THoughts on the Story of Eden

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  1. We don’t read about God giving any instruction to Eve. So we assume she learned of the prohibtion from man. This means it is possible Adam and not Eve added the prohibtion against touching the fruit. Either way, it highlights the danger of human oral transmission of a divine command.
  2. in 3:5 the snake tells Eve (and maybe Adam) that if they eat fromthe tree, they’ll be like God. Since humans are created in His image (whatever that may mean), only humans would aspire to the divine. Here is the basis of the snake’s appeal.
  3. What is the fruit? The text doesn’t say. The Text of this story doesn’t waste a word on irrelevant details. The importantant thing is that it is forbidden.
  4. In 3:6 we read that Eve “gave to her man with her as well, and he ate.” There really is little to support the common belief that the story blames the woman for enticing the man to eat the fruit. The story itself makes no reference to any act of persuasion. Actually, “her man with her” could suggest that Adam was with her while the snake was speaking. As stated in prior posts the snake speaks iwth plural verbs, suggesting it is including man (although as has been pointed out, it does not necessarily mean the man was present.
  5. in 3:7, “they picked fig leaves and made lioncloths.” Humans still do not invent or fashion anything new. They don’t actuallymake clothing here. The first clothing is made by God in 3:27.
 
11: God asks “Where are you?”: This opens an incredible (even from a literary standpoint) conversation between God and the humans. Man answers “I hid because I was naked.” God springs his trap “Who told you that you were naked?! Have you eanted from the tree…?” The man now invents something – the blame game. "the WOMAN who YOU laced with me, “SHE gave me from the tree, and I ate.” Adam blames the woman, God and attempts to escape responsiblity for his own actions.

Then the woman, a fast learner of the blame game, says “The snake tricked me.” There’s no dialouge with the most famous talking animal because there’s no one left for the snake to blame.
  1. The blame game doesn’t work. God pronounces judgment in reverse order, first the snake, then the woman and then the man.
  2. When God gets to Adam, he uses similar language that Adam used to try to excuse his behavior, :Because YOU listened…" This opening dialoug in the Torah is humorous and fearfully serious. It shows the sexes reacting to guild and fear as well as showing the spiritual divine/human connection and confrontation. It is a great opening to the account of the relationship between God and man that will be revealed in the rest of the Torah.
  3. As for the snake, it is just a snake. In other posts I got caught up in discussing the jewish belief in Satan. To clarify, there is no belief in a cosmic role of the devil. THat is a later christian idea. Certainly, the Torah does not contain such a concept.
 
It’s amazing what the story accomplishes in 24 verses. Just from an etiology standpoint (explanations of the origins of names and practices):
  1. Why snakes do not have legs. Before the curse, snakes must have had legs.
  2. The explanation of the natural enmity between humans and snakes.
  3. Why man dominates woman (at the time the story was written)
  4. Why woman is drawn to man.
  5. The practice of wearing clothing and why we are embarrassed over nudity.
  6. man’s mating with woman.
  7. labor pain
  8. work.
  9. knowldege of good and bad
  10. death. (giving up access to the tree of life)
 
in 3:17, the ground is cursed because of human actions. The enviornmant suffers. This happens again in 4:11 with the story of Noah.

The Hebrew word for Eve is hawwah, the feminine form for “life” (hay). The Semitic root can also mean snake.

(all the prior posts contain information I learned from Richard Friedman’s commentary on the Torah.)
 
