Thoughts on SACRAMENTUM CARITATIS?

[Frank_Fenn]

while it is an excellent statement, sadly there will be no reconciliation with the sspx. at least not at the moment

 

[marvi43]

Credo in unum Deum,
Patrem omnipoténtem,
factórem cæli et terræ,
visibílium ómnium et invisibílium.
Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum,
Fílium Dei Unigénitum,
et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula.
Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero,
génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri:
per quem ómnia facta sunt.
Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem
descéndit de cælis.
Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto
ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.
Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto;
passus, et sepúltus est,
et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras,
et ascéndit in cælum, sedet ad déxteram Patris.
Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória,
iudicáre vivos et mórtuos,
cuius regni non erit finis.
Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem:
qui ex Patre Filióque procédit.
Qui cum Patre et Fílio simul adorátur et conglorifícatur:
qui locútus est per prophétas.
Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam.
Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum.
Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum,
et vitam ventúri sæculi. Amen.

WOW! Can you imagine if the whole Church said the Nicene Creed in Latin? It would sound so reverant and so beautiful. One can only hope.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

so the media outlets that have reported this as a return to the Tridentine Mass are wrong…?

 

[Rykell]

It seems so, per tonight’s publication from Zenit:

Pius V Missal

When presenting the document to journalists today, Cardinal Angelo Scola, patriarch of Venice, answered questions on the possibility of a papal document aimed at re-establishing the Pius V Missal. Cardinal Scola, who was relator general for the synodal assembly, said that he did not have information on such a document, and added that the key to using this missal is that it not become a source of division within the Church. He explained: "It would be a contradiction of terms if the liturgical act became a beginning of division of the Church.
Cardinal Scola continued: “In the history of the use of the rites in the Church it has never happened that the introduction of a new rite coincided with the abolition of the preceding one.”

"This means balancing the path of the Eucharist with respect for the objective indications … none of the above observations should cast doubt upon the so-called Paul VI rite, or on the meaning, worth or decisive importance of the liturgical reform.

 

[LuxAurumque]

Apparently there is at least one goof in the English Translation, who would have thought?

On the use of the Latin language, S. Caritatis’ English translation says:

I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, such liturgies could be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers (183) of the Church's tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung.

In German, it says “it is good” (to celebrate it Latin) not “could” (it does say “should” in regards to prayers and Chant):

Es ist gut, wenn außer den Lesungen, der Predigt und den Fürbitten der Gläubigen die Feier in lateinischer Sprache gehalten wird; ebenso sollen die bekanntesten Gebete (183) aus der Überlieferung der Kirche in Latein gesprochen und eventuell einige Teile in gregorianischem Choral ausgeführt werden. Ganz allgemein bitte ich darum, daß die zukünftigen Priester von der Seminarzeit an darauf vorbereitet werden, die heilige Messe in Latein zu verstehen und zu zelebrieren sowie lateinische Texte zu nutzen und den gregorianischen Choral zu verwenden.

In Italian, it also says “it is good”

è bene che tali celebrazioni siano in lingua latina

In Latin, it says “it is favorable”, in Spanish it also says “good” (“sería bueno”).

Ref: closedcafeteria.blogspot.com/2007/03/translation-error-in-s-caritatis.html

 

[Caesar]

Fr. Zuhlsdorf was discussing the translation issue in in an article here:

wdtprs.com/blog/2007/03/bad-translation-in-english-version-of-exhortation-about-latin/

 

[Trident59]

I guess I tend to agree with Wolsely on this one. To me it was a weakkneed document sounding like it was written by one of our liberal politicians. I was really hoping for REAL leadership from our Pope. Instead we get more vague statements that can be taken any number of ways.

Have to pray harder.

 

[reason]

WOW! Can you imagine if the whole Church said the Nicene Creed in Latin? It would sound so reverant and so beautiful. One can only hope.

It only sounds reverent and beautiful to you because Latin sounds strange and exotic to American ears. It’s just another language, except in the case of Latin, it happens to be a dead language. If you heard the Nicene Creed recited in French or Italian, it would sound just as reverent and beautiful, but to a French or Italian person, it wouldn’t be very exotic, no more than English is to you.

