Thoughts on singing patriotic songs at mass

[smp501]

Hi! This past Sunday (the day before Memorial Day in the U.S.), our recessional hymn was “America the Beautiful”. The more I thought about it, the more I disliked it. I used to be Evangelical, and back then we had American flag in the church. This was during the beginning of the Iraq war, and there was always this sentiment that America was the “good guys” and that God was on “our side.” It always made me feel uneasy.

Don’t get me wrong, I love my country. I do. However, I don’t want to sing about how great it is when I’m at mass. I go to mass to be in the presence of the Word Made Flesh, to offer myself up and to have my soul fed on the eternal Bread of Life that has been around since long before the good o’ USA and that will be around long after.

Is this a real concern or am I just being a little too sensitive? Thoughts?

 

[ccmcmg]

Although it was contained in the hymnal provided for the Mass, I also didn’t particularly like it, especially on Pentecost.

However, as much as I love praying in song, especially during/at Mass, it isn’t the focal point of the Mass, therefore, I suffer through it, and pray that God either approves, or at the least, pardons me for singing it.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Hi! This past Sunday (the day before Memorial Day in the U.S.), our recessional hymn was “America the Beautiful”. The more I thought about it, the more I disliked it. I used to be Evangelical, and back then we had American flag in the church. This was during the beginning of the Iraq war, and there was always this sentiment that America was the “good guys” and that God was on “our side.” It always made me feel uneasy.

Don’t get me wrong, I love my country. I do. However, I don’t want to sing about how great it is when I’m at mass. I go to mass to be in the presence of the Word Made Flesh, to offer myself up and to have my soul fed on the eternal Bread of Life that has been around since long before the good o’ USA and that will be around long after.

Is this a real concern or am I just being a little too sensitive? Thoughts?

I don’t see it as a problem, because whenever and whereever I’ve gone to Church, the central focus is always the Mass. I think celebrating the country at a daily Mass once or twice a year in a closing song is fine, and sure beats the nonsense of riding America into the ground and blaming it for all that’s wrong with the world.

Remember, a lot of people have adopted Catholicism throughout history because of the Church’s flexibility on cultural matters.

Besides, I think there are more pressing issues to deal with at Mass, like people who don’t sing or pray and act look like they don’t want to be there on a consistent basis, think they can go to Communion just because or how some folks dress.

 

[smp501]

Although it was contained in the hymnal provided for the Mass, I also didn’t particularly like it, especially on Pentecost.

Yeah, don’t get me started on those. Two years ago the parish bought the “Gather” Hymnals from GIA. It’s half Protestant songs (that I sang in church 15 years ago) and half Catholic songs written between the 60s and the 90s. But that’s a discussion for another day…

 

[Mintaka]

Teeeeeeechnically, there’s no such thing as a Recessional song. The Mass is over, we’ve gone in peace, and we can say thanks be to God without any music afterwards of any sort.

The liturgical consequence is that, if you want, you can do stuff as a recessional that you might not do during Mass. (The tactful way to do it is to play an instrumental recessional, and then sing the big piece of music that didn’t really fit Mass.)

However, it’s also true that “America the Beautiful” is not just a patriotic song, but a patriotic hymn that is structured as a prayer to God for our nation’s Christian morals.

God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

God mend thine ev’ry flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law.

It also prays that all of us will find ourselves in the Heavenly Jerusalem, and that Americans will also be part of the New Earth.

O beautiful for patriot dreams
That see beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears.

America, America,
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness,
And ev’ry gain divine.

That’s not a science fiction verse; it’s an eschatological verse. There are no more tears in God’s new Jerusalem, because He will wipe every tear from our eyes. It’s about living in the US now so as to be prepared for life after the Last Judgment.

That’s why it was approved as a hymn for use at Mass.

PS - If you don’t like the localization, there’s always Bernard of Cluny’s Latin poem, “De contemptu mundi,” which includes some beautiful verses that have been turned into the Latin hymn “Urbs Sion aurea.” In English translation it’s the hymn “Jerusalem the Golden.”

 

[ccmcmg]

Teeeeeeechnically, there’s no such thing as a Recessional song. The Mass is over, we’ve gone in peace, and we can say thanks be to God without any music afterwards of any sort.

The liturgical consequence is that, if you want, you can do stuff as a recessional that you might not do during Mass. (The tactful way to do it is to play an instrumental recessional, and then sing the big piece of music that didn’t really fit Mass.)

However, it’s also true that “America the Beautiful” is not just a patriotic song, but a patriotic hymn that is structured as a prayer to God for our nation’s Christian morals.

