Thoughts on Pornography

[Island_Oak]

I read a great quote this morning that seems relevant to this: “There is a God-shaped vacuum in the heart of every person and it can never be filled by any created thing. It can only be filled by God, made known through Jesus Christ.”
-Blaise Pascal.

The book went on to note the priest citing the passage “…closed his eyes and prayed for all those who turn to the created thing, expecting much and receiving nothing.”

How fitting to the topic of this thread.

 

[miguel]

AlanFromWichita:

I feel an onset of depression coming on. I am in terrible shape right now, but it could be over in only minutes or days. I’m going to try to stay off these forums, in general, as much as possible until I get a grip. I love helping others but sometimes I can’t help myself. Some of you must have noticed changes in me, and have written me PMs that I apologize I haven’t even been all the way through.

Yes, “God making a point” is an excellent caption for the photo and that’s exactly what I intended it to be, as well as possible cathartic (is that the right word) options for those who wish to use it instead of wanting to bash their own sets…

I have my own story about the “girls gone wild” commercial. God made them beautiful. But he didn’t make them beautiful for guys like me to gawk at them, tempting as it is sometimes. He made them beautiful to attract the opposite sex for marriage and children, the other sources of beauty in this world. One night recently, I gave in to the temptation. So I’m deriving enjoyment from other peoples sin…sin that leads them to hell…sin that corrupts anyone else who is watching. God is watching me. I know it. The next morning (the next few days actually), instead of joining my beautiful family on vacation, I’m dealing with a water main leak under my driveway to the tune of 4500 bucks. God making a point. But I take solace from the fact that he loves me. If he didn’t, he would have looked the other way.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Girls gone wild.

Men gone wild.

Everybody’s gone wild.

For a minute there, I though I had. Sorry for such a depressing post, if it was even depressing; I don’t know so I try not to presume. I guess I just wanted everyone to know I was having a bit of a Bad Hair day. I think I’ll go get a slice of cheese to go with my whine.

More about this “letting go” thing, though, I think that spiritual perfection happens in the Dark Night stanzas right about where the beloved gently caused the lover’s senses to be suspended. That is true giving up. If we try to do it while we are on this earth, striving for spiritual perfection, then we are in for one heck of a ride in spiritual warfare, as the demons get more sneaky and subtle, and even pretend to be virtuous instead of vicious. I suppose I’m getting what I asked for; I wanted to reach toward spiritual perfection, but I really underestimated how weird it can get.

This is how weird it was earlier when I posted that last message. I’ve gotten almost complete control over my emotions, and dealing with certain things caused me to wonder “how I should feel” at this time. It was depressing, not in the sense that I felt really sad and suicidal or anything, but that I couldn’t decide how to feel about something.

Now that was weird. Not too long ago, I had no choice. My feelings simply came and went. I’ve tried very hard to master them, especially anger and frustration. Well, I guess I got what I wanted, but the next test came almost right away. Now that I can control my feelings, how should I go about doing it? It’s a whole lot simpler to just get sad or happy, than it is to be in a situation where I am confused over which I should be.

Maybe it’s the curse ever since Adam. If you want control and knowledge, then you are burdened with having to decide how to use it.

This life is wonderful, folks. I don’t regret for a minute that I have sought this path, although earlier I was very confused. I honestly didn’t know whether to laugh, cry, or what, because it all seems so superficial. It’s like having no feelings at all. I think maybe it’s actually a sign of progress, but even though I did nothing particularly bizarre except write a dumb post and change my profile to something dumb (attention getting I think in hindsight, as I will probably later think of this post) and act a bit confused, it was every bit as troubling to my soul as when I felt I was in the worst state of psychosis. Now that this episode is past, I feel once again like I’m all brand new and seeing life for the first time.

It’s weird, but I think I like this world. I think the next one can wait a while, because I definitely don’t think God’s done with me yet.

At any rate, I’m back to about as normal as I probably get these days. Sorry if I alarmed anyone. Hopefully your faith is that whatever happens to me or anyone else, God has everything covered. If you have that much faith, then please help me find it too.

Alan

 

[mlchance]

wcknight:

I can’t see a justification for either, BUT you can not legislate morality.

