her mother. Why? Because of Genesis 3:15. Here, God speaks to satan, saying:

"I will place enmity between you (the serpent / satan) and the woman (Eve, or Mary the New Eve), and between your seed (sin /death) and her seed (the Messiah: Jesus), and He (Jesus) will strike at your head (i.e., crush your power), even as you strike at His heel (the Crucifixion).

This verse, according to both Jews and Christians, is the Proto-Evangelion: the first prophecy of the Messiah. And it reveals to us that the Mother of the Redeemer will be placed in opposition to satan, and not under his dominion. Thus, this New Eve could pass a sinless humanity onto her Son, the New Adam.

 

[allhers]

Regarding the IC idea well the Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading, Proof from Scripture, states, “No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.”

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

.

Even the Immaculate Conception was believed by the first Christians:

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception comes to us from the Syrian-speaking Church in the East – the branch of early Christianity which was closest in culture to the original, Jewish community of believers.

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

 

[allhers]

Let’s not forget this prophecy in the Old Testament either.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

 

[runandsew]

Regarding the IC idea well the Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading, Proof from Scripture, states, “No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.”

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

.

That would be the formal sufficiency of scripture, Catholics don’t hold to that, and the bible doesn’t teach that. We believe in material sufficiency of scripture.

 

[pismopal]

The posts regarding the sinlessness of Mary have been wonderful and I hesistate to even mention this thought of my own but here it is anyway. If I was God and could do anything I wanted…wouldn’t I WANT my Mother to remain sinless and be assumed into heaven?
If someone thinks that the answer could be no…I would like to hear the evidence for that.

 

[VociMike]

The posts regarding the sinlessness of Mary have been wonderful and I hesistate to even mention this thought of my own but here it is anyway. If I was God and could do anything I wanted…wouldn’t I WANT my Mother to remain sinless and be assumed into heaven?
If someone thinks that the answer could be no…I would like to hear the evidence for that.

Jesus Christ does seem to take his own commandment “Honor thy Father and Mother” quite seriously, doesn’t he?