Thoughts on the Pope's New Values

[TheTraditionalMan]

I have posted here yesterday about my concerns between switching my Catholic rite from Western to Eastern, however my research is bringing me to a point of desperation.

I was advised yesterday to stay in my rite and to try help save the ship instead of letting it sink. Now, I have reached a point where I am not sure if it isn’t too late and I should switch and campaign for others to do the same.

My current issue is that I am not sure what the current status of the true Roman Catholic church is. I have read through what must have been hundreds of articles and declarations in the last weeks and I am not getting any smarter. I am seeing quotes and explanations that are making me very proud of the current Pope, and I am seeing things that are really making me question if the Western Church hasn’t been lost already.

I hate to say any of these things, as I myself have always been defending the Holy Father when arguments have arisen. In some situations, Pope Francis really defends the church and its traditional views. Be it abortion, LGBT or any traditional topic. However, at the same time, tolerance towards the LGBT community, as well as tolerance towards abortions (“amended rules to make it easier for priests to forgive women who have had abortions in the confessional.”) is spread, which makes me seriously question if Rome is even still emphasising Christianity. Maybe this is all a test to see if the real believers stay in the Church even in times of struggle, but would our Holy Leader really be advocating for sinful views? Wouldn’t it be the right choice to leave a community that preaches or shows tolerance towards sin? One could argue the Pope is trying to keep as many people faithful as possible, however showing tolerance to these issues will make more people think it’s okay to engage in and will raise the numbers.

I’m hoping that I am somehow falsely informed on the tolerant approaches of Pope Francis, but I feel like I am being ignorant if I do not acknowledge many of the things the Pope has said. For example in the one interview, where he *allegedly * said that a gay man was made like that by God. There have been similar things mentioned by the Pope and the people around him, is the Pope teaching that God makes mistakes? I do not feel right following a church that teaches against the bible. This has brought me closer towards Orthodoxy after considering their Patriarch Kiril is staying true to Christian values. This is a route I never thought I might take. I know this will probably sound ignorant for a couple of people but I am just expressing my current feelings of desperation.

If anyone could help explain to me what is currently going on I would very much appreciate it. I am hoping this is all an illusion, because in my heart I am very connected to Catholicism and yesterday I thought I made great progress through this forum.

Thank you all in advance, peace be upon you all

 

[powerandglory]

I’m sorry you feel that women who have had abortions should not be easily forgiven, and that gay people are “mistakes”. Good luck on your journey.

 

[StatuensNParteDextra]

“amended rules to make it easier for priests to forgive women who have had abortions in the confessional. ”

I sincerely think this was done in order to make it easier for those who have participated in abortion(s) in one way or another to come back to the Church, otherwise they might not have gone through the previous more elongated and public process.

and that gay people are “mistakes”

People make mistakes, whether it be actively participating in homosexuality or otherwise. All need to repent of them to return to sanctifying grace through confession and absolution.

 

[TheTraditionalMan]

As a Christian, it would seem very problematic to be sorry for someone that believes in the word of the Bible. This is exactly what I am seeing in the Western Rite world, people care more about pleasing other people than they do about fulfilling their religious purposes.

The Old Testament has not been made invalid by the New Testament.

 

[powerandglory]

No one said anything about the Old Testament being invalid.
You seem to think that the Pope should not be allowing priests to forgive women who come to confess abortion, and that his comments that God may have made gay people that way imply that God makes mistakes. God NEVER makes mistakes, and yet He has made all of us with all our weaknesses and failings.
Don’t break a leg getting down off your high horse.

 

[Delphinus]

I’m not entirely sure…but it seems like this kind of hostility for someone who is clearly struggling is neither charitable or helpful.

OP you are not alone in your concerns. I can say this, though…I have faith in the church because Christ had faith in his church. It’s seen tough times before and she has always bounced back.

I do think the Pope is acting in good faith though. I worry about where some of this may lead…but I realize that doing this means I don’t trust Christ to defend his church. I think what he may he asking of us is to stay strong, keep loving and praying, and keep up the good fight of spreading the gospel. Even if it seems like leadership may not be acting in good faith, the church is more than just the teachers. We can always act in kindness, love, and patience while resisting sin and gently correcting out brothers and sisters.

 

[Beryllos]

I was advised yesterday to stay in my rite and to try help save the ship instead of letting it sink.

The Church will not sink, even if you were to jump ship. The Church is under threat, but it is certainly not from Pope Francis. There is a storm raging outside the Church, in the world and in our society. Keep calm and carry on. Do your part. There has never been a better time to be a Catholic.