It’s all relative.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I guess I tend to agree with Wolsely on this one. To me it was a weakkneed document sounding like it was written by one of our liberal politicians. I was really hoping for REAL leadership from our Pope. Instead we get more vague statements that can be taken any number of ways.

Have to pray harder.

Let one of our prayers be for humility. It’s a remarkable trait of some “traditionalists” that they believe themselves alone to be correct or correctly interpreting the will of God, and the rest of the Church, including the Pope and the hierarchy, to be wrong. An alternate possiblilty is that we already HAVE what could be called REAL leadership. Some people just aren’t getting things precisely their way. The little hang nail of that, however, is that God didn’t make THEM pope (much to their consternation, I’m sure).

 

[tee_eff_em]

Let one of our prayers be for humility. It’s a remarkable trait of some “traditionalists” that they believe themselves alone to be correct or correctly interpreting the will of God, and the rest of the Church, including the Pope and the hierarchy, to be wrong. An alternate possiblilty is that we already HAVE what could be called REAL leadership. Some people just aren’t getting things precisely their way. The little hang nail of that, however, is that God didn’t make THEM pope (much to their consternation, I’m sure).

tee

 

[Galandriel]

Actually I read that “could be” is not a direct translation of the writing and seems, it is only done in the English version.

read more about the translation:

What Does The Prayer Really Say?
Slavishly accurate translations & frank commentary - by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf o{]:¬)
Bad translation in English version of Exhortation about Latin
Posted in SESSIUNCULUM, WDTPRS | Tuesday, March 13th, 2007 | Trackback

For a long time I have warned people about bad English translations of papal documents.

There are methodological problems in that the documents are no longer composed in Latin.

The Latin text, which is the official text, is itself a translation.

However, since no on refers to the Latin text… few people know this. Thus, they are always working with compromised versions of documents.

Moreover, the texts they are working with were those released at the time of the presentation of the document, even though the LATIN is itself revised before publication in is final official form in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis. But no one goes back to revise the vernacular versions in keeping with the changes in the Latin Lot’s of people are misquoting documents because the vernacular docs themselves were never updated.

That said, let us take a look at the Exhortation’s paragraph on Latin in the liturgy and see if there is a disconnect. I tip my biretta to “stefano” who was alert and caught this before I did.

Latin: exceptis lectionibus, homilia et oratione fidelium, aequum est ut huiusmodi celebrationes fiant lingua Latina.

In Latin, the phrase aequum est means “it is reasonable, proper, right”. It can be rendered as “it is becoming”, to use a somewhat archaic turn of phrase…

English: with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, such liturgies could be celebrated in Latin.

WOAH…. wait a minute… “could be” celebrated? That changes the entire impact of what the Pope said. All the of the other languages reflect one concept and the English alone says another thing entirely. The English implies that the value of Latin is, at best, a neutral thing. The Latin and all the other languages imply that Latin is positive.

I think we must conclude that whoever did the translation into English chose not to stick to the original text which they were given to work from.

link:

wdtprs.com/blog/2007/03/bad-translation-in-english-version-of-exhortation-about-latin/

[Edited by Moderator for length]

 

[Wolseley]

It only sounds reverent and beautiful to you because Latin sounds strange and exotic to American ears. It’s just another language, except in the case of Latin, it happens to be a dead language. If you heard the Nicene Creed recited in French or Italian, it would sound just as reverent and beautiful, but to a French or Italian person, it wouldn’t be very exotic, no more than English is to you.

It’s all relative.

Maybe, maybe not. I like listening to Latin; but I also like to listen to Italian being spoken. French, I can do without. I’m not bad at German myself, but I have to admit it sounds harsh and gutteral.

One of the loveliest languages I have ever listened to being spoken is Russian. One of the ugliest, that I despise hearing, is Arabic.

(shrug) Your mileage may vary.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Maybe, maybe not. I like listening to Latin; but I also like to listen to Italian being spoken. French, I can do without. I’m not bad at German myself, but I have to admit it sounds harsh and gutteral.

One of the loveliest languages I have ever listened to being spoken is Russian. One of the ugliest, that I despise hearing, is Arabic.

(shrug) Your mileage may vary.

Sung German! Bleah! I’m astonished that Wagner ever made it.

