Thoughts on the gay cake case

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There is a fundamental difference between the beliefs of individuals and acting on those beliefs. As long as the hatred is a personal conviction and the person does not act on it, there is no problem. Of course this is because I do not believe in “thought crimes”, unlike… 😉
Unlike who?

It can’t be me as I have never heard of a ‘thought crime.’ Certain thoughts may not be healthy but it is not a crime to think anything.
 
Well, that highlights a major issue with liberal democracies. If the assumption is made that the “common good” does not objectively exist (is merely a subjective matter) and, therefore, that there is no way - even in principle - to adjudicate between conflicting claims, the “management of conflicting perceptions and opinions” is NOT merely difficult, it is IMPOSSIBLE.
What you say is very true and my part of the world has experienced an escalation in what are now termed ‘hate crimes’ because rather than celebrate difference, some see difference as threat.
The problem is that advocates of “liberal democracies” do not get this or choose to ignore it on blind faith that “things will just work themselves out” given human good will. They have abandoned the very means by which conflicting views can possibly be adjudicated - sound ethical thinking - for the sake of reifying subjectivity and their faith that human beings will just naturally stop swinging fists where the noses of others happen to be.
Now we’re cooking. 👍

This is exactly what I was getting at. 🙂

And I love ‘Wish You Were Here’ as well. :bounce:
 
There is a fundamental difference between the beliefs of individuals and acting on those beliefs. As long as the hatred is a personal conviction and the person does not act on it, there is no problem. Of course this is because I do not believe in “thought crimes”, unlike… 😉
…unlike, for example, Jesus? ("…has committed adultery in his heart…")

Criminal thoughts are indicators of moral disorder and will eventually be acted upon if the thinker seriously entertains and doesn’t properly deal with them.
 
…unlike, for example, Jesus? ("…has committed adultery in his heart…")

Criminal thoughts are indicators of moral disorder and will eventually be acted upon if the thinker seriously entertains and doesn’t properly deal with them.
Well adultery isn’t a crime in Western democracies - and I do believe Jesus said those seeking to stone the woman had no right do so as they were not so innocent?

By the way, where was the man???
 
Well adultery isn’t a crime in Western democracies - and I do believe Jesus said those seeking to stone the woman had no right do so as they were not so innocent?

By the way, where was the man???
Not the teaching I was referring to. See Matthew 5:22,28.
 
What is it about gays and bakeries
It always seem to be the same situation
Maybe a stand up comedian could come up with a good punch line
You know a gay couple walk into a bakery
 
My retort wasn’t so much directed at this specific instance, more of a trend of businesses being attacked for upholding their beliefs.
Ah yes, I misread your post. I thought you had been told Asher’s bakery had shut down.

Apologies. :flowers:
 
Enumerate them, please. That was the point of making the list. I am not a mind reader.
Oh, c’mon you, I did better than that, I told you how you can resolve any question if you subscribe to the relevant premise. Just the same as you’ve done for your premise!!
 
Why don’t you save me the bother and tell me.
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment."

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

Thought crimes, no?
 
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment."

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

Thought crimes, no?
I would say no. I’m not a fundamentalist and thus don’t interpret every word of the Bible literally. I would not interpret Jesus word’s to mean being angry with someone or feel lust towards them is a crime.

I would understand term ‘judgement’ to mean the ‘final judgement.’ The term ‘subject’ would suggest the outcome of the judgement is unknown.

Jesus use the term ‘in his heart’ referring to our spiritual state in that we should not actively and deliberately foster feelings of anger and lust. He is not suggesting we should control every thought that comes into our heads as that is impossible. It’s nurturing the thought by dwelling on it.
 
I would say no. I’m not a fundamentalist and thus don’t interpret every word of the Bible literally. I would not interpret Jesus word’s to mean being angry with someone or feel lust towards them is a crime.

I would understand term ‘judgement’ to mean the ‘final judgement.’ The term ‘subject’ would suggest the outcome of the judgement is unknown.

Jesus use the term ‘in his heart’ referring to our spiritual state in that we should not actively and deliberately foster feelings of anger and lust. He is not suggesting we should control every thought that comes into our heads as that is impossible.
It seems odd that you would be so certain as to what Jesus is “suggesting” or not. It also seems that the INABILITY to control or choose which thoughts to entertain and which not to would be an indicator of some kind of mental or intellectual dysfunction. Why shouldn’t we be able to “control” our own thinking and deliberately “intend” the direction pursued by determining what does “come into our heads?”