God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

God mend thine ev’ry flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law.

It also prays that all of us will find ourselves in the Heavenly Jerusalem, and that Americans will also be part of the New Earth.

O beautiful for patriot dreams
That see beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears.

America, America,
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness,
And ev’ry gain divine.

That’s not a science fiction verse; it’s an eschatological verse. There are no more tears in God’s new Jerusalem, because He will wipe every tear from our eyes. It’s about living in the US now so as to be prepared for life after the Last Judgment.

That’s why it was approved as a hymn for use at Mass.

PS - If you don’t like the localization, there’s always Bernard of Cluny’s Latin poem, “De contemptu mundi,” which includes some beautiful verses that have been turned into the Latin hymn “Urbs Sion aurea.” In English translation it’s the hymn “Jerusalem the Golden.”

I actually love the song America the Beautiful, and many other patriotic songs. I just prefer a different song for the last hymn. Doesn’t really affect me one way or another; just a personal preference. Don’t worry, there are plenty of other songs that I don’t think are appropriate to the moment as well. But that’s just me. It isn’t a big deal, overall. Personally, I wanted to sing the Pentecost songs with more fervor and enthusiasm than like ‘dirges’ or funeral songs. But it wasn’t my parish, and it isn’t going to make or break my Mass.

I still consider the parting hymn as part of my celebration of Mass, and prayer to God. Again, personal preference; no big deal. Mass isn’t the only time I sing or pray to God, so I can do so privately or when I get to the car, if I have more to ‘sing/pray’ to Him.

 

[Joe_5859]

Hi! This past Sunday (the day before Memorial Day in the U.S.), our recessional hymn was “America the Beautiful”. The more I thought about it, the more I disliked it. I used to be Evangelical, and back then we had American flag in the church. This was during the beginning of the Iraq war, and there was always this sentiment that America was the “good guys” and that God was on “our side.” It always made me feel uneasy.

Don’t get me wrong, I love my country. I do. However, I don’t want to sing about how great it is when I’m at mass. I go to mass to be in the presence of the Word Made Flesh, to offer myself up and to have my soul fed on the eternal Bread of Life that has been around since long before the good o’ USA and that will be around long after.

Is this a real concern or am I just being a little too sensitive? Thoughts?

Maybe a little of both.

Honestly, I don’t much care for it either. It never used to bother me until a priest I knew who was a former military man and very much a patriot told me the first thing he would do when moved to a new parish where they had the American flag in the sanctuary was to remove it. Not the right place for it. Since then, I am more sensitive to such patriotic displays in church.

It wouldn’t bother me a lot, though, even though it does bother me a little. As Mintaka said, the song is not just patriotic. It is also asking for God’s blessings. So I can see that side of it. We do want God to bless our country, even though it is not the be-all, end-all of our existence.

 

[SMHW]

In general I don’t have a problem with America the Beautiful. I think this last Sunday should have been reserved for Pentecost songs, however. (And it was at my parish where we often do sing America the Beautiful. I think Pentecost is possibly the most under-celebrated feast/solemnity of the Church year, but that is a discussion for another thread.)

I think that the sentiments expressed by this particular song are more in the thanksgiving and memorial sense than they are political.

I do think that one of the positive liturgical reforms that came about after Vatican II (although I don’t know that Vatican specifically addressed it) was the removal of flags from the sanctuary. Most parishes around here have their flags in the narthex.

 

[EasterJoy]

Teeeeeeechnically, there’s no such thing as a Recessional song. The Mass is over, we’ve gone in peace, and we can say thanks be to God without any music afterwards of any sort.

The liturgical consequence is that, if you want, you can do stuff as a recessional that you might not do during Mass. (The tactful way to do it is to play an instrumental recessional, and then sing the big piece of music that didn’t really fit Mass.)

However, it’s also true that “America the Beautiful” is not just a patriotic song, but a patriotic hymn that is structured as a prayer to God for our nation’s Christian morals.

God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

God mend thine ev’ry flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law.

It also prays that all of us will find ourselves in the Heavenly Jerusalem, and that Americans will also be part of the New Earth.

O beautiful for patriot dreams
That see beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears.

America, America,
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness,
And ev’ry gain divine.

That’s not a science fiction verse; it’s an eschatological verse. There are no more tears in God’s new Jerusalem, because He will wipe every tear from our eyes. It’s about living in the US now so as to be prepared for life after the Last Judgment.

That’s why it was approved as a hymn for use at Mass.