In some situations, Pope Francis really defends the church and its traditional views. Be it abortion, LGBT or any traditional topic. However, at the same time, tolerance towards the LGBT community, as well as tolerance towards abortions…

It’s called hate the sin and love the sinner. Not everyone agrees how to love the sinner. Pope Francis and many others say we need to leave a pathway open for sinners to come back, not build a wall to lock them out. Jesus looked on sinners with love, and that gave them strength to repent and follow him.

showing tolerance to these issues will make more people think it’s okay to engage in

That’s why we don’t just show tolerance, but we also try to show them a better way. Be patient. Sometimes conversion takes time, and we can help by regarding every sinner as a human person, another self, a brother or sister to us, one capable of good and loved by God.

he *allegedly * said that a gay man was made like that by God

The Catechism says something like that: “Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained.” (CCC 2357)

is the Pope teaching that God makes mistakes?

God gave each of us our own cross to bear. I wouldn’t call that a mistake.

If I could make just one suggestion, it is to pray to Jesus personally, as to a friend or brother. He became man, and so he knows about human weakness, imperfection, and suffering. He is here with us. He is there with you. Ask him to guide and strengthen you. Ask him to help the sinner, the Pope, the Church, and the world. Thank him for all the gifts that he gives you, including grace and the sacraments. And listen to him.

 

[po18guy]

I think it might be helpful to read and reflect on John 8:3-11. Even though the woman was caught in adultery (with whom?), Jesus did not condemn her, but made those with accusations question their own sins. He forgave her and admonished her to sin no more. The forgiveness and acceptance into full communion of those with contrite hearts who have aborted children is no different.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Maybe study how heresies were dealt with in the pass.

 

[ralfyman]

Sometimes, I try to remember some of the things that Jesus did, like upend traditional religious beliefs of his time, befriend harlots and tax collectors, bless thieves, and even insists that Samaritans could enter the Kingdom of God, while at the same time recalling the fire and brimstone from John the Baptist and others.

Perhaps the Church has always consisted of that: a struggle between righteous anger and compassion.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You have a problem with sinners being forgiven in the confessional?
That isn’t a problem with the Church or the Pope, it’s a problem with your own charity.

Forgiving those who sin, repent and confess is THE most Christian thing ever. You’re the one moving away from Christianity if you say otherwise.

I’m sorry but when you start complaining about forgiveness, you lose all credibility in my eyes. You sound just like the Pharisees. Or perhaps the brother of the Prodigal Son.

 

[Jbrady]

You have a problem with sinners being forgiven in the confessional?
That isn’t a problem with the Church or the Pope, it’s a problem with your own charity.

There is a certain subset of “Catholics” that get considerable pleasure from the prospect of those they don’t like being consigned to eternal damnation. And it is, as you rightly point out, purely Pharisaic and a parody of real Christianity.

 

[angel12]

tolerance towards abortions (“amended rules to make it easier for priests to forgive women who have had abortions in the confessional. ”) is spread, which makes me seriously question if Rome is even still emphasising Christianity.

How can you think that forgiveness for someone who has repented is a bad thing? How is forgiveness for someone who has repented showing “tolerance for sinful views?” Do you really think Jesus doesn’t forgive someone who has an abortion and later realizes what they’ve done?

I really don’t understand. Please explain why repented sins should not be forgiven.

 

[Jbrady]

Please explain why repented sins should not be forgiven.

Donatism. But that’s a heresy.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

UUh, so from the top of my head.

Making it easier for Priests to forgive abortion is simply a step to help people ask for forgiveness of this- many people who lapsed from faith and had abortions, then converted back had harder time confessing the sin even if they did regret it. Time will tell if this will help, but it’s the step our Pope, Vicar of Christ, went for.

Orthodoxy is not the answer, you have defended Holy Father before so you should know how important See of Peter is, and where is Church of Christ. To abandon Catholicism because there is a harder time, to abandon Apostles because of Judas, is wrong (not saying Pope Francis is Judas, but even if he was it wouldn’t change Pope is Vicar of Christ). I must say I dislike Pope being too tolerant as well- but I am not the Pope, God made Pope Francis the Pope, not me. I must obey and pray for good of all people in and outside of Church. Obedience is key to faith, trust God that He will lead Church forward where He wants it, even if he stray a bit from the course, He will correct us.

Well, about the gay man issue, I’m not sure. Thing is, Pope can make mistakes (God can’t) and Pope Francis did not say that infallibly. Even if Pope was mistaken on such topic, it wouldn’t change faith. Pope Honorius was actually a heretic, but he did not infallibly speak on the topic, just secretly helped heresy and was denounced for it, but he actually did not lose Papacy. Now of course, I do not call our Pope heretic, I am merely presenting “even if” scenario.