Nonsense. One can certainly legislate morality as well as immorality.

Martin Luther King once said, “We hear the familiar cry that morals can’t be legislated. This may be true, but behavior can be regulated. The law may not be able to make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me.”

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Nonsense. One can certainly legislate morality as well as immorality.

Martin Luther King once said, “We hear the familiar cry that morals can’t be legislated. This may be true, but behavior can be regulated. The law may not be able to make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me.”

– Mark L. Chance.

I’m confused. It would seem the quote from MLK contradicts your initial statement, at least in the way I believe that you “can’t legislate morality.”

My interpretation of this phrase has always been, "the law is not sufficient to make everyone morally responsible" which I got from your reference, and your reference says that is “certainly true.”

To say the law has nothing to do with morals, I consider quite another thing. The blanket statement that “you cannot legislate morality” is not refuted by your references, in the context that I think it’s most often claimed. Therefore, to give it the blanket label of “nonsense” actually contradicts your own references.

Not only that, but I don’t think the law should necessarily even try to legislate morality per se. For example, I am very much against having gay marriages, and even gay “civil unions” and other code words for gay marriage. To apply “you can’t legislate morality” to this situation, although I’ve heard it done, is patently absurd. Perhaps this is more the context you are implying. It isn’t about limiting immoral behavior, it’s about publicly endorsing it. Now here’s the rub; I agree with the intent of the Supreme Court throwing out sodomy laws, because frankly I don’t think we should be paying the police to watch people’s bedrooms. If they “do their thing” in public, there are already laws against that just like with non-gays. What I didn’t understand, was conservatives and democrats alike thought that would be a stepping stone to gay marriage, and either it was a self-fulfilling prophecy or just next on the gay agenda list. Arresting gays for what they do in private and giving them award certificates for having done so are two different issues in my book.

Slogans and catch phrases such as “you can’t legislate morality” are certainly abused. Without context they are pretty much just hot air. However, with context there’s no telling if they’re true because they are only relative to context, and are not absolute truths. I’ve heard many talk radio interviews that consisted of little more than arguing over such ambiguous statements as this one, along with others such as “zero tolerance” and “three strikes and you’re out” and “no blood for oil” and other silly things that make good chants but lousy philosophy.

Alan

 

[goravens]

Island Oak:

I read a great quote this morning that seems relevant to this: “There is a God-shaped vacuum in the heart of every person and it can never be filled by any created thing. It can only be filled by God, made known through Jesus Christ.”
-Blaise Pascal.

The book went on to note the priest citing the passage “…closed his eyes and prayed for all those who turn to the created thing, expecting much and receiving nothing.”

How fitting to the topic of this thread.

I love that! Thanks for sharing, islandoak.

 

[NFPfamily]

My thoughts on the Girls gone wild footage- totally devastating.

I saw some talk shows a while back that described how the creater manipulated these women to act so wild. It was really sad to see the aftermath, with these young women talking about how it ruined their lives.

The creator would throw GGW parties and offer money and/or other items (t-shirts, etc.) to get them to do certain things. Like, “hey, do (this or that) and I’ll give you a t-shirt! Now, do (whatever) for 20 bucks.” They would also give free drinks to get the girls really drunk. They were acting on the impulsiveness of the girls, trying to get everyone to do bad things so the ones they really paid attention to would do worse things.

I’ve never seen these videos, but from hearing these women talk, I am disgusted at the entire concept. These aren’t professionals or being paid a wage for doing this (which is disgusting enough in itself), but they are girls wanting to go out and be mischevious, paying a hefty moral price for it. I’m not saying they had no idea what they were getting themselves into, but it’s so sad to hear such regret over something that is immortilized in a widely distributed video.

Just imagine your daughter/ sister/ whoever getting caught up in a moment and being exploited like that, having guys watching her on those videos. It’s disgusting and the creator should be ashamed of himself. I hope he realizes what he’s done before it’s too late.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

NFPfamily:

Just imagine your daughter/ sister/ whoever getting caught up in a moment and being exploited like that, having guys watching her on those videos. It’s disgusting and the creator should be ashamed of himself. I hope he realizes what he’s done before it’s too late.