PS - If you don’t like the localization, there’s always Bernard of Cluny’s Latin poem, “De contemptu mundi,” which includes some beautiful verses that have been turned into the Latin hymn “Urbs Sion aurea.” In English translation it’s the hymn “Jerusalem the Golden.”

Yes, but the song is about America–and means the United States of America, at that, and not all of America–hence, the song talks about alabaster “cities” not a single alabaster “city.” The verses are not obviously Christian so much as vaguely deist. That reflects the progressive “Enlightenment” dream of making our nation into a heaven on earth, not a song about aiming for admission to the New Jerusalem.

It’s an OK song, but I’d stick to the early verses and not launch off into the alabaster cities stuff. The songwriter went off the rhetorical rails a bit with that. It is better-suited to the ballpark than to church. We have plenty of blatantly and unapologetically Christian songs to sing at church.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Teeeeeeechnically, there’s no such thing as a Recessional song. The Mass is over, we’ve gone in peace, and we can say thanks be to God without any music afterwards of any sort.

The liturgical consequence is that, if you want, you can do stuff as a recessional that you might not do during Mass. (The tactful way to do it is to play an instrumental recessional, and then sing the big piece of music that didn’t really fit Mass.)

However, it’s also true that “America the Beautiful” is not just a patriotic song, but a patriotic hymn that is structured as a prayer to God for our nation’s Christian morals.

God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

God mend thine ev’ry flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law.

It also prays that all of us will find ourselves in the Heavenly Jerusalem, and that Americans will also be part of the New Earth.

O beautiful for patriot dreams
That see beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears.

America, America,
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness,
And ev’ry gain divine.

That’s not a science fiction verse; it’s an eschatological verse. There are no more tears in God’s new Jerusalem, because He will wipe every tear from our eyes. It’s about living in the US now so as to be prepared for life after the Last Judgment.

That’s why it was approved as a hymn for use at Mass.

PS - If you don’t like the localization, there’s always Bernard of Cluny’s Latin poem, “De contemptu mundi,” which includes some beautiful verses that have been turned into the Latin hymn “Urbs Sion aurea.” In English translation it’s the hymn “Jerusalem the Golden.”

Technicalllllllllly the Mass isn’t over till the priest reverences the altar (usually with a kiss) So if they start the “songs” before that they BECOME apart of the Mass. Unfortunately

 

[pianistclare]

Yup. We’re not even required to have a closing hymn, technically, and in closing is the only place we ever use it.
Our Lady the Immaculate Conception is the patroness of the United States. I think she wouldn’t mind. When so many are taking God out of our country you’d think we’d appreciate the support our faith gives to servicemen and servicewomen.
I don’t see anything wrong with it. Most churches have the Papal flag and the US flag somewhere. The Mass concludes with the final blessing and dismissal. Anything after that is not technically “in Mass”.

Teeeeeeechnically, there’s no such thing as a Recessional song. The Mass is over, we’ve gone in peace, and we can say thanks be to God without any music afterwards of any sort.

The liturgical consequence is that, if you want, you can do stuff as a recessional that you might not do during Mass. (The tactful way to do it is to play an instrumental recessional, and then sing the big piece of music that didn’t really fit Mass.)

However, it’s also true that “America the Beautiful” is not just a patriotic song, but a patriotic hymn that is structured as a prayer to God for our nation’s Christian morals.

God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

God mend thine ev’ry flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law.

It also prays that all of us will find ourselves in the Heavenly Jerusalem, and that Americans will also be part of the New Earth.

O beautiful for patriot dreams
That see beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears.

America, America,
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness,
And ev’ry gain divine.

That’s not a science fiction verse; it’s an eschatological verse. There are no more tears in God’s new Jerusalem, because He will wipe every tear from our eyes. It’s about living in the US now so as to be prepared for life after the Last Judgment.

That’s why it was approved as a hymn for use at Mass.

PS - If you don’t like the localization, there’s always Bernard of Cluny’s Latin poem, “De contemptu mundi,” which includes some beautiful verses that have been turned into the Latin hymn “Urbs Sion aurea.” In English translation it’s the hymn “Jerusalem the Golden.”

 

[pianistclare]

Technicalllllllllly the Mass isn’t over till the priest reverences the altar (usually with a kiss) So if they start the “songs” before that they BECOME apart of the Mass. Unfortunately

That’s really nitpicky.
Complain to the pastor.
If this is the worst thing that happens at your parish, you are blessed.