Maybe this is all a test to see if the real believers stay in the Church even in times of struggle, but would our Holy Leader really be advocating for sinful views?

You were right to come and ask people in your Church about this, we are Church and we help each other to stay in faith. I’ve had similar thoughts before and this forum dispelled them, I hope same happens for you. Pope can make mistakes, you can disagree with him personally (unless it is ex cathedra statement), but you need to pray to God to resolve this, to help you see if you are wrong and to help Pope see if he is wrong. Devil will try to tempt us to leave Bride of Christ, but we must remain faithful to Her even in hard times. I think this is a test for people like us, but one we can easily overcome because Holy Spirit guides not only us, but also Church herself.

 

[TomH1]

Remember that if you change from the Latin Catholic Church to an Eastern Catholic one the Pope is still the Supreme Pontiff. He is not just the head of the Latin Church. Perhaps if you lived in the Middle East and did not speak English you may not hear so often what Pope Francis says or does. If you simply change canonical church do you believe that somehow you will no longer know what the pope does or what he says? The problem is for a long time now there has been a big personality cult surrounding the pope. It is important, though, to remember that he is not the Church.

I would commend to you the blog Fr Hunwicke’s Mutual Enrichment (here) written by the English Catholic priest Fr John Hunwicke. You will find he is as troubled by things the pope says as you are. However, he acknowledges him as the true pope and has no time for the likes of, say, sedevacantists. Another good blog is Fr Z’s Blog (here). These two priests explain more eruditely than I that these things that may trouble us are the cross we must bear. We must not put down that cross.

 

[HeDa]

1 Never trust anything about what pope Francis says and does in reports from secular media. Secular media have a very limited knowledge, to express it politely, about the Catholic Church. Read the documents/protocols from Vatican sources. My hobby is to find all the errors in the secular news articles and TV reports. Typical example is “Women are going to be ordained as deacons in the Catholic Church” when it was discussed at the meeting with sisters that the Church would look into what the role were and if there was some kind of ordination for women in the early church who were basically doing what sisters are doing today. I can easily spot if the writer is a Catholic when reading news articles.

2 Pope Francis hasn’t changed any doctrine or spoken Ex cathedra on anything that is contrary to the Catholic faith. Taking quotes from out of context is a major problem in social media and secular media. “Who am I to judge?” is spread all over but not in context. People in general have a problem with separating sin (the action) with the sinner (person). For most it is one and the same and an attack on their person. The solution is proper catechesis teaching to both Catholics and the rest of the human race.

3 Pope Francis has, on the other hand, made changes so that decision that could be solved on parish, diocese or Vatican level stay where it should be. An example is most marriage cases that don’t have to go all the way to the Vatican are dealt with on diocese level for a declaration of nullity. He is pastoral and has a focus to make it easier for people to get back to God.

4 A problem that I see, is that most Catholics have not received any further catechism teaching after they received their first Holy Communion or the Sacrament of Confirmation. A lot has happened in the society during the past 40 years. It is easier to send a message to friends on another continents and get a reply within minutes. In the medical field it is possible for a baby born in week 22 to survive. At the same time, it is harder to learn about new discoveries simply because there are so many of them taking place at the same time.
“Why are we not allowed to do IVF treatment when we want to have a baby? A baby is good.” and not understand what the IVF process actually is and why it is not OK according to the Church.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Like another said, your argument just lost any credibility. Your post sounds more like a troll stirring up trouble, given that you brought up one of the key points of the Gospel- repent and believe the Good news!!!

That’s not even credible at that, guy is seriously concerned and asked his fellow churchmen to help him clear doubts. Who are you to lead him away from Christ and call him troll? We should help each other. Fact someone is doubtful about Pope does not mean he’s not a Catholic, especially with so much stuff happening around right now and being reported wrongly by secular media (but I’d add, Pope had some easily confusing statements too).

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Lead him away from the Church? You can’t be serious!! His own hardened heart and lack of compassion towards others wanting to reconcile with the Church is doing that.

He provided us with serious concerns, let’s help him. If he is a troll, his choice, but if he is not let’s not denounce him as one. He just was not informed enough about Pope Francis and his views, which happens a lot today as pointed out above. He misinterpreted the fact Pope made it easier to absolve abortion. Nothing he would be a troll for, come on now. People make mistakes, let’s try to help him not bash him. That would be unChristian, to not correct and help our brother who sincerely asked for it- even if he has different views than we do.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

What would you suggest he do regarding the animosity he has towards others?

I do not see animosity, I just see misinterpretation of Church laws he encountered, which is easy today because internet is full of such sources claiming Pope is bad etc (not the case).