Once I saw a guy from the “man” show (which I saw only once or twice and really didn’t think was that well done) interviewing one of those girls, and asked what she would do if her mother were watching. She said “hi, mom!” into the camera and smiled, as she lifted her shirt. Funny it didn’t occur to me thay may have been drunk. I don’t have any sisters, but I tried to imagine what it would be like if I did, and my mom saw them like that.

Alan

 

[FiremanFrank]

jrabs

Porn is too readily available and too adicting

Very true.

I am a 45 yr old divorced/annulled single male. I’ve been celibate ever since my divorce in '96. By choice, I don’t have cable t.v. - only internet.

I have been using S4f filtering on my home computer to protect myself from temptation. Just recently, I have been trying to do without that filtering tool, though I’m not sure that I can completely trust myself in that regard (yet? ever?).

That stuff is just way TOOOOO easy to come across on the net. It’s even prevalent in my workplace (some of the guys I work with think it’s fun to stuff porno mags in my overnight bag).

I want to be strong enough to be above that, but I must remember that even with God’s graces, that we humans remain in a fallen state.

That’s just the way it is …

Sorry about what happened in your marriage.

God help us!

AMEN!

 

[donosti]

Yes,I have noted how the internet is plagued by pornography. Fortunately I have my system filtered so I don’t have problem with that. I’m an artist,I draw and paint,one of my main subjects is the human figure,I have done some nudes…Of course nude in art is not pornography, I only say this because I don’t feel aroused beholding a nude model,maybe because I’m used to it.I see nudity as something natural and not as something sinful.I agree with everyone in this thread,pornography degrades women and men alike.

 

[Lorrie]

Is it degrading to women? No more then its degrading to men. I’m sure most of these people know what they’re doing and what they’re involved in. If men and women want to show themselves its their business. Is someone pointing a gun to our heads making us watch it? No. If one doesn’t like then don’t watch it or things affiliated with it.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I’m curious whether people in places where “National Geographic” nudity exists have problems of this sort? Are those people sinning by exposing themselves, or does it lead them into temptation? If not, then why doesn’t satan tempt them the way he does in societies where it is taboo to dress like that?

Is it possible that the very fact that seeing naked bodies is morally unauthorized plays a role in keeping it interesting for those who are compelled toward it? Is it maybe like a Christmas present you know roughly what it is but can’t quite see it until you take the paper off?

Or are those places I speak of the same ones where marriages are like 75% by force, and often very young teenage women, and lots of AIDS?

Alan

 

[FiremanFrank]

Lorrie

Is it degrading to women? No more then its degrading to men.

True.

I’m sure most of these people know what they’re doing and what they’re involved in.

Yes and No.

While they might “know” what they are doing (they are making a personal and willful decision), are they really “aware” of what they’re doing" (spiritual ramifications).

Probably not.

If men and women want to show themselves its their business.

Not quite. People’s personal sins can easily spill over into the rest of the world becoming the sins of that society, where they can affect YOU and ME.

Is someone pointing a gun to our heads making us watch it? No.

No, but they still have committed a sin against us none-the-less.

Moral Theology calls their actions a sin against Charity (i.e., they do not care what might happen to us if we should fall into temptation because of their actions).

This type of good theology also ends the argument of whether or not a man or a woman has the “right” to dress in a provocative manner. If those people were truly charitable to us in Love, then they would not.

If one doesn’t like then don’t watch it or things affiliated with it.

SEE ABOVE STATEMENT

 

[FiremanFrank]

AlanFromWichita

I’m curious whether people in places where “National Geographic” nudity exists have problems of this sort?

Good question.

Are those people sinning by exposing themselves, or does it lead them into temptation?

What we really need here is for an expert on those cultures to speak to us on how that society works.

If not, then why doesn’t satan tempt them the way he does in societies where it is taboo to dress like that?

One distinct possibility is that their society does now view sex exactly the same way as we do.

Is it possible that the very fact that seeing naked bodies is morally unauthorized plays a role in keeping it interesting for those who are compelled toward it?

No, I don’t think so. It seems that because our society has placed an EMPHASIS on sex and the body (Lust), that it has caused us to react differently toward certain stimuli than it would have to certain other cultures.