May I offer some comments from my perspective of human development. It appears a mistake has been made concerning the understanding of the beginning of sin. The beginning of the story must be understood in terms of two pure innocent beings becoming self-aware through the consequences of choices made in an unknown world. This story must be understood from the perspective of compassion which emanates from love that is the spark that we retain from our original parents.
John Paul II seems to have mistakenly inserted the end of the story of our relationship with God into the beginning of our journey to God. I believe JP II attributed to Eve and Adam a mature knowledge of God and themselves which they never possessed in the first place. The story of Eve and Adam seems to be about two creatures who through the gift of being self-aware have the freedom to explore the infinite unknown in a finite body with finite senses.
God is not known to them except through the senses. Adam must become familiar with the earth and he must also become familiar with his Creator. This seems like an enormous task to me. Being made in the “image” of God, creates in me a desire to identify and understand what particular traits I share in common with God. James 1:14-15 states “…each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death.”
Desire is also a trait that God seems to possess and creation is the result of His desire.
To have full knowledge of creation is also the reality of God. We as an image of God seem to possess the desire to have knowledge of who we are and why we are here. God then begins with Adam by giving him a little on the job training. In the order of portrayed events it is depicted that God plants a garden for him. I would imagine that Adam is observing this. I know that I learn best by observing and doing rather than being told what to do. God creates animals and brings them to Adam. Adam looks at them and names them according to his developing reasoning and observational skills. So he and the animals are made from the same earth but Adam is beginning to know that he is different.
Adam is still a mystery to himself and God is still a mystery too.
The next part of the learning process is to begin to teach Adam to look internally at himself in order to begin to identify in himself what he cannot see with his senses.
Adam has not learned to look internally as yet. He is put to sleep and a part is taken from him and made into a mate. This part of him is unknown but is identified by him through the five senses. She identified by him as “…flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone.” However, she is one step removed from connection to the earth. She is not created from clay. She is created from the unknown and unconscious part of the man who must discover the significance of this gift from God that he is immediately attracted to and identifies as himself but not himself.
She only knows herself through Adam’s description which is incomplete at best. We human beings desire to know who we are. When others tell us who we are through their prejudiced beliefs we are left with a sense of emptiness because the finite mind cannot know the infinite which is at the foundation of our identity. This reaction to another’s description of us awakens a desire to discover who we are and where we come from.
This then brings us to the two trees.
There is no disobedience to God because there is no knowledge nor experience as yet with choice. To use the term disobedience at this point in theological interpretation of the events in the garden seems to be a reflection of the effects of sin that have hardened the human heart and prejudice our understanding of an innocent and naive beginning of our original parents relationship to God, the world, each other and with themselves.
Must go now.
Catholic dogma is that Adam and Eve had supernatural knowledge.
 
  1. As for the snake, it is just a snake. In other posts I got caught up in discussing the jewish belief in Satan. To clarify, there is no belief in a cosmic role of the devil. THat is a later christian idea. Certainly, the Torah does not contain such a concept.
I dissent from you at this point. The serpent is not just an animal sharing the same environment with Adam and Eve, but an evil being that abuses Adam and Eve in order to personally challenge God. The serpent actually targeted God when it worked for the ruin of humans because it openly attempted to make God a coward liar in the sight of Eve and persuaded humans to prefer its own advice to God’s commandment. It therefore presented itself as a rival 🙂
 
Catholic dogma is that Adam and Eve had supernatural knowledge.
It is not dogma. It is a theological position but not dogma. There is no indication that they had supernatural knowledge. They did not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Therefore, they would have no idea about this concept. Supernatural knowledge awakens one to good and evil. If they had supernatural knowledge they would also know that they could not hide from God. They would also know about death which was something they would not have experienced. The tree of Life would give them the knowledge of life and consequently death.
 
It is not dogma. It is a theological position but not dogma. There is no indication that they had supernatural knowledge. They did not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Therefore, they would have no idea about this concept. Supernatural knowledge awakens one to good and evil. If they had supernatural knowledge they would also know that they could not hide from God. They would also know about death which was something they would not have experienced. The tree of Life would give them the knowledge of life and consequently death.
Catholic Dogmas


  1. *]he first man was created by God. (De fide.)
    *] The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
    *] Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
    *] The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
    *] Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
    *] Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
    *] A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
    *] The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
    *] God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
    *] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
    *] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
    *] The donum immortalitatis, i.e., bodily immortality. (De fide.)
    *] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
    *] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
    *] Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
    *] Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
 
Catholic Dogmas


  1. *]he first man was created by God. (De fide.)
    *] The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
    *] Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
    *] The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
    *] Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
    *] Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
    *] A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
    *] The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
    *] God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
    *] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
    *] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
    *] The donum immortalitatis, i.e., bodily immortality. (De fide.)
    *] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
    *] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
    *] Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
    *] Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)

  1. I am sorry I must go to work now.
    I know what you have stated above. However, dogma must be separated from tradition. All of the above must be separated according to dogma and theological tradition.
 