 

[pianistclare]

Yeah, don’t get me started on those. Two years ago the parish bought the “Gather” Hymnals from GIA. It’s half Protestant songs (that I sang in church 15 years ago) and half Catholic songs written between the 60s and the 90s. But that’s a discussion for another day…

Oh please. It’s one of the best hymnals on the market.
Everything from traditional to more recent compositions.
The only problem we have is the thousands of liturgy expert in the pews who give a thumbs down to everything. At least we can still worship in this country.
Let’s try counting our blessings for a change.
When children are being beheaded for being Christian…I think we can be more charitable to the musicians of our parishes.

 

[eightydeuce82]

That’s really nitpicky.
Complain to the pastor.
If this is the worst thing that happens at your parish, you are blessed.

No that’s what we would call an abuse and not following the rubrics! Were Catholic BTW were are the definition of nit picky. I’m a Veteran and in the words of Cardinal Arinze there is a place for such songs! At a Picnic NOT AT MASS!

 

[eightydeuce82]

Oh please. It’s one of the best hymnals on the market.
Everything from traditional to more recent compositions.
The only problem we have is the thousands of liturgy expert in the pews who give a thumbs down to everything. At least we can still worship in this country.
Let’s try counting our blessings for a change.
When children are being beheaded for being Christian…I think we can be more charitable to the musicians of our parishes.

Children are being beheaded and Christians killed for being Obedient to Christ think we could be obedient to his Church?

Again another great thing Cardinal Arinze said was to sing Catholic songs at Mass!

Maybe you should watch the whole thing

youtube.com/watch?v=EZSYj8PRi7g

 

[unstoppable_II]

…
Is this a real concern or am I just being a little too sensitive? Thoughts?

Christians are being martyred for their faith all over the world, and you’re worried about a song after mass?

 

[eightydeuce82]

Christians are being martyred for their faith all over the world, and you’re worried about a song after mass?

I’m worried about obedience! Yes. This goes way beyond a song…This attitude is what’s gotten us to where we are at today.

So you don’t want clown masses…eh Christians are being killed everywhere

So your worried about women priests…eh there are Christians being killed in the middle east!

So your worried about liturgical abuse…eh don’t worry there’s much greater things to worry about.

And so its gone lets just throw obedience out the window let the usher consecrate the hosts and bring in the rock bands!

 

[ccmcmg]

Christians are being martyred for their faith all over the world, and you’re worried about a song after mass?

Small things can become big things (this isn’t a big thing, and wasn’t purported to be, nor should it be), but it is a ‘thing’.

There are huge major problems in the world that outweigh mine; should I ignore them because they aren’t important to anyone but me? Can I skip my mortgage payment because of the ways many large banks cheated us over the years? That’s a small thing compared to a big thing… People in many countries don’t have ANY food or milk; should I go ahead and drink the spoiled milk since they can’t?

We can show preferences and dislike certain things without lessening the problems or the world; no one said that this was the biggest problem we face.

I think, for many of us, since it was Pentecost, preference should have completely been given to Pentecost and songs to the Holy Spirit (I would have preferred it, myself). Does it make the Mass invalid or illicit? Nope. Is it a daily issue? Nope. This forum was created for people to ask questions and have discussions in a safe and usually accurate place. Just because someone else’s concern isn’t my own doesn’t make it any less valid.

 

[ccmcmg]

Oh please. It’s one of the best hymnals on the market.
Everything from traditional to more recent compositions.
The only problem we have is the thousands of liturgy expert in the pews who give a thumbs down to everything. At least we can still worship in this country.
Let’s try counting our blessings for a change.
When children are being beheaded for being Christian…I think we can be more charitable to the musicians of our parishes.

My friend,
I wasn’t being critical at all of the musicians or liturgists of the parish or Church. But that doesn’t mean I can’t have preferences and enjoyment of a different song that I might find more appropriate. Comparing beheadings to the choice of an exit hymn…not even close to the same.

 

[eightydeuce82]

My friend,
I wasn’t being critical at all of the musicians or liturgists of the parish or Church. But that doesn’t mean I can’t have preferences and enjoyment of a different song that I might find more appropriate. Comparing beheadings to the choice of an exit hymn…not even close to the same.

Did you happen to watch my little video response of the great Cardinal addressing this very issue? Its pretty good!

You are absolutely correct about the beheading’s BTW No comparison.

But plenty of Catholics have died for the small things and remaining obedient over the last 2000 years. I think we can show them respect by being obedient also.

I’m a Veteran I served my country. I’m proud of my country do I want to hear patriotic or hear applause for Veterans at Mass. NO! As Pope Benedict said "

Whenever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment"