Thoughts on the Trinity

[Pepband_Mom]

I think I will just respond here with the hopes of not starting many interesting discussions at the moment.
I have holy envy for the doctrine of “the real presence of Christ” in the Eucharist. I think it is the most clear read of John 6, and it is a beautiful and awe inspiring teaching.
I think the “hypostatic union” is a difficult doctrine built upon the ABSOLUTE distinction between creator and creature and I do not think it necessary based upon the teachings in the Bible.
And, while I reject a number of aspects of deification teachings plastered upon me, I consider myself an adherent of a “full deification.”
Charity, TOm

Hypostatic union = hot topic pondered for centuries especially at the 5 major Christian schools at Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem & Rome - notice that takes up a lot of territory from Italy to Egypt & Turkey.

Tertullian, Against Praxeas, post AD 213:

 "How the Word [Sermo] became flesh, whether as if by being transfigured as in flesh, or by actually being clothed in the flesh.  Certainly it was by actually being clothed in flesh; for it is still necessary to believe that God is immutable and unchanging, inasmuch as He is eternal... In fact, however, we find Him expressly see as God and man, as this same psalm suggests:  "Because God was born man therein, and He built it up by the will of the Father." ...We see a twofold state, not confused but conjoined in one person, Jesus, God and man."

See Psalms especially 86:5

This one is beautiful! states the Son was sent by the Father:

St.Hippolytus of Rome, Against the Heresy of a Certain Noetus, inter AD 200/210:

 "Thus there appeared another besides Himself.  When I say 'another', however, I do not mean that there are two Gods.  Rather, it is as if there were light from light, or water from a fountain, or a ray from the sun.   For there is but one power, which is from the All; and the Father is the All, from whom comes the Power, the Word.  This indeed, is the Mind, which came forth into the world, and was made manifest as the Son of God...   Nor was the flesh able to subsist by itself apart from the Word, because it had its subsistence in the Word.  In this way then, one perfect Son of God has been manifested.  And these indeed are testimonies to the incarnation; and there are many others.  But let us look again to the subject of immediate concern, which is brethren, that the Father's Power, that is , the Word, came down from heaven, and not the Father himself."

St.Gregory of Nazianz to Cledonius the Priest, Against Apollinaris, AD 382 states:

 "...But He is not two Persons!  Far be it!  Both are one from their conjunction, the divine made man and the human deified, or however you wish to express it.  I say diverse elements, contrary to what is had with the Trinity.  There we acknowledge different Persons so as not to confound the hypostases, and not different elements, for the Three are one and the same in their Godhood."

The Word, God’s only begotten Son, cloaked Himself in flesh = the Incarnation for which I for one love to celebrate!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Tom, you might find it useful to change your “religion” statement to “Mormon heretic”

Or FAIR apologist.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Humans have a propensity for thinking truth is defined by feeling. This approach is hedonism, it’s slogan, “if it feels good do it”. Mormonism takes hedonism into a divine order. Its God is hedonistic. Its members are hedonistic. The fruit of this is a solid belief in full deification of self. I am a GOD, and damn it feels so good to know this.

Spiritually speaking, it is the “hit bottom” of feel-good “theology”.

 

[kimg901]

Humans have a propensity for thinking truth is defined by feeling. This approach is hedonism, it’s slogan, “if it feels good do it”. Mormonism takes hedonism into a divine order. Its God is hedonistic. Its members are hedonistic. The fruit of this is a solid belief in full deification of self. I am a GOD, and damn it feels so good to know this.

Spiritually speaking, it is the “hit bottom” of feel-good “theology”.

This is a little off topic but I think it relates to the “Burning of the Bosom” and what your talking about Becca. Even in my troubling times (when I no longer believed in God and for a lack of better words, hated Him) I still had that “feel good feeling” when I did something for someone. I didnt need God but the “Truth” I knew was that it felt good. Now I didnt believe no more so how in the world did I have those feelings? Its a human sense and feelings are deceiving to us. But I now know the truth without such feelings.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Tom,

I am on now with this thread, because I know that Mormon baptisms are not valid because they are not Trinitarian. And knowing you are a former Catholic, and most former Catholics who are now Mormon I pick up on. The Holy Trinity is the big contention between Mormons and Catholics, among many other things.

So I am suspect, sorry to say, of why you are coming on here with the type and manner of questions you are presenting.

I am also finding out Mormon apologists are going over more and more of our teachings, back to the early church fathers, to ironically prove that Joseph Smith was correct.

I have the impression that Mormon apologists already know that they have had ongoing changing ideas about their religion, while always claiming they are the only ones who have a creed, albeit always changing, that is not an abomination.

I also know it was a great victory for the Mormon religion when the mayor of Rome allowed them to build a temple in the countryside just outside Rome. I read something and do not know if it is true, or not but in competing with the Vatican, that temple that is going up on a 15 acre site is going to have a cross on top of it instead of Moroni, the angel. Is that true?

I am reading some Mormon re-writes and re-interpretations on Catholic thought.

Is it the intent of Mormon apologists to glean all our teachings and then overlay them with Mormon concepts of becoming gods, to interject such teachings into ours, and then now with the Mormon temple coming up, and reflecting as much as possible Catholic manner of teaching and reasoning, to simply re-create Mormonism to subtly contradict Catholicism in time…so then people are confused?..and then decide there is not much difference between Mormonism or Catholicism?, and the people are so nice, why not join us instead? We are not much different and we use all the early church fathers, and we have this idea of the Trinity that has evolved and progressed, that our baptisms are valid???

I mean, coming here…to obtain subtle distinctions and then go back on them and recreate them into Mormonism?

There was this fellow, Zerinius, a former Muslim now Mormon, who would come here to glean information, and truly he had various points about God that were totally unrecognizable to me, and then to find out he was a former Muslim made sense. But he also spent time studying our religion, and then finally came back out from one of his sites showing he, in his mind, totally demolished the Catholic thought on transubstantiation to his followers. I found it not only very upsetting, but felt used, and then to see him destroy any interest in the sacred presence of the Eucharist was to me on the point of a sacrilege and blasphemy. He was soon after banned.

I just don’t see how anyone can come into another religion, draw from it, and then stake it as their own with its context, intent and purpose compromised and then made for another purpose…to become as a god, which totally violates the will of God, and is the work of the Serpent.

Please clarify what your purpose is here on the Holy Trinity with the type of constructs you are relaying about our creed.

Surely our creed is no abomination.

 

[KathleenGee]

I also think that considering the integrity of our faith and those who have developed our thought from ancient times and from different jurisdictions of Churches in those times, Mormonism cannot draw on them.

If I recall, the foundations of Mormonism are with the Angel Moroni, the golden plates, etc., ancient lost tribes in America…two completely different sources of faith. There is nothing in foundational Christianity that can connect to Moroni, etc. Follow me?

 

[RebeccaJ]

This is a little off topic but I think it relates to the “Burning of the Bosom” and what your talking about Becca. Even in my troubling times (when I no longer believed in God and for a lack of better words, hated Him) I still had that “feel good feeling” when I did something for someone. I didnt need God but the “Truth” I knew was that it felt good. Now I didnt believe no more so how in the world did I have those feelings? Its a human sense and feelings are deceiving to us. But I now know the truth without such feelings.

Truth is a Person, Jesus Christ. God became man and dwelt among us. Who taught, pick up your cross and follow me. Mormons lay down the cross, not only figuratively, but quite literally. God is most profoundly known in compassion, which means, to suffer with another. God’s charity towards us, made clear on the cross. A place of suffering, most definitely not a place of “feel good”, least of all for Jesus.

We are not without joy, and compassion should never be construed as seeking unhappiness, or forgoing joy. Christ is Risen, alleluia! Out redemption is our joy, but this is not a “feeling about truth”, it IS truth, because Jesus Christ is Truth.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Please clarify what your purpose is here on the Holy Trinity with the type of constructs you are relaying about our creed.

I am interested to know the answer to this as well, as I suspect the charity of people here is being taken advantage of. A Catholic turned Mormon apologist, and twisting Catholic writings into something they are not, and never will be. The very definition of apostasy, another “gospel”.

Yet Christ’s Church still stands.

 

[Cavaradossi]

TOm,

The term homoousion when applied to God was not used by the Greek-speaking Christians in a generic sense. The ousia of God is completely ineffable and transcends all being and essential differences, which precludes it from being either a genus or species. The term homoousion serves not to signify how Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ontologically one (numerically, generically, etc.), but only attests to the fact of their oneness.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think people should see what Tom is capable of producing in drawing a most fine line between Catholics, early Church fathers and the Mormon beliefs, he himself a former Catholic.

My instructor under Archbishop Levada had us go to CCC460, the only section in the universal catechism that needed clarification.

We become adopted sons and daughters through baptism, but we are forever creatures but partake in the divine life with God, and in heaven, we have eternity to grow in the divine life, but not as ourselves becoming gods but growing in love and praise forever in union with God.

Jesus Christ will stand glorified and triumphant forever on the throne of God. Look at the final passages of heaven…but there is none in there from St. John the Evangelist stating we will become gods and have our own domains.

 

[KathleenGee]

Waiting…

 

[TOmNossor]

Kathleen and All,
I have updated my “religion” to CoJCoLDS.
It is generally my opinion that the appellation “Mormon heretic” is not a positive in fact it may be an attempt to “poison the well.”
The appellation “FAIR Apologist” is not a positive, is meant in a derogatory sense, and is an attempt to “poison the well.”

Kathleen, I said to you:

Kathleen,
…
I write the above because it is true, not so that you might think I am just here being a nice guy. If I had infinite time I would make a rebuttal to every criticism of my church and offer plenty of opposition to evidence provided here for Catholicism. I do not currently think it at all likely I will be Catholic again.

So you asked:

So I am suspect, sorry to say, of why you are coming on here with the type and manner of questions you are presenting. …

Please clarify what your purpose is here on the Holy Trinity with the type of constructs you are relaying about our creed.

I think the above explains my purpose in general and specific. I will not have time to rebut all criticism of my church and I will not have time to respond to all poor pro-Catholic apologetic arguments, but if I could I would.
The basic structure is:
Mormonism is false because of ABC. I typically think that ABC is either untrue or doesn’t demonstrate what the poster claims.
Catholicism is true and therefore Mormonism is not a restoration because of XYZ. I typically think that XYZ is either untrue or doesn’t demonstrate what the poster claims.

This thread began in part due to a comment about the logicalness of the Catholic view of the Trinity and the polytheism of the LDS view of the Trinity.

cont…

 

[KathleenGee]

Our restoration is already at work Tom for 2000 years in Jesus Christ.

Go back and look at the last pages of Revelations…there is nothing in the Word of God to justify us to becoming gods except that we partake in the divine life.

GOD IS LIFE.

The perfections of Jesus Christ are all the virtues of the Holy Spirit, and the life of Christ, His redeeming and saving work is lifelong in us, we are called to meek and humble of heart, a servant…not a god.

When we partake in the life of Christ, then we find there is no need.

When we go to heaven, we will have no need to be anything or have anything because God Himself will fill ALL our needs.

We look forward to a new heaven and earth that Christ will create…not us created as gods, and it will be the new Jerusalem and it will be most beautiful and we will all live in unity, in communion, peace, harmony and draw on the perfections of Christ, the fountain of all grace…His Precious Blood that we receive today.

We must let the Lord reveal all that He has waiting for us — in His time. Faith is mystery and walking into mystery.

Let go and let God.

Let God be God and not you.

 

[kimg901]

Kathleen and All,
I have updated my “religion” to CoJCoLDS.
It is generally my opinion that the appellation “Mormon heretic” is not a positive in fact it may be an attempt to “poison the well.”
The appellation “FAIR Apologist” is not a positive, is meant in a derogatory sense, and is an attempt to “poison the well.”

Kathleen, I said to you:

So you asked:

I think the above explains my purpose in general and specific. I will not have time to rebut all criticism of my church and I will not have time to respond to all poor pro-Catholic apologetic arguments, but if I could I would.
The basic structure is:
Mormonism is false because of ABC. I typically think that ABC is either untrue or doesn’t demonstrate what the poster claims.
Catholicism is true and therefore Mormonism is not a restoration because of XYZ. I typically think that XYZ is either untrue or doesn’t demonstrate what the poster claims.

This thread began in part due to a comment about the logicalness of the Catholic view of the Trinity and the polytheism of the LDS view of the Trinity.

cont…

So what is it that you think is so true about your religion? There is a great amount of evidence that supports your religion not being true but yet you seem to not want to acknowledge it. Are you afraid that all you (and every mormon) have been taught is false? I cant see why you would want to continue to believe such lies. But you know what? This is between you and God. Its your soul that is in trouble, not mine.

 

[Jerusha]

the appellation “Mormon heretic” is not a positive in fact it may be an attempt to “poison the well.”

Aww— Tom, at least you can’t say I didn’t try. :hey_bud: That long acronym is quite accurate, given your refusal to respond to our criticisms of the BoM.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The appellation “FAIR Apologist” is not a positive, is meant in a derogatory sense, and is an attempt to “poison the well.”

a) FAIR apologist is accurate. Whether or not it is derogatory I suppose depends on your view of FAIR.
b) What well is being poisoned?

 

[GaryTaylor]

I will not have time to rebut all criticism of my church and I will not have time to respond to all poor pro-Catholic apologetic arguments, but if I could I would

The only poor apologetics have been yours. You present lacking “opinions” with no basis in “Christian” history. The Trinity/Incarnation is “basic” Christianity.

Though I can relate to your “feelings” I feel the same way about the “non- chronological, non-historical pick and choose theological arguments you propose”.

 

[Jerusha]

a) FAIR apologist is accurate. Whether or not it is derogatory I suppose depends on your view of FAIR.
b) What well is being poisoned?

Given the recent action to defang nasty Mormon apologists, I should think that Tom would take it as a compliment. Oh, well, whatever.

 

[504Katrin]

To me this is not a matter of opinion or thoughts. The bible talks about this. The commandment says that there’s only one G-d. This is what the Eternal says. It won’t change ever. Hence, the question of two or three persons, or three in one is redundant.

 

[itullian]

i’ve never had a problem with the Trinity.
different parts of the whole.