1
. The word “man” first occurs in Gen. 2:23, after woman has been formed. Prior to this, it was “Human”? As discussed earlier, sexual distinction has no meaning unless there are at least two kinds of a species.
The story of Adam follows the pattern of oneness followed by division or union followed by seperation that permeates Sacred Scripture.

Adding to your observation of Adam as the embodiment of all mankind, this is the oneness followed by the creation or perhaps better said the emergence of Eve out of Man as the seperation.

Adam, in a way, is not masculine, or male, untill Eve’s femininity reveals it.
  1. An example of the snake’s attempt to mislead would be the use of confusing sentence structure. “Has God indeed said you may not eat from any tree of the Garden?”
A narcissist may perceive the exclusion of the self as an exclusion of all. When God spoke to Adam and Eve perhaps the serpent heard but heard as one would hear from a ‘middle tree’ perspective. Dwelling in the middle tree may give a view that all the tree’s are just extensions of the one tree in the middle.
Hence;
“Did God really say you couldn’t eat from any tree’s in the garden?”
  1. In Gen. 3:3, Eve incorrectly says that God prohibited her from touching the fruit. Rashi uses this as an example of the principle that if one starts out by adding to a command one may come to take away from it at the end. It is fascinating that this principle is introduced in the opening chapters of Torah, because it is an essential principal that is reinforced at the end of the Torah in Deut. 4:2; and 13:1, where Moses says “You shall not add to the thing that I command you, and you shall not take away from it.”
It seems to be an assumption to me that God didn’t say that.
Wouldn’t Eve’s sin be lying to the serpent?

I kind of take the command to not even touch as a necessary precaution for someone who had never experienced a lie and had no defence mechanism to prevent them from believing once the source of the lie was touched.
 
I kind of take the command to not even touch as a necessary precaution for someone who had never experienced a lie and had no defence mechanism to prevent them from believing once the source of the lie was touched.
Maybe, except that she said that God said that when in fact He didn’t. Unless it would be like: “God said one thing, and I heard two things”?
(Nice to have a son of Adam (Benadam) on a thread on Adam and Eve!!! 😃 )
 
I kind of take the command to not even touch as a necessary precaution for someone who had never experienced a lie and had no defence mechanism to prevent them from believing once the source of the lie was touched.
Maybe, but in doing so she made God say what He didn’t… why did Eve do that then? Her answer reveals how she understood it, and she must have wondered why God asked them not to eat the fruits of THAT tree. Even though He did tell them. So she certainly was bothered. Which is understandable because it was the first time something was forbidden to her. Adam must have felt the same himself.
Why was Eve the one who spoke with the serpent, however, is a mystery…
 
Maybe, but in doing so she made God say what He didn’t… why did Eve do that then? Her answer reveals how she understood it, and she must have wondered why God asked them not to eat the fruits of THAT tree. Even though He did tell them. So she certainly was bothered. Which is understandable because it was the first time something was forbidden to her. Adam must have felt the same himself.
Why was Eve the one who spoke with the serpent, however, is a mystery…
Again you are more likely saying that God didn’t say something He did. Why don’t you believe God told her not to touch it? There is no reason for me to believe Eve would lie.

Eve entered into dialogue with the serpent because she was the weaker of the two. Eve’s purpose is found in Adam and she came out of Adam. She is created to be Adam’s helpmeet. I believe the dialogue with the serpent to be an internal one. The tree in the middle of the garden the selfcenteredness ( tree of good and evil)that opposes Christ centeredness( tree of life). Because of her inherent position as one who came out of man she is more vulnerable…
 
Maybe, except that she said that God said that when in fact He didn’t. Unless it would be like: “God said one thing, and I heard two things”?
(Nice to have a son of Adam (Benadam) on a thread on Adam and Eve!!! 😃 )
I hadn’t thought of that:p thanks. I still don’t know why God didn’t say that:confused:
 
Again you are more likely saying that God didn’t say something He did. Why don’t you believe God told her not to touch it? There is no reason for me to believe Eve would lie.