You should hear the “Reproaches” sung in Aramaic on Good Friday. Soul-searing.

 

[John_Higgins]

I think it’s a fine document, which, like his first encyclical, focusses on love. I know those who thought Benedict would take the papal throne and be a Rottweiler are disappointed. Tough luck; the office moderates the man.

John

 

[Uxor]

Let one of our prayers be for humility. It’s a remarkable trait of some “traditionalists” that they believe themselves alone to be correct or correctly interpreting the will of God, and the rest of the Church, including the Pope and the hierarchy, to be wrong. An alternate possiblilty is that we already HAVE what could be called REAL leadership. Some people just aren’t getting things precisely their way. The little hang nail of that, however, is that God didn’t make THEM pope (much to their consternation, I’m sure).

I look at myself as a traditionalist, I’m obedient to the Pope.
What about the liberal catholics who support birth control, abortion, homosexual lifestyles and take Holy Communion, God didn’t make them Pope.

 

[kangnamdragon]

I think it’s a fine document, which, like his first encyclical, focusses on love. I know those who thought Benedict would take the papal throne and be a Rottweiler are disappointed. Tough luck; the office moderates the man.

John

I disagree. I don’t think he has changed any positions or moderated. There is no inconsistency between love and his “Rottwieler reputation”.

 

[InnocentIII]

Why is it that traditionalists / conservative Catholics complain bitterly about the likes of Cd Mahony / Bishop Brown / Archbishop Weakland when they rule by fiat but expect His Holiness to act like an attack trained police dog. Think about it! If there are priests and bishops who are going to ignore straight out commands such as the ban on artificial contraception in Humanae Vitae why would they suddenly obey a command to say the mass in Latin? This is the same twisted logic used by the AIDS crowd - people won’t obey the Pope when he says be absitinent but will obey when he says wear a condom.

The Pope cannot enforce compliance by arresting errant bishops or priests. What he can do and is doing is stating or restating clearly certain key doctrines / disciplines of the Church in relation to the Eucharist so as to encourage the reform of the reform and to remove the underpinnings of those who try to spin Church documents their way.

Two examples. On the positioning of the Tabernacle: We had a bishop who went around telling everyone that the Tabernacle had to be hidden away because “that was what the Vatican ordered”. The Pope has now made it clear that the Tabernacle must be visible and prominent to anyone entering the church. This will not make some liberla priests rush out and move the Tabernacle but it will make it harder for them to pull the Vatican wool over people’s eyes.

On Latin: The Pope has called for seminarians to be trained in Latin. This is a necessary first step because few priests have learned it and those that have on the old days have forgotten it. If the Pope said “All masses must be in Latin tomorrow” bishops and priests would plead special consideration right, left and centre because “we don’t know how to say it”. By promoting the study of Latin by new priests the Pope is laying the foundation for the possible use of Latin in the future.

The Pope’s real power lies in the selection of bishops. As men like Cd Rigali, Abp Finn and others are placed in dioceses they will be able to use these authoritative statements to promote the reform of the reform. The Pope’s authority has always been more one of moral suasion than legal coercion and this Pope is doing a first rate job of it.

 

[tee_eff_em]

What he can do and is doing is stating or restating clearly certain key doctrines / disciplines of the Church in relation to the Eucharist so as to encourage the reform of the reform and to remove the underpinnings of those who try to spin Church documents their way.

…

On Latin: The Pope has called for seminarians to be trained in Latin. This is a necessary first step because few priests have learned it and those that have on the old days have forgotten it.

And even this is a re-statement. Canon 249 already calls for seminarians to be “well versed” in Latin.

tee

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I look at myself as a traditionalist, I’m obedient to the Pope.
What about the liberal catholics who support birth control, abortion, homosexual lifestyles and take Holy Communion, God didn’t make them Pope.

I don’t see your point. They’re disappointed in him, too. No, God didn’t make them pope either, much to THEIR consternation.

 

[Uxor]

I don’t see your point. They’re disappointed in him, too. No, God didn’t make them pope either, much to THEIR consternation.

I’m saying you can throw all the traditionalist in the same camp as disobedient to the Pope, nor more than I can say all Catholics who say they are not traditional are heretics.