In other words, you seem to be claiming that Jesus didn’t actually come to heal or save us from ourselves but was content with leaving us floundering in our intellectual muck. Somehow, I think Jesus was completely able to know and control what entered his own mind. In fact, from his remark about Nathaniel - “Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile,” (John 1:47) it is pretty clear that human beings are supposed to know and be in control of our own thinking.
It’s nurturing the thought by dwelling on it.
Doubtful. There is no requirement that to control the line of one’s thinking or what enters one’s mind a person has to “dwell” on particular thoughts. Just the opposite actually. You are in control of the direction of your thinking by actively determining that, not by running from, fixating on or avoiding thoughts. “Dwelling on a thought” in the way you suppose is precisely what a lack of control would look like.

Now, here YOU go derailing your own thread. Are you doing so deliberately or is this intended to be a metaphor to demonstrate that we are “not able to control what comes into our own -]heads/-] threads?” 😃

To bring this back on topic…

Not being able to control one’s thinking is a tangential issue that leads to the gay individual claiming they are incapable of controlling their attractions AND using that dysfunction to justify being permitted to “marry” those to whom they happen to be attracted, i.e., not just excused for their sin, but permitted to indulge it. It is a slippery concession that leads inevitably down the road to Flip Wilson’s “The devil made me do it” 😃 or to hard determinism. Pick your poison.
 
It seems odd that you would be so certain as to what Jesus is “suggesting” or not. It also seems that the INABILITY to control or choose which thoughts to entertain and which not to would be an indicator of some kind of mental or intellectual dysfunction. Why shouldn’t we be able to “control” our own thinking and deliberately “intend” the direction pursued by determining what does “come into our heads?”.
It is odd to me I seem certain to you as to what Jesus was suggesting. But then, you know I didn’t intend my words to be taken in the manner you have stated.

I have never heard a psychologist, psychiatrist or therapist say we can control every thought that comes into our heads, nor read a clinical study to that effect - if you have well and good, but I don’t think so as I don’t think you are serious about this line of argument.
In other words, you seem to be claiming that Jesus didn’t actually come to heal or save us from ourselves but was content with leaving us floundering in our intellectual muck. Somehow, I think Jesus was completely able to know and control what entered his own mind. In fact, from his remark about Nathaniel - “Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile,” (John 1:47) it is pretty clear that human beings are supposed to know and be in control of our own thinking.
That is not what I am claiming - but then you already know that as well.
Doubtful. There is no requirement that to control the line of one’s thinking or what enters one’s mind a person has to “dwell” on particular thoughts. Just the opposite actually. You are in control of the direction of your thinking by actively determining that, not by running from, fixating on or avoiding thoughts. “Dwelling on a thought” in the way you suppose is precisely what a lack of control would look like.
My comments were made in a general sense. There is a difference between having a fleeting sexual thought when a drop dead gorgeous person passes by, and dwelling on that thought to the point of creating a relationship with them based on fantasy progressing to stalking them.
Now, here YOU go derailing your own thread. Are you doing so deliberately or is this intended to be a metaphor to demonstrate that we are “not able to control what comes into our own -]heads/-] threads?” 😃
.
I was responding to a post. If you want to read something else into that, that is your prerogative.
To bring this back on topic…

Not being able to control one’s thinking is a tangential issue that leads to the gay individual claiming they are incapable of controlling their attractions AND using that dysfunction to justify being permitted to “marry” those to whom they happen to be attracted, i.e., not just excused for their sin, but permitted to indulge it. It is a slippery concession that leads inevitably down the road to Flip Wilson’s “The devil made me do it” 😃 or to hard determinism. Pick your poison.
I have no idea what this means. I wish you and PA the joy of arguing with others for the sake of it. It’s not for me.
 
I have no idea what this means. I wish you and PA the joy of arguing with others for the sake of it. It’s not for me.
My intention was to be flip - in a tongue in cheek and only half serious sort of way - to get you to ponder things from a slightly off-kilter angle.

Apparently THAT didn’t work. I won’t quit my day job.

Thanks for the constructive criticism. 👍
 
If the cake shop owner puts up a sign saying that he reserves the right to refuse to serve gay people, then if I’m a flour wholesaler, can I put up a sign saying that I refuse to serve people who refuse to serve gays?

And can my accountant then put up a sign saying that he refuses to serve people who refuse to serve people who refuse to serve people who are gay?

And can his tailor…well, you get the idea.
 
If the cake shop owner puts up a sign saying that he reserves the right to refuse to serve gay people, then if I’m a flour wholesaler, can I put up a sign saying that I refuse to serve people who refuse to serve gays?
That would seem to be an absurd act by the shop owner. There is no justification AFAIK to refuse a person a purchase because he is gay. Refusing to provide service to a SSM event is distinct from supplying a gay person, though the justification for drawing the line there can also be debated. But we should be clear that that line is being drawn in a different place than suggested in your post (where bolded).
 
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