Is it maybe like a Christmas present you know roughly what it is but can’t quite see it until you take the paper off?

No, I think it has more to do with Lust and the mentality of self-pleasuring.

Or are those places I speak of the same ones where marriages are like 75% by force, and often very young teenage women, and lots of AIDS?

I would really have to know a lot more about the history of that society to give you an intelligent answer to the above question. But it seems that you might be making a bit of an over generalization here. As it appears that many of those cultures that you are referring to no longer go without clothing.

If that is the case, then a more modernized culture might also = a more perverse culture. Maybe that is where the problem might truly exist.

I think that we can not allow ourselves to forget one thing here, and that is what the Bible teaches us about the Fall. That after that Fall, after Man and Woman had sinned against God - they covered themselves up.

That says alot Alan …

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

felra:

But you can find an intellectual and scholarly justification for pornography?

Where? I can find intellectual and scholarly arguments for pornography but I have never found any intellectual or scholarly justification for pornography!

There really isn’t any ‘justification’ for pornography.

 

[siamesecat]

AlanFromWichita:

I’m curious whether people in places where “National Geographic” nudity exists have problems of this sort? Are those people sinning by exposing themselves, or does it lead them into temptation? If not, then why doesn’t satan tempt them the way he does in societies where it is taboo to dress like that?

Is it possible that the very fact that seeing naked bodies is morally unauthorized plays a role in keeping it interesting for those who are compelled toward it? Is it maybe like a Christmas present you know roughly what it is but can’t quite see it until you take the paper off?

Or are those places I speak of the same ones where marriages are like 75% by force, and often very young teenage women, and lots of AIDS?

Alan

I think in these cultures, children grow up naked, and only cover up some parts of their bodies when they reach adulthood. They dont have the access to clothing we do, and its probably too hot for it. Kids are brought up thinking nudity is normal. Here, kids laugh at the word “underwear” because theyve been taught that that kind of thing is dirty and private. In these culturesm, nudity is a fact of life and they have no reason to think otherwise. I dont think theres much of a problem with lustful thought, because adults are so used to seeing this everyday. In American, topless women dont just walk around, so its more exciting to see one.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

FiremanFrank:

If that is the case, then a more modernized culture might also = a more perverse culture. Maybe that is where the problem might truly exist.

I think that we can not allow ourselves to forget one thing here, and that is what the Bible teaches us about the Fall. That after that Fall, after Man and Woman had sinned against God - they covered themselves up.

That says alot Alan …

That’s interesting. The more modernized a culture is, the more advanced they are at using “knowledge” to “control” the world. The more we control the world, the more of us think we don’t need to depend on God anymore. There could very well be a correlation that’s been growing ever since the fall. Is this drifting in the same direction you were going?

Alan

 

[Riley259]

Bobby A. Greene:

As a mature college educated adult and Navy veteran, I am worldly enough to say that I have been exposed to porn and acknowledge that it has no socially redeeming value whatsoever.

I am so convinced that pornography has no useful purpose on this planet that it is one of the only vices that I would like to see banned. I understand that if porn was made totally illegal, then that would drive up the value and demand for the garbage, but I am so offended by it that I cannot find any intellectual or scholarly justification for it.

While I would advocate the legalization of prostitution, pornography is simply too degrading to the human condition for any justification.

Am I missing something here?! Your first two paragraphs are dead on in terms of what we should do about the scurge of pornography but what were you thinking in the last paragraph? By what moral code can you possibly advocate the legalization of prostitution which is about as morally corrupt and pitiful as it can get. It’s almost like two different people wrote your post. Care to explain the inconsistency?

 

[FiremanFrank]

AlanFromWichita

Is this drifting in the same direction you were going?

Sort of …

***But you said it much better than I ever could have! ***

You’ve got good questions Alan … and you have good answers as well !!!

frank

 

[miguel]

Lorrie:

If men and women want to show themselves its their business. Is someone pointing a gun to our heads making us watch it?

If I want to throw trash out my car door window in Yosemite, that’s my business. No one holds a gun to anyone’s head to make them look at it. If you don’t like seeing trash on the side of the road in Yosemite, don’t look at it.