Eve entered into dialogue with the serpent because she was the weaker of the two. Eve’s purpose is found in Adam and she came out of Adam. She is created to be Adam’s helpmeet. I believe the dialogue with the serpent to be an internal one. The tree in the middle of the garden the selfcenteredness ( tree of good and evil)that opposes Christ centeredness( tree of life). Because of her inherent position as one who came out of man she is more vulnerable…
It seems obvious that GOd didn’t tell Eve or Adam not to touch the tree. First, we have the language, in which God tells Adam not to eat from the tree. Doesn’t mention touching. Then, when God curses the serpent, Eve and Adam, it is only to Adam that He states “…which I commanded you, saying thou shall not eat…”

God doesn’t imply or state that He spoke to Eve directly. It is possible that it was Adam who mistranslated the commandment to Eve and that Adam told Eve they weren’t allowed to touch. But it is clear that God did not tell Eve not to touch.
 
It seems obvious that GOd didn’t tell Eve or Adam not to touch the tree. First, we have the language, in which God tells Adam not to eat from the tree. Doesn’t mention touching. Then, when God curses the serpent, Eve and Adam, it is only to Adam that He states “…which I commanded you, saying thou shall not eat…”

God doesn’t imply or state that He spoke to Eve directly. It is possible that it was Adam who mistranslated the commandment to Eve and that Adam told Eve they weren’t allowed to touch. But it is clear that God did not tell Eve not to touch.
I see it that way too. I find it likely that Eve knew God’s commands through Adam. I find it difficult to believe that the embellishments you attribute to Adam and Eve are characteristic of someone in a state of innocense. I would expect that God’s communication with Adam had finer points not mentioned. This particular point seems apt to mention since it would not have been part of the act of sin but a first act that would lead to the sin that had already happened.

is it so unlikely that God revealed things that pertain to the commandment that aren’t mentioned? I think it’s possible the author was alluding to this by mentioning that Eve introduced this tid bit.
Remember they are still in a state of innocense. They would not defend against evil with a lie if they knew no evil.
 
  1. As for the snake, it is just a snake. In other posts I got caught up in discussing the jewish belief in Satan. To clarify, there is no belief in a cosmic role of the devil. THat is a later christian idea. Certainly, the Torah does not contain such a concept.
I’m sorry Val, I didn’t know you were discussing from a Jewish perspective.😊

Does the Jewish view of Adam and Eve in the Garden include an original innocense that was lost after they ate the apple?
 
Again you are more likely saying that God didn’t say something He did. Why don’t you believe God told her not to touch it? There is no reason for me to believe Eve would lie.

Eve entered into dialogue with the serpent because she was the weaker of the two. Eve’s purpose is found in Adam and she came out of Adam. She is created to be Adam’s helpmeet. I believe the dialogue with the serpent to be an internal one. The tree in the middle of the garden the selfcenteredness ( tree of good and evil)that opposes Christ centeredness( tree of life). Because of her inherent position as one who came out of man she is more vulnerable…
Why I don’t believe that God said that to Eve? (“Don’t even touch the fruits”) Well, you must have read the narrative yourself. What God told Adam and Eve you can find in Gen. 2, 17. He doesn’t say “or touch”, does He?
 
I see it that way too. I find it likely that Eve knew God’s commands through Adam. I find it difficult to believe that the embellishments you attribute to Adam and Eve are characteristic of someone in a state of innocense. I would expect that God’s communication with Adam had finer points not mentioned. This particular point seems apt to mention since it would not have been part of the act of sin but a first act that would lead to the sin that had already happened.

is it so unlikely that God revealed things that pertain to the commandment that aren’t mentioned? I think it’s possible the author was alluding to this by mentioning that Eve introduced this tid bit.
Remember they are still in a state of innocense. They would not defend against evil with a lie if they knew no evil.
Oops! I jumped over this one post and hadn’t read it! It reminds me also of some of God’s Commandments where the Sages would add something to make sure the commandment is accomplished properly, that nothing ambiguous in reading the Commandment itself would make the observant Jew fall…
Not to touch the fruit in order not to fall to the temptation of eating it makes sense… although they could have gone to the extent of building a high circling wall around the tree so as not to see it to remove further temptation… But the knowledge that there is THAT tree would have been would not have removed the temptation completely!